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Liverpool Lime Street (2mm Finescale)

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Here's my idea for a Challenge entry - more or less a scale model of a corner of Liverpool Lime Street. It would be in 2mm scale.

 

The plan has been adapted from one in "LNWR Portrayed" by Jack Nelson. It just fits within the maximum footprint allowed. This book also has drawings of the building etc.. I have one or two photos as well, so I have plenty to work from.

 

I tend to work far better from real places than just making something up.

 

Should I do it or shouldn't I???????????????????:huh:

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Since no-one said no, the project is a goer!:yahoo:

 

I now have an idea of what the site looked like from an old Ordnance Survey map, to compare with the plan in Jack Nelson's book. Jack's plan misses off a large building - presumably staff accommodation - just to the left of the turntable, next to the retaining wall. Beyond the retaining wall was a large tobacco factory.

 

Also, the map shows that the tracks leading off to the left disappeared into a hole just under the station roof and into some loading bays behind the station buildings. No room for that in the diorama for the 2011 challenge - but as a future extension it would be interesting to model.

 

The next stage is to plan it properly.The main issue is to rotate the plan to get the best out of the space available. The turntable is 50ft diameter, so none of the tracks need to accommodate any longer locos. That means the sector plate can be quite small. I will try and make the sector plate slightly longer than this though, as I could then run a railcar (or something similar) into the platform from the hidden sidings. This would add to the variety of operations.

 

More in a few days...

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I thought I was trying to squeeze a lot into a small space, but if you can do it, it will be impressive

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I would definitely not say no to a plan like this. It'll be very interesting to watch this develop I bet. Really looking forward to it.

 

Tom N.

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Go For It! As I mentioned in my entry ('Viewpoint') Jack Nelson's work was an inspiration to me - although he chose the wrong company to model :) . I Look forward to seeing more!

 

Regs

 

Ian

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Thanks for the encouragement!:pleasantry:

 

The scenic part will be more or less to scale. I reckon of the L&NWR could squeeze all that into the space, then so can I :laugh:

 

More next week!

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I am still researching for the project. I found a great photo in an old copy of Model Railway Journal. I have one big query though. There appears to be a building in one corner of the site that I have no clear view of. You can just see part of it lurking behind the water column. I also include a map showing what I assume is the same building. If anyone has any idea what it looked like, I would very much like to know!

 

Otherwise, a scale plan definitely fits the 20" X 11" footprint allowed for the challenge. I blew up the OS map to 2mm scale and it just squeezes in. The longest loco is going to be about 50 ft long though, to scale. Still, I can run Farish Class 24s and Class 20s, so that's not a big problem. Not much chance of the L&NWR steam locos that should be on the diorama, I am afraid - it will take me long enough to build the diorama, never mind scratchbuilding 2mm scale steam locos!

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Interesting project. Don't forget that RMwebber Les Green is building Lime St in its entirety here: it even shows up at the bottom of this page as a "similar topic"! He or Mike Delamar may well be able to help with information.

 

Indeed, Mike pops up on this discussion of the subject where he links a picture of the turntable area in 1955 (link here), complete with prototype Deltic. I'd guess that many of the steam locos visiting Lime Street in that period are available rtr in N (Black 5, Jubilee, Scot, Britannia, 3F tank) or will be soon (Std 5 as seen in the photo), as of course is the Deltic, so a steam era model isn't out of the question. You could probably add 08 to share station pilot duties with the Jinties, EE Type 4 (though the Farish model is rather dated) and class 108 DMU which I believe went to Liverpool quite early.

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Simon thats the later larger turntable the other side of the station.

 

the one Weekday cross is planning went early on, cant think off hand the date but its not on John Holdens lime street layout at thats set around 1947.

 

the shed building survived as a boiler room I think but the turntable was covered over with a later building in front of it.

 

I think the building your wondering about is on Johns layout, just trying to see if I have a pic of it.

 

someone did build it in O gauge I think many years ago and wrote a book about it, but I cant think off hand, sure someone will know.

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Well here's the final plan for the scenic portion of Lime Street Loco! The 20" by 11" edge is indicated by the outside of the red rectangle. I put a Farish Class 24 on to give an idea of scale. The plan is actual scale, with no compromises. It would only be about 3ft by 6ft in O gauge!

 

The sector plate and hidden loco sidings will be hidden under the overbridge on the right hand side. The bridge girder over the tracks (St Vincent Street) will be put more or less at right angles to the baseboard edge, to allow sufficient room for the sector plate.

 

The edge of the station roof is the diagonal line in the bottom left hand corner. I will have to experiment a bit to see how to treat this best - I may put a view blocker in there to hide it altogether. I will also widen the platform at the bottom right so I don't have to model the tracks on the nearside platform face.

 

At the rear, there is just enough room to model the frontage of the long tobacco factory building, high up at the top of the cutting. The Gothic-looking building beyond, on St Vincent Street, will have to be painted onto the backscene.

 

I reckon I have enough information to make a reasonably accurate model now. The only real issues I can think of at the moment are as follows:

 

(1) Building to the left of the loco. From limited information, it looks like it had a flat roof and a large chimney. the map shops what look like urinals at the left hand end. Looking at maps, it possibly existed into the 1950s?

 

(2) Structure to the right of the loco, between the tracks - I guess it's a coaling stage? It is suggested as such in Jack Nelson's book.

 

If the worst comes to the worst and I can't find out what these were really like, I can always leave these off for the time being.

 

I will pay a visit to the area in the next couple of weeks or so to get a feel for the stonework and the rock cutting - they are probably a lot cleaner than in steam days though!

 

Replying to the last 2 entries...

 

Yes, the turntable is the old one at the north of the site, just outside the station roof. It had gone by the late 1920s, I guess.

 

I am modelling this in 2mm Finescale, not N gauge. The steam locos suggested would be difficult to convert in the time available, whereas with diesels, you more or less just swap the wheels. Anything bigger than a 4-4-0 or 0-6-0 would probably be too big for the turntable anyway.

 

Thanks for the help and encouragement, all the same!

 

Before I dive in to build the baseboard, I plan to experiment with several ways of representing the side of the cutting and the stonework. I will probably have a go at the turntable too. The depth of this - including the under-board bits will determine how deep the underlying baseboard will have to be. It is also the only moving item on the diorama (apart from the locos), so i need to be confident i can get it to work properly before doing much else.

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Hi

 

The picture below was for sale on ebay a while back as part of an album. The guy ended up breaking it up and selling page by page but wanted too much (in my opinion) for this particular shot.

 

HTH

 

Mike

 

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Thanks for sharing that, Mike. :D

 

I should obviously not be so confident about what I know, as that photo brings up a couple of new items I had not even considered - as well as a bit more of the elusive building near the start of the overall roof and tantalising part-view of the signal near the end of the platform.

 

It certainly shows more of the building in the background - it looks like the base of a water tower or something - except that there is no tank on top! I like the contraption on the platform too - some kind of luggage lift, I assume?

 

I guess the more the merrier, so if anyone else has unearthed photos of this corner of the station, please do let me know!

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I have played around with the above image in Photoshop - principally to darken down the brighter parts of the photo. This makes some of the detail stand out more. Others may find it useful. The turntable shows up better under the tender and the railings around the lift n the platform too.

 

Comparing the photo with a 1:500 OS map, the structure on the platform is definitely a lift.

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I have played around with the above image in Photoshop - principally to darken down the brighter parts of the photo. This makes some of the detail stand out more. Others may find it useful. The turntable shows up better under the tender and the railings around the lift n the platform too.

 

Comparing the photo with a 1:500 OS map, the structure on the platform is definitely a lift.

 

 

Hi

 

Yep definitely a lift. At this time there was a subway across the top end of the platforms for luggage/parcels. I believe it was abandoned when the station was remodelled in the 40's.

 

The line at the back of platform 1 leads to the fish dock and is not designated for passenger traffic. It would have to be platform 0 if it was!!!!

 

Regards

 

Mike

 

 

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The line at the back of platform 1 leads to the fish dock and is not designated for passenger traffic. It would have to be platform 0 if it was!!!!

 

Aha! so I need to model smells as well, then! :laugh:

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Turntable

 

Now for something technical!

 

I am now planning how to do the turntable. I have found a drawing of a Cowans Sheldon 50ft turntable in an old MRJ. With a few detail changes, that should give a reasonable representation of what I need, I hope. Alternatively, if anyone could pass on a source of a real LNWR turntable drawing, I would be grateful.

 

The electrics are likely to be a little complicated as 3 of the approach tracks to the turntable overlap. (see diagram). I propose to use DCC, which should be best for this situation.

 

One idea I had was to wire the tracks as shown in the diagram - red and black showing the polarities. Roads A and B line up so have to be the same. The turntable would have to be switchable, depending on which road it is aligned to. This idea has the advantage that all roads will have power on all the time - with the possible exception of the TT when it is not aligned to any roads at all.

 

Having all tracks live all the time means that DCC signals and power can be sent to any loco on any road all the time.

 

With DCC it doesn't matter in this case if alternate roads in the loco shed are of opposing polarities, as the decoder knows which direction is forwards on all locos.

 

If anyone has any better ideas, please let me know!

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Further to the above, I have now had the idea of a cam under the turntable with 2 SPDT microswitches, one for each rail. As the turntable revolves, the microswitches would switch the polarity of the power to each rail, depending on which track the turntable was aligned to. Not entirely sure it will work yet, but at least it's a start :rolleyes:

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I have played around with the above image in Photoshop - principally to darken down the brighter parts of the photo. This makes some of the detail stand out more. Others may find it useful. The turntable shows up better under the tender and the railings around the lift n the platform too.

 

Comparing the photo with a 1:500 OS map, the structure on the platform is definitely a lift.

 

Hi Weekday

 

One thing that isn't shown on the 1:500 OS map is any form of trapping. I have a later official plan after the 1940's resignalling which does show these coming from the former turntable road but would also expect them from the fish dock road. I will scan and post tomorrow hopefully.

 

Regarding images. I know the LNWR society published a view in their journal which showed a close up of a loco on the turntable but can't put my hand on it at present. I would be well worth contacting the LNWRS archivist and librarian who happens to be an expert on Lime Street. He will definately be able to help!! [email protected]

 

Regards

 

Mike

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Mike,

 

The trapping question was something that occurred to me too!

 

2 ground points are shown on the plan at the start of this topic and one shows on a photo, so the signal cabin must have controlled the junction between the fish dock and the loco shed, even before WW1. There had to be trap points somewhere.

 

I was only looking at the LNWR Society web site this afternoon and wondering what they might have to offer. I will email their archivist and see what he thinks. I would happily join if it gave access to lots of useful information. The only problem with all of this is balancing accuracy against the need to get the model completed in the next 5 or so months!

 

Were I being more pragmatic, I would probably say that the catch points would be hidden by the platform at the front of the diorama, so I wouldn't need to model them anyway :rolleyes:.

 

Many thanks again for your help and encouragement. I look forward with interest to the 1940s resignalling plan.

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DCC autoreverse module?

Or a combination of that with the equivalent of an insulfrog at the TT end?

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Many thanks for that suggestion. Dead frogs are best avoided if possible, I guess, in such a slow-speed environment.:rolleyes:

 

The use of a DCC autoreverser module sounds interesting. Unfortunately, I know little about them. I know they can be used on reverse loops, for example, but am not sure how they could be applied in my situation.

 

I had already decided to experiment with microswitces on the turntable. I have gone ahead and ordered some SPDT ones through Ebay. I will need at least one for the convergence of the two scenic tracks at the approach to the hidden sector plate anyway.

 

My idea is that the rail round the outside of the turntable pit supplies power to one rail of the turntable. The power for the other rail is supplied through the pivot. The microswitches act on cams attached to a rotating disc under the turntable. When the turntable rotates, the microswitches will be either in or out depending on which road the turntable is aligned to. The movement from in to out and vice versa reverses the current to the turntable. I still have to check if my logic is sound - my brain struggles a bit with things this complicated these days :unsure:

 

If that lot doesn't work then I may look into the idea of a DCC autoreverser module instead! - or maybe someone can come up with a stunningly simple solution?!?!?!

 

Third rail, stud contact, clockwork?????:laugh:

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Apologies for posting 3 times in one day - but a thought occurred to me over lunchtime-

 

I said way up near the beginning of this topic that the turntable would be the only moving thing on the diorama, other than the trains- but in reality, just how many things can I really get to move? The Challenge suggests we should incorporate visual impact and originality, so here goes with a few more ideas for starters....

 

The luggage lift rises and falls - a porter wheels a trolley onto and off the lift.

The signal arms should work on the signal at the end of the platform.

The ground signals should revolve (that one, at least, should be fairly easy)

 

That's a start, anyway

 

OK, I could have people moving their arms, but that would hardly be noticeable in 2mm scale. Road traffic on the overbridge is another possibility, but there is really nowhere practical for it to go, off scene.

 

The luggage lift one really intrigues me, especially as it is right in the foreground of the diorama.

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Mike,

 

The trapping question was something that occurred to me too!

 

2 ground points are shown on the plan at the start of this topic and one shows on a photo, so the signal cabin must have controlled the junction between the fish dock and the loco shed, even before WW1. There had to be trap points somewhere.

 

I was only looking at the LNWR Society web site this afternoon and wondering what they might have to offer. I will email their archivist and see what he thinks. I would happily join if it gave access to lots of useful information. The only problem with all of this is balancing accuracy against the need to get the model completed in the next 5 or so months!

 

Were I being more pragmatic, I would probably say that the catch points would be hidden by the platform at the front of the diorama, so I wouldn't need to model them anyway :rolleyes:.

 

Many thanks again for your help and encouragement. I look forward with interest to the 1940s resignalling plan.

 

Hi Weekday

 

OK here we go. First an extract of an official rating plan which is post the LMS resignalling and shows single bladed traps on both the pit road and back line combined in the back end of a point. An LNW/LMS favourite...

 

post-12179-0-81521400-1307388900_thumb.jpg

 

Next an extract of a photo of the signal box diagram for the same area again post resignalling.

 

post-12179-0-68814700-1307388958_thumb.jpg

 

Finally and really the bit you need for your period an extract from a sketch copy of a Board of Trade MT6 plan held at the Public Record Office Kew showing traps.

 

post-12179-0-72310300-1307389546_thumb.jpg

 

One thing that has been bugging me from your original post is the size of the turntable. I am sure that this was only 40ft which is why a 50ft one was also provided on the site of the present signal box. That too was replaced with a 60ft version in the 40's (I think) which survived to the 1980's.

 

Hope this all adds to your model.

 

HTH

 

Mike

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Mike,

 

Sincere thanks for all this information. It really does help a lot.

 

Your contact, suggested earlier, is also proving very helpful indeed - I hope to summarise his comments in due course, for everyone's benefit.

 

Regarding the turntable, it was originally 42 ft. It was replaced by a 50ft turntable in 1892, when the rock cutting was excavated behind the well to give more space.

 

One small query - do you have a more precise idea of what date the Board of Trade MT6 plan you sketched is, please? - (just to fend off the rivet counters, if necessary!) :laugh:

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