Fowlers Compound Pacific and the Lemon 4-8-0

[asmay2002]

I should think it would have long lap long travel valves and multi ring pistol valve heads seeing as the Fowler 7F 0-8-0 of 1930 had a thoroughly modern 'engine' portion, let down innadequate axle boxes. Thanks for the info on wheelbase.

 

With smaller wheels and no inside cylinders, the 'Claughton/Patriot' boiler could be pitched lower. I find this particular engine a quite fascinating might-have-been.

 

You might be right about the valves but at about that time the LMS couldn't seem to make its mind up with some locos getting poor ones (3P 2-6-2T) and others getting it spot on e.g. Fowler 2-6-4T. Agreed it's an interesting loco. There are others in Loco Panorama which are equally good "might have beens", the 2-8-0 version of the Crab and the Beames 2-8-0 (basically an outside cylindered 7F) for example.

[scots region]

I have a number of 'never were' drawing contained within some quite good books, quite handy if I ever want to built a Z scale model, but as I model in 4MM , just how do you blow up drawings from a book to that scale?

[Sailor Charon]

I have a number of 'never were' drawing contained within some quite good books, quite handy if I ever want to built a Z scale model, but as I model in 4MM , just how do you blow up drawings from a book to that scale?

Possibly scanning them at a higher resolution than normal? I know I had to photocopy one diagram at 120% to get it to N scale...

[scots region]

Possibly scanning them at a higher resolution than normal? I know I had to photocopy one diagram at 120% to get it to N scale...

 

 

How do I set the resolution of a scanner?

[Blandford1969]

If you just want to blow them up, then a photocopier can do the job for you.

 

The other way is to prepare your own drawings, there is nothing more satisfying than watching an engine come to life on the page to then make a model from. Its quite easy, it just takes some time.

[scots region]

If you just want to blow them up, then a photocopier can do the job for you.

 

The other way is to prepare your own drawings, there is nothing more satisfying than watching an engine come to life on the page to then make a model from. Its quite easy, it just takes some time.

 

 

Do you hand draw or use a computer system? if its the former, I am very impressed

[Sailor Charon]

How do I set the resolution of a scanner?

It's been a long time since I scanned anything, so maybe I put that badly. Indeed, I've not had been able to use my scanner since my PC laptop packed in. It's not OSX compatible. But I seem to remember there's usually a way you can adjust the size at which you import the image. And the bigger sizes work out larger than the original image.

[scots region]

It's been a long time since I scanned anything, so maybe I put that badly. Indeed, I've not had been able to use my scanner since my PC laptop packed in. It's not OSX compatible. But I seem to remember there's usually a way you can adjust the size at which you import the image. And the bigger sizes work out larger than the original image.

 

 

I see, thanks for the help

[Blandford1969]

Do you hand draw or use a computer system? if its the fromer, I am very impressed

 

Your very kind, the drawings have lots of annotations as I used them to develope etched sheets.It may sound totally daft, but as yet despite only just turning 40 I prefer drawing by hand, I get much more of the feel of the loco or building - I'm currently working on station buildings on the Dorset Central Railway.

 

Kind regards

 

Duncan

[scots region]

I've finish drawing up a list of names for the first ten pacifics, I'm aiming for a class size of 25-30. I've chosen 'Royal Explorers' as the theme, this is just a preliminary draft, so feel free to point out mistakes.

 

 

LMSR 4-6-2 8P ‘ROYAL EXPOLORERS’ CLASS, DESIGNED BY ‘SIR HENRY FOWLER’

 

6000: EDWARD LEICESTER ATKINSON

 

6001: ELKAN NATHAN ADLER

 

6002: FRANK BICKERTON

 

6003: HENRY ROBERTSON BOWERS

 

6004: PHILIP CARTERET

 

6005: MAJOR ROBERT ERNEST CHEESMAN

 

6006: GEORGE JONAS WHITAKER HAYWARD

 

6007: JOHNATHAN LAWSON

 

6008: DAVID LIVINGSTONE

 

6009: JOHNATHAN FEARN

 

do post your own suggestions and whatever extra imformation you wish to include

[dana]

Although he was american , dont forget Stanley who searched for Dr livingstone .

[Weekday Cross]

Don't forget your maritime explorers....

 

Surely Captain Cook was the greatest of them all, by a mile?

 

Then there was John Cabot, who "discovered" Newfoundland and more or less started the British Empire.

[scots region]

thanks, great suggestions

[kevinlms]

If Andersens crowd in Fowler's days had any involvement, the Pacific would have had 4F axleboxes and the engine part would have been a complete bollox like the Beyer Garratt and 7F 0-8-0. Fowler didn't do the LMS any favours and yet where would we enthusiasts be without the locomotive designs he put his signature to.

 

Agreed, the Garratt's would have been much better if BP had been left to get on with the job. How could the LMS have ordered another 30 after 3 years of operating experience with the first batch and basically not make any design changes? The axle boxes in particular made them a poor tool.

OK, the rotating bunkers were added later, but not to all 33 locos - why was this? No wonder BP, later virtually disowned them, dispite the 1930 order being the largest single order of the Garratt type.

 

Kevin Martin

[kevinlms]

My scanner is not big enough for the 4-8-0 and Compound so I will have to get the drawings reduced elsewhere before i can scan. In relation to the comment on the wheel size the diagram in Cox's book does indeed show 4' 8 1/2" drivers. I felt when drawing it it was too harsh and would have got curved bottoms to the cab so that's what i drew.

 

In the meantime and slightly off topic here are drawings of some of the others the first is the Superheated freight engine, it would have had a six wheeled tender that looks like a cross between a WD and Ivat tender. It was also going to have Allen valve gear

 

Secondly is the 1944 proposal for a 2-4-2. while i was drawing it I wondered about the bunker and ended up drawing two versions. 1 with flat sides and the second raved in to give improved rear vison - Cox's drawing gives no indication of what it would have been like.

 

The final one of this threesome was the 1942 proposal for a Stanier 0-6-0 which I quite like, coupled with a 3500 Stanier tender

 

I will dig out the etchings of these which give a bit more of an idea.

 

Finally here is the front end of the 4-8-0 as a taster- I think it would have had real bulk

 

They look like the Greater GWR, especially the 0-6-0 & 2-4-2T's. Did they have copper chimneys too?

 

Kevin Martin

[21st Century Railfan]

The first 0-6-0 immediately made me think, "Hey! You ruined a Q1!" To be honest, I like the square shape on the Charlies. Also, the 2-4-2T reminds me of my custom class or CBR 2/4. Only major difference is this one has Walchaerts gear. Mine has Stepheson. http://trainboy2.deviantart.com/art/CBR-2-5-503712386?ga_submit_new=10%253A1447044426&ga_type=edit&ga_changes=1

[Blandford1969]

I wonder if the first 0-6-0 of which there was a class 2 and 4 were inspired by the Q1. The 2-4-2 is based on the layout by Cox, bearing in mind the wartime conditions they were trying to reduce the time to prep, even the Great Western got in on the act with their 15xx.

 

I must get to actually do some modelling and get these moved forwards, however children and other things always seem to stop me at the moment.

[Sheffield]

Although I have seen no evidence to support my thought, I have wondered if James Anderson involved himself so much in the specification for the Garrats and what became the Royal Scots because he lacked faith in Fowler's ability to control the design process and produce a satisfactory result. Given the compound pacific design perhaps not without justification.

After the grouping the LMS carried out trails of the main classes it had received from pre-grouping companies, and determined that the Midland designs were the most effective and efficient. E S Cox, no lover of things Derby, was constrained to admit the LMS did the right thing when it made the Midland designs the basis of the first standard designs. Thus the 4F became the standard LMS goods loco. It must have seemed reasonable to Anderson that the Garratts the LMS was buying with LMS money for LMS use should comply with LMS standards not Beyer's standards, and therefor this meant the 4F. Bear in mind that a lot of the poor reputation the 4F acquired came after the LMS changed the specs for the axlebox bearing material and lubricants to save money in the 1930s.

If we are to blame Anderson for hobbling the Garratts with undersize axle boxes, perhaps we should save an equal measure of critism for those who came after him. That is Stanier and his men. A standard gauge inside cylinder inside Stephenson valve gear loco is always going to find difficulty in accommodating adequate axle boxes, but the Garratts had no such restrictions, not even a need to consider the firebox and ashpan. There seesm to be little reason why the Garratts could not have been subsequently fitted with better longer axle boxes, and if this had been carried out at general repair, no great expense. There seems to have been plenty of money to modify Stanier's early designs to make them work properly, but no willingness to make worthwhile improvements to any earlier designs.

[Corbs]

 

The final one of this threesome was the 1942 proposal for a Stanier 0-6-0 which I quite like, coupled with a 3500 Stanier tender stanier 060.jpg

 

 

 

I rather like this one, am wondering if an approximation could be made using a GBL Black 5 and a Hornby Thomas chassis...

[andrewshimmin]

Has anyone built a model of the Fowler Compound Pacific or the Lemon 4-8-0? If so, any photos?

[Blandford1969]

I have done some etchings, but no idea when I will be able to start with them, due to lack of time with my job, young children, etc

[Sir Hadyn]

Saw an almost complete coarse scale 0 gauge pacific today, built by Alan Middleton of the Furness Railway Trust. He hopes to have it finished and painted around July

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

I have done some etchings...

 

I'd ask to come up and see them; except that seeing you have kids there might be an objecting wife?

 

The Fowler Compound pacific proposal remains a huge 'might have been' for me in UK steam. What if it had got built, and inevitably was deeply flawed. Might there have been enough pressure to make it work that the consultancy of the Master might have been sought? Had Andre Chapelon ever had a decent size UK compound loco on which to direct improvements, the whole course of UK steam loco history thereafter might have run significantly differently.

[Horsetan]

....Had Andre Chapelon ever had a decent size UK compound loco on which to direct improvements, the whole course of UK steam loco history thereafter might have run significantly differently.

 

I think his ingenuity might have been stretched, given the loading gauge restrictions, but he more than anyone understood how steam should work. The other point is that British crews were not trained to the degree that their French counterparts were, and it would have taken a revolution in British locomotive thinking to institute the kind of system of academic study that the French drivers and firemen took for granted.

 

The tragedy was that he was undermined by his own country's railway policy (not to mention internal politics) before he had a chance to really get going.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

 I was recently given the master's book in its English translation, and it is such a good read. If only, if only he could have worked his magic somewhere in the UK...

 

... The other point is that British crews were not trained to the degree that their French counterparts were, and it would have taken a revolution in British locomotive thinking to institute the kind of system of academic study that the French drivers and firemen took for granted...

I have had cause to wonder what 'bang for the buck' the French railways got from this investment in training; compared to the UK system of taking in boys and hoping they would learn enough on maintenance tasks before being let loose on the road, initially as firemen. Because while boilers did occasionally let go in the UK during C20th, due to both crew being under-informed/misled by equipment (USATC 2-8-0 a particular example of the latter) and their own mismanagment; the French railway also had such events, and I believe in greater number in proportion to locomotives operated. No one actually succeeded in flying a loco boiler rocket style during this period in the UK, while the French certainly did.