Burkitt Posted May 22, 2011 Share Posted May 22, 2011 Back last year I had a go at building a 1938 stock train in N scale, mainly just to see if it was possible. After a lot of work I came to the conclusion that in theory it was, but in practice there were too many problems with the method of construction. However, I still hoped to build an N scale tube train, especially as I had already bought a Kato Portram to power it. Having been following the various threads on 3D printing recently, I've been wanting to have a go at using this new technique, and discovering that Sketchup can now be used to create models for Shapeways plus the release of the Frosted Ultra Detail material has spurred me into action. Instead of 1938 stock I'm trying a Northern line 1995 stock train this time, as the simpler shape is easier to create a computer model of. Designing the model to use the Frosted Ultra Detail material allows walls down to 0.3mm thick and details as fine as 0.1mm. There are a few corners which should be rounded but I have modelled squared, due to the limitations of Sketchup/my skills with it. I'll sort these out on the real thing with a bit of wet and dry paper. The model consists of a separate body and chassis which should fit neatly together. Using the tiny Kato Portram motor bogies means the mechanism will not protrude above the height of the tops of the seats, and I may even be able to reduce it from that once I've seen how it all goes together on the real thing. So far I've modelled a driving car, but the modular nature of the 1995 stock design means adapting it into an intermediate car should be an easy task. Right now my computer is churning away scaling down the Sketchup model from full size to 1:148*. Once that's done I need to convert it to the right format for Shapeways, send it off and hopefully will have it for real within a few weeks. Paul *Out of curiosity I calculated that printing the model to full size in Frosted Ultra Detail would cost approximately £60million, about as much as five real six car tube trains. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tricky-CRS Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 Sounds good, please keep us updated. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium DIW Posted May 23, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 23, 2011 That is a rather good drawing you have made there, Paul. Brings back the memories of test trains! As a curiousity, how long did it take for your machine to perform the re-scaling? Presumably (since it is just a mathematical process) it would take the same amount of time to reduce to any chosen scale? Cheers, Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobD Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 Nice drawing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Revolution Ben Posted May 23, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 23, 2011 Hi Paul, That looks very good indeed. I have not tried this technique for myself but it clearly has potential and I look forward to following your progress. What are your plans for glazing? Presumably you considered - and dismissed - the idea of casting the chassis block in clear, with glazing that lines up and, perhaps, "clicks in" to the bodyshell? cheers Ben A. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 Wow, impressive. discovering that Sketchup can now be used to create models for Shapeways ... that's is dangerous news to hear as I have dabbled a bit with Sketchup. That just opens up sooo many possible doors Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sailor Charon Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 Now that is really nice. And it's given me ideas as well. Perhaps it's just as well I don't understand CAD software. But yes, I'll be watching this with interest. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Revolution Mike Posted May 23, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 23, 2011 Nice work - any chance you will make them available to others through the Shapeways shop once you have done the intermediate cars? Thanks Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 That looks really good, I will be fascinated to see how it turns out. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burkitt Posted May 23, 2011 Author Share Posted May 23, 2011 Thanks all. As a curiousity, how long did it take for your machine to perform the re-scaling? Presumably (since it is just a mathematical process) it would take the same amount of time to reduce to any chosen scale? My first attempt at re-scaling was still going after 24 hours, at which point I decided it probably wasn't ever going to finish. I'm now trying to re-scale each module of the train individually, which should be a bit less of a strain on my computer. Fortunately this has given me the opportunity to make a couple of improvements to the model before getting it printed. What are your plans for glazing? Presumably you considered - and dismissed - the idea of casting the chassis block in clear, with glazing that lines up and, perhaps, "clicks in" to the bodyshell? All the current generation tube stock trains have a distinctive type of flush glazing with a black area around the edge of the pane, which I puzzled for a while over the best way to represent. In the end I have decided to try using thin transparent plastic which will fit into an inset in the bodyshell. The inset can be painted black before fitting the glazing to recreate the effect seen on the prototype. I hadn't considered including the glazing in the chassis block - as far as I'm aware none of the materials offered by Shapeways are transparent enough to be used as glazing. Nice work - any chance you will make them available to others through the Shapeways shop once you have done the intermediate cars? Once I've checked that the design works I do hope to make it available in the Shapeways shop. Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BernardTPM Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 All the current generation tube stock trains have a distinctive type of flush glazing with a black area around the edge of the pane, which I puzzled for a while over the best way to represent. In the end I have decided to try using thin transparent plastic which will fit into an inset in the bodyshell. The inset can be painted black before fitting the glazing to recreate the effect seen on the prototype. I thought that might be what you had planned - given you have the dimensions on computer, are you going to get the glazing laser cut? It would keep the radiised corners consistent. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burkitt Posted May 23, 2011 Author Share Posted May 23, 2011 I hadn't thought of laser cutting, to be honest, as it tends to be pretty expensive. But it would make the glazing neater and easier to do, so I'll have to see if I can find anywhere doing it for a good rate. After some trial and error with various orders to do different processes in, I have finally managed to scale the model down to N while keeping all the modules perfectly aligned. Of course it doesn't actually show up that it's any smaller, which is as things should be. I also made a couple of modifications to the model - adding cab front door handrails, the handle hole on the cab side door, and fine grooves to represent the joins between each door and the car body or adjacent door panel. I've also slightly adjusted the front destination indicator to more accurately depict the 1995 stock design - it was previously closer to the slightly narrower 1996 stock version. Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Nile Posted May 23, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 23, 2011 Excellent work Paul.I'm waiting for some FUD test prints before I dive in and design some things myself.That's if I ever get enough time.I've only dabbled with sketch-up so far. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tricky-CRS Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 I know a couple of people with laser cutters. It may not cost to much. PM me when you are ready. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southernboy Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 I'm very interested in this 3D technique as a solution for reproducing N gauge tube trains, and other currently unobtainable models. But can I ask what sort of price this is costing? And how difficult/easy is it to get your head around producing the drawings? And final question: Are you planning a layout - and if so any idea what form it will take? Sorry for all the questions - curiosity has the better of me! Many thanks in advance, Mark Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burkitt Posted May 24, 2011 Author Share Posted May 24, 2011 Tricky-CRS, many thanks for your offer, I'll definitely PM you once I get to the glazing. Mark, so far I haven't uploaded the model to Shapeways yet so I don't know what the exact price will be. But based on the cost per cm^3 for Frosted Ultra Detail of $4.39 and a rough guess at the volume of the model in N scale, I estimate the cost to be between £10 and £20 per car. Thinking about how easy it is to make the computer drawings/model, I've been using Sketchup for about five years and this is the trickiest project I've done with it so far. Creating basic blocky models in Sketchup is very simple, and can be learnt within a few minutes of downloading the programme. There are some excellent video tutorials on the Sketchup site which teach all the main processes and a lot of the tips and tricks which are otherwise not apparent in the program. Producing a model like the 95 stock car, with many surfaces curving in different directions and curved faces intersecting, is more complex, and requires some careful thinking about how to use the modelling processes available in Sketchup to produce the desired shape. I have found the most difficult step of all to be making the model suitable for 3D printing, because tiny errors of alignment equivalent to fractions of a millimetre at full size can make it unprintable. Thus a model which looks fine and would be perfect for purely virtual use in renderings etc can be useless for printing. Making the model in such a way as to avoid these errors, and tracking them down and rectifying them when they occur, has proven to be quite a challenge. Depending on how powerful your computer is, there can also be issues with the sheer size of the model and whether it can cope. I've had to re-think my approach to certain tasks after my original attempt has caused Sketchup to crash. As to a layout, when I started I didn't have any plans for one, but having seen the 2011 challenge I have been considering doing a small diorama to give the train a home. It depends on how well the stock turns out and how much progress I make on my still unfinished 2010 challenge layout. Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobD Posted May 24, 2011 Share Posted May 24, 2011 You may find that you need to 'repair' the model prior to upload to Shapeways. I use http://www.netfabb.com/basic.php It is fairly easy to use and this free version usually sorts out my minor issues. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burkitt Posted May 24, 2011 Author Share Posted May 24, 2011 That's brilliant Bob, Netfabb has just proven very useful getting rid of some previously unnoticed minuscule holes. Thank you very much. Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burkitt Posted May 24, 2011 Author Share Posted May 24, 2011 All holes have been sorted out and I've now placed my order with Shapeways. The cost was a little more than I expected at £28 for the body, chassis, and bogies for a single car, but it still seems pretty reasonable. Hopefully the real thing should be here within the next ten days. Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
50031Hood Posted May 24, 2011 Share Posted May 24, 2011 I'll be very keen to see how this turns out, not least to see how detailed 'Frosted Ultra Detail' actually is. Out of curiosity, where did you obtain the original drawings of the 1995 stock? I've been trying to create an N gauge model of the 1983/86 stock but other than the major dimensions, cannot find any detailed drawings. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobD Posted May 24, 2011 Share Posted May 24, 2011 Have you gone for FUD?? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southernboy Posted May 24, 2011 Share Posted May 24, 2011 Paul: Many thanks for your detailed reply to my query. Much appreciated. Mark Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
grahame Posted May 24, 2011 Share Posted May 24, 2011 This is a very interesting thread and, like many others, am keen to see how it turns out. Keep the updates flowing, and any news of development of the other cars to complete a train. G. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burkitt Posted May 24, 2011 Author Share Posted May 24, 2011 Thanks all. 50031 Hood, the drawings are from the London Underground Rolling Stock Data Sheet, which is available as a PDF from the TfL website: http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/foi/Rolling_stock_Data_Sheet_2nd_Edition.pdf . It contains drawings of all the current tube trains except 2009 and S stock, but unfortunately not withdrawn classes, so 1983 stock isn't there. Bob, yes I've ordered it in Frosted Ultra Detail - hence the rather high price. I designed the model to the specifications for FUD, so I don't expect it would have worked in any other material anyway. With regard to my idea for a layout mentioned above, I'm considering doing a diorama based on Brockley Hill station on the unbuilt Northern Heights extension of the Northern Line. I've started a topic on it in the 2011 challenge section: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/37837-brockley-hill-northern-line/ Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Kris Posted May 25, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 25, 2011 Very nice, it will be interesting to see the results. Did you use the free or the pro version of sketchup? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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