Building an N gauge coach kit

[Etched Pixels]

I think Alan was working on persuading Dapol to let him sell them separately - hopefully he'll succeed.

 

Actually persuading them wasn't terribly hard. I have Gresley bogies (with pickups), and the Collett ones are a question of timing - ie when Dapol are have production slots and the relevant tool running. I do have a rough timescale but as it might reveal some of Dapol's product schedules I don't really want to share that info without permission.

 

Alan

[DavidK71]

2012 already, which seems like time to review what's on the workbench. The answer, and I'm sure I'm not alone in this, is too many projects on the go at once ... Why is starting a new project always so tempting? 😍

 

One project that has progressed far enough to be interesting is an Ultima Hawksworth J18 sleeper, shown here with the roof and sides just tacked in place to check everything is okay:

 

This does provide a few challenges above and beyond the Hawksworths I've done before. The biggest source of complication is the massive six-wheel bogies this coach sits on. These are also from Ultima and are very nice: all the axlebox and spring detail is etched (rather than white metal) so can bear close inspection. They also run well, though they are a bit reluctant round very tight curves, unsurprisingly. With a six-wheel bogie the bogie pivot is directly over the middle axle, which makes life for this kit builder more difficult: I've had to discard the screws that are supplied as bogie mounts in favour of smaller M4 ones, which I had to heavily file down to get sufficient clearance for the axle.

 

I've also replaced the square LPG box on the underframe that comes with the kit with a gas cylinder, filed down to fit, which matches the photographs in Russell Appendix 2. The next challenge to deal with is the roof header tanks, one of which should be double sized. I have several ideas that involve having a go at etching, so the header tank may have to wait for that.

Edited September 5, 2022 by DavidK71

[PaulCheffus]

 

Speaking of which, as mentioned in the past, the next project is an Ultima kit of an LMS 50' full brake. This is now mostly assembled, though the roof and sides are just tacked in place at the moment for the photograph:

 

 

 

Hi

 

How do you finally fix the sides?

 

Cheers

 

Paul

[DavidK71]

How do you finally fix the sides?

 

I glue thin slivers of plasticard to the folded up sides of the floor until the sides touch the plasticard as well as the edges of the ends, then glue the sides to the ends and the plasticard, with a tiny amount of glue to hold it to the roof, too. If the sides don't have a door right at the end (i.e. a brake end) I'll also glue a 1mm square piece of plasticard rod to the ends to provide a larger surface to attach to, as well. The glue for this is Evostick Impact - it's strong and quite viscous, so doesn't end up were it shouldn't.

[PaulCheffus]

I glue thin slivers of plasticard to the folded up sides of the floor until the sides touch the plasticard as well as the edges of the ends, then glue the sides to the ends and the plasticard, with a tiny amount of glue to hold it to the roof, too. If the sides don't have a door right at the end (i.e. a brake end) I'll also glue a 1mm square piece of plasticard rod to the ends to provide a larger surface to attach to, as well. The glue for this is Evostick Impact - it's strong and quite viscous, so doesn't end up were it shouldn't.

 

Hi

 

Thanks. I have a couple of these kits to make so this thread and your help above willl come in very handy.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

[DavidK71]

Thanks. I have a couple of these kits to make so this thread and your help above willl come in very handy.

 

They're nice kits - hope you enjoy building them and post about it on RMWeb! D869's blog at http://www.rmweb.co....draulic-heaven/ is also well worth reading for details of how he built a very nice Hawksworth full brake.

[DavidK71]

Work has been progressing slowly on the Hawksworth J18 sleeper, and in the meantime a few other projects have managed to bypass it on the production line. First to completion is an Ultima LMS 42' CCT (or GUV), which coincidentally Coachman is doing a rather nice version of in 4mm in a nearby thread ... Pictures of the finished result, in British Rail carmine:

 

Bogies are LMS 9' from the 2mm Association, with N-gauge profile wheels, and very nice they are too. The Ultima kit itself is straightforward to put together and produces a very pleasing result: these short bogie coaches are, I think, very attractive. If anyone wants a simple coach project to get started on, I would recommend this one.

 

The only addition beyond what comes in the kit is the wire handrails and door handles, which are just made from 0.3mm nickel silver wire from Eileen's Emporium, bent to the appropriate shape and inserted into holes in the sides that had been drilled out with a jeweller's drill. One valuable lesson learned from doing this is that you have to take account of whether the lower holes in the sides will sit over the folded up edge of the coach floor - I ended up having to drill holes in the folded up edges to let the wire through in order to get the sides to attach correctly. This would have been easier to do if I had worked this out before completely assembling the shell.

 

Painting is much as for the previous LMS full brake: the sides and underframe are Halfords satin black, the sides Halfords red primer then AR530 cellulose car paint sprayed over the top. This is then covered with a spray of Halfords clear lacquer to give the transfers a smooth surface to adhere too, followed by another coat of lacquer to protect the transfers, and finally a very light spray with Humbrol matt varnish to achieve the desired finish. Transfers are from ModelMaster for the number, and Fox for the grey chalkboard panels.

 

One thing that does detract a touch from the appearance relative to the prototype is the lack of the horizontal beading stripes on the sides. I did experiment with the same 0.5mm lining tape as has been used for the roof ribbing, but it was just far too thick. (It's a little too thick for the roof, too, to be honest, but it doesn't seem quite so obvious there.) The search for some thinner lining tape continues ...

Edited October 15, 2023 by DavidK71
Replace lost photograph

[Revolution Ben]

Hello David,

 

That 42' brake is lovely. Very nice work indeed! Does anyone know, in later years did those short brakes last as long as the 50' ones?

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

[D869]

Nice work again David. Glad to see that you were successful with the 2mm Association bogies.

 

I'm just finishing off a Thompson BG so will post some words and pictures about that soon.

 

Regards, Andy

[DavidK71]

On 10/05/2012 at 18:31, Ben A said:

Does anyone know, in later years did those short brakes last as long as the 50' ones?

My copy of "LMS Coaches" states that withdrawals started in '64, and many were still around in '69, so they must have lasted well into the 1970s, at least. Paul Bartlett's site has a photograph of one in BR blue, albeit very faded and battered, taken in '85, though it looks like it has spent a while sat on a scrap line.

 

There was also a thread about this a while back (http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/27920-ex-lms-42-guv-when-were-they-withdrawn/) which quotes the 1978 RCTS stock book as having two left in service, so it looks like they lingered on until about the same time as the 50' brakes.

 

On 10/05/2012 at 20:40, D869 said:

I'm just finishing off a Thompson BG so will post some words and pictures about that soon.

I'm looking forward to that!

Edited September 5, 2022 by DavidK71

[DavidK71]

Another one done, this time a Hawksworth full first to diagram A.23, again from Ultima:

 

Bogies are GWR Pressed Steel, from the 2mm Association, on N gauge axles. Transfers are from ModelMaster (for the lining, '1's and the running numbers) and from Fox (for the first class 'sausages' in the windows). The sausages have just been applied directly to the glazing so I have a certain amount of fear that they'll eventually fall off, but that hasn't happened so far.

 

One slight cheat I have tried is with the filler pipes. Rather than try to bend two pieces of wire into the correct shapes, as I attempted with the original brake third, I instead have one curved piece which forms a near semi-circle, attached to the coach side, and two straight pieces, attached to the roof. This was much easier to form and avoids problems with having to get the roof in place before adding the pipes, but does mean close examination shows that the pipes aren't perhaps as prototypical as they could be. From any sort of reasonable viewing distance, though, the effect convinces me.

 

Finally, a shot of the three completed Hawksworths to date, all now running on 2mm Association GWR Pressed Steel bogies:

Edited September 5, 2022 by DavidK71

[D869]

Liking the new coach and the train David although I think your customer base must be quite well-to-do. You have a lot of first class accommodation and luggage space and not much space in cattle class. Nothing that another coach or two won't fix though . Having the brake ends facing outwards is usually more typical too.

 

Any idea what sort of train service (and therefore formation) you are aiming for?

[DavidK71]

Any idea what sort of train service (and therefore formation) you are aiming for?

 

An excellent question! The original impetus behind the coach building experiments is that while I have long term plans for the space for a layout, they're likely to be a few years off, and until then I wanted something to occupy me. The first plan (which is stating it too grandly: the first vague idea might be better) was for a model of a section of Great Western main line. The Hawksworth full brake and sleeper are intended to be part of an overnight train, and the brake third and first part of a daytime express.

 

However, inspired by a photograph of Old Oak Common in (I think) Harris, I have considered instead a layout of coach sidings. This would allow a more arbitrary selection of interesting coaching stock of various ages, perhaps with a shunter loco or two pottering about. Still, I fully expect several more changes of plan before there's any danger of actually making a layout.

 

There's also the great N gauge vs. 2mm finescale question to decide. I have at least tried to sit on the fence by using 2mm Association bogies: it would not be hard to remove the N gauge couplers and put in 2mm wheelsets. So many choices to make ...

[D869]

That sounds like a good idea, as does (I think) 'Western Road's idea of using carriage sidings as a backdrop to an MPD layout.

 

It would still be a good idea to think about formations when planning your shopping list - in the steam era there was a lot of remarshalling and coaches worked complex diagrams but it was far from random - usually trains were made up of multiple sets of coaches (e.g. BTK+CK+TK+BTK with the van sections pointing outwards). The trains might be split en route or on reaching their destination but the sets would stay together unless there was a need to take a vehicle out for repairs or similar.

 

I have a couple of PDFs with late 50s WR carriage workings. They were scanned by Robert Carroll and I'm pretty sure I got them from the BRCS Yahoo group. Well worth joining if you aren't already on there.

[DavidK71]

On 17/05/2012 at 14:17, D869 said:

It would still be a good idea to think about formations when planning your shopping list.

 

You are right, my current stash of kits does show a certain randomness in its selection. But that's usually how I do most things in life 🙂 As you say, more kits will sort that out ... Thanks for the tip about the BRCS group.

Edited September 7, 2022 by DavidK71

[DavidK71]

Next up on the workbench is a Great Western K.22 full brake:

 

 

D869 remarked in a recent blog post that he was posting about a kit you can't build, and this is rather similar: I bought this on a whim as just an etched sheet from an eBay auction. From the instructions on what is on the etch this was made by "5522 Models" and looks to have been shot down from 4mm in the 1980s or early 1990s.

 

This has proved to be more of a challenge than the previous kits I've done. The floor and sides are all one piece, which made creating the tumblehome an exciting challenge. The sides were then folded up and the ends attached. I have to say that I prefer separate sides, in the style of Ultima and Masterclass kits, especially as painting will have to be a "get it right first time" project. In the past I've occasionally been unhappy with what I've managed on sides, so I've stripped them and tried again, but that won't work here, at least not without stripping the whole thing.

 

Bogies are 9' American from the 2mm Association on N gauge wheels. Truss rods, underframe details and coach ends are from Ultima. Buffers are from NBrass, as these seemed to be the closest to accurate, but they're not really correct: the buffers should have square shanks. I've never seen square shank buffers for sale in 2mm, and an attempt to file a round shank square didn't end well.

 

One disaster during construction was the solebars. The original etched part is supposed to be folded along its long axis to produce the solebar, but that went completely wrong - I suspect it would have been easier in the original 4mm! I got round this by buying a suitable coach floor from Ultima and taking the solebars from that.

 

One essential item that the observant will notice is missing from the photograph is a roof. The kit comes with an etched roof, which I have not yet had the courage to tackle. Rolling a three-arc roof profile from thin brass sheet looks to be hard ... does anyone have any advice? A 57' toplight resin roof from a Masterclass kit fits perfectly, but I want to build the Masterclass kit too ... does anyone have a Masterclass 57' resin roof they don't want? No, I didn't think so ... 😪 My plan is to give the roof a try and if that doesn't work, experiment with 3D printing of roofs - this is something I want to try anyway, as if I can figure out a way to make roofs then there are lots of Worsley Works and Bill Bedford etches that I could use.

 

Overall, building this has been interesting and fun, but I couldn't actually recommend it as an approach to anyone wanting a 2mm / N K.22. After buying the etch I noticed that Worsley Works do a K.22 (or at least the sides and floor): a much easier approach would be to get hold of a Masterclass 57' toplight and replace the sides with the Worsley etch.

Edited September 5, 2022 by DavidK71

[D869]

D869 remarked in a recent blog post that he was posting about a kit you can't build

That could mean two things. On the one hand there are kits that are no longer available... on the other, there are some that are just, well... not very good.

 

Rolling a three-arc roof profile from thin brass sheet looks to be hard ... does anyone have any advice?

By coincidence I emailed Mr Allen Worsley Works about suitable pre-formed roofs a couple of weeks back. Unfortunately he wasn't able to suggest many options.

 

The things that I know of are...

- MTK/Fleetline/BH Enterprises roof mouldings. Not sure on the quality of these. Certainly their recent floor and side mouldings are not as good as the old MTK/Fleetline ones.

- Ultima list a 3D printed plastic 'SECR' roof moulding. Never seen one.

- The 2mm Association Shop 3 lists two plastic roof sections - LMS and Mark 1 but the latter is out of stock. Again, I don't know anything more about them.

- Ultima list a roof for the Siphon. Assuming it's the same as shipped in their Siphon kit then I think it's extruded metal.

 

Regards, Andy

[DavidK71]

On 02/07/2012 at 19:06, D869 said:

That could mean two things. On the one hand there are kits that are no longer available... on the other, there are some that are just, well... not very good.

Ooops, that was not intentional! I did not want to suggest that Mr. Wright's etches were anything other than very nice 🙂

 

On 02/07/2012 at 19:06, D869 said:

By coincidence I emailed Mr Allen Worsley Works about suitable pre-formed roofs a couple of weeks back. Unfortunately he wasn't able to suggest many options.

My understanding is that the Ultima roof is extruded aluminium, to the same profile as the Ultima LMS kits. For both this roof profile and the 2mm LMS one the main difficulty I can see will be the lack of roof rain-strips. Looking around rmweb I can see that some people have used lining tape successfully for this in 4mm, but I haven't managed to track down thin enough lining tape, and also I suspect that any folds or creases in the tape will be more noticeable in 2mm.

 

I think 3D printing will be the way to go. Alan Cox's posts have introduced me to OpenSCAD, which looks very interesting, so at some point I definitelty want to try this. Having said that, experimenting yesterday with rolling the K22 roof was surprisingly okay: the shape is not completely there yet, but the roof at least looks evenly curved.

Edited September 5, 2022 by DavidK71

[D869]

My understanding is that the Ultima roof is extruded aluminium, to the same profile as the Ultima LMS kits.

I suspected that some of the Ultima LMS kits had an extruded roof but I could not find this in Alan's catalog as a separately available item. Maybe I missed it or maybe he is conserving his stocks to sell with complete kits.

 

For both this roof profile and the 2mm LMS one the main difficulty I can see will be the lack of roof rain-strips. Looking around rmweb I can see that some people have used lining tape successfully for this in 4mm, but I haven't managed to track down thin enough lining tape, and also I suspect that any folds or creases in the tape will be more noticeable in 2mm.

I agree that attaching things to Aluminium is going to be tricky. The plastic ones should present fewer issues in this area if they will take solvents.

 

Good luck with the 3D printing.

[queensquare]

There's also the great N gauge vs. 2mm finescale question to decide. I have at least tried to sit on the fence by using 2mm Association bogies: it would not be hard to remove the N gauge couplers and put in 2mm wheelsets. So many choices to make ...

 

Some superb coaches, the finish is particularly impressive - fancy painting and lining my eight coach MR clearstory Manchester Diner rake!!. Whether you stick with N or go 2FS is up to you although I'm sure you can guess what I would suggest!! Either way I would certainly dump those Rapido couplings, they do nothing for your beautiful modelling.

 

Jerry

[D869]

Either way I would certainly dump those Rapido couplings, they do nothing for your beautiful modelling.

 

... which opens up the question of what to use instead. I don't think that the answer is easy for corridor coaches. It depends what you want to do with them.

 

If you want to uncouple them a lot then you need an auto coupler but the DG is less than ideal because parts of it want to lift into the space occupied by the gangway. I have still used DGs on rake ends and full brakes but the gap between adjacent vehicles is too big (probably worse than with Rapidos). Other auto couplers are available.

 

Within fixed rakes you have lots more options but if you want to propel rakes through crossovers then you need to take a bit more care regarding buffer locking, lateral friction between the gangways and coupling forces trying to 'steer' the bogies in undesirable ways. I am currently using couplings mounted to the bogie pivots with rare earth magnets to attach one coach to the next. These allow the bogies to 'steer' freely, give close coupling and easy setup and break down at shows but they are probably only marginally less obtrusive than Rapidos.

 

Regards, Andy

[DavidK71]

On 03/07/2012 at 23:00, queensquare said:

Some superb coaches, the finish is particularly impressive - fancy painting and lining my eight coach MR clearstory Manchester Diner rake!!. Whether you stick with N or go 2FS is up to you although I'm sure you can guess what I would suggest!! Either way I would certainly dump those Rapido couplings, they do nothing for your beautiful modelling.

 

Thank you, you're very kind! Lining clerestories in 2mm sounds like an "interesting" challenge, I'll be interested to see how you get on with that.

 

You are correct that the couplers are not ideal. They are only attached to the bogies so that they can be removed fairly easily (or the whole bogie replaced, if need be). So many choices and decisions to make ... 😃

Edited September 5, 2022 by DavidK71

[DavidK71]

Well, rolling the roof did not turn out to be as bad as I had feared it would be. A trip to the local DIY store provided lengths of 5mm, 10mm and 30mm diameter pipe, and using them to roll the etched brass gives this as the result, after about two hours of very slow work:

 

 

The roof is just resting in place, and is not quite finished: I intend to get the main shell painted and glazed before final adjustments are made to get the roof perfectly shaped. Overall, I'm very pleased - it seems that etched brass is a viable method of making roofs, if not exactly quick. This means that the planned experiments with 3D roofs will have to wait a bit.

[queensquare]

You have made a cracking job of that. I find rolling roofs an absolute pig and not at all easy.

 

Jerry

[D869]

That's looking good David.