the penguin of doom Posted January 8, 2010 Share Posted January 8, 2010 And me too. I've still got to do the experiments with this stuff to make the motors, though much of this has already been done by my old mate Mick Nich who it was who first brought this stuff to my attention. Cheers Mike He's got alot to answer for that Mick Nich....... He sent me some information on my old box, Quay Crossing up at Brid and I spent the new year counting bricks on three local boxes to firm up some measurements, (Quay looks suprisingly similar to Hessle Haven BTW). What would we do without him though? Cheers. Sean. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikemeg Posted January 8, 2010 Author Share Posted January 8, 2010 Sean, I guess, in Mick's defence, he did make all of this Hessle Haven model possible by his extensive archive of photographs and detailed plans. Anyway another photo just to check the last of the three dolls and especially that the arms rest horizontal. I do a great deal of this kind of checking while building a model but it is much easier while these assemblies are free standing than when they are finally assembled. So this final doll looks ok and can be fixed into the lattice girder. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
the penguin of doom Posted January 9, 2010 Share Posted January 9, 2010 Sean, I guess, in Mick's defence, he did make all of this Hessle Haven model possible by his extensive archive of photographs and detailed plans. Anyway another photo just to check the last of the three dolls and especially that the arms rest horizontal. I do a great deal of this kind of checking while building a model but it is much easier while these assemblies are free standing than when they are finally assembled. So this final doll looks ok and can be fixed into the lattice girder. Indeed. Without folk like Mick and the other folk out there keeping records of our fast disappearing railway heritage, where would we be. There'd crtainly be little chance of making such models as your, which, is looking fantastic. Cheers. Sean. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikemeg Posted January 9, 2010 Author Share Posted January 9, 2010 Sean, Amen to that. I've said many times but it's worth re-iterating that without Mick's incredible archives of photos and plans none of this could have been done. We can no longer just go and measure, we can merely hope someone, somewhere has found and kept photos of this environment now long gone. In the relatively short time that I have been building models, at least this time around, one thing I have learned is that on any model there is/are those details which contribute to the overall look and feel of the model in a way quite disproportionate to the size of that detail. On this model one such detail is the battery boxes fitted to the two dolls carrying distant signals. So I have attempted to model these small and seemingly inconsequential items as well as I can. Just boxes of .020" plasticard, scribed for the individual planks and then with the hinges cut and fitted. See what you think as to how much this tiny detail adds to the model? Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
the penguin of doom Posted January 10, 2010 Share Posted January 10, 2010 Sean, Amen to that. I've said many times but it's worth re-iterating that without Mick's incredible archives of photos and plans none of this could have been done. We can no longer just go and measure, we can merely hope someone, somewhere has found and kept photos of this environment now long gone. In the relatively short time that I have been building models, at least this time around, one thing I have learned is that on any model there is/are those details which contribute to the overall look and feel of the model in a way quite disproportionate to the size of that detail. On this model one such detail is the battery boxes fitted to the two dolls carrying distant signals. So I have attempted to model these small and seemingly inconsequential items as well as I can. Just boxes of .020" plasticard, scribed for the individual planks and then with the hinges cut and fitted. See what you think as to how much this tiny detail adds to the model? Mike You're quite right Mike. I don't think its because you pointed it out, but these parts are quite prominent and therefore essential. I could argue, (not having seen the actual signals you are modelling) that I would not know the difference, but as we all know, there is always someone out there who will know the location, locomotive or item of stock being modelled and will relish in pointing out the missing part! It can be very frustrating, but in most cases, they are (I think), correct to point it out. Anywho, regards your battery boxes, they seem to be an accurate representation of the real thing - and I'm basing my comments on the lineside stuff I HAVE seen - and they seem to look to be right in place on the model. As regards your comments about infrastructure being long gone, just an immature argument here, but I am in the near future going to measure up Kiplingcoates signal box , "Just because its there". Just kidding, your comments above are most valid. Keep up the good work. Sean. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikemeg Posted January 11, 2010 Author Share Posted January 11, 2010 You're quite right Mike. As regards your comments about infrastructure being long gone, just an immature argument here, but I am in the near future going to measure up Kiplingcoates signal box , "Just because its there". Just kidding, your comments above are most valid. Keep up the good work. Sean. Sean, On this same immature theme, while you're in Kiplingcoates you might also have time to measure up and photograph the cake factory; that will be an exceedingly good thing to do. Cheers Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
the penguin of doom Posted January 11, 2010 Share Posted January 11, 2010 Sean, On this same immature theme, while you're in Kiplingcoates you might also have time to measure up and photograph the cake factory; that will be an exceedingly good thing to do. Cheers Mike In this weather though, I'd need a couple of warm jackets. Geddit? Kipling coats? Wah Wah Waaaaahhhh. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikemeg Posted January 11, 2010 Author Share Posted January 11, 2010 In this weather though, I'd need a couple of warm jackets. Geddit? Kipling coats? Wah Wah Waaaaahhhh. This could get very silly (aren't Kipling coats things for keeping cakes warm?) so here's a post about making this model. This prototype had a secondary landing spanning all three dolls and situated about six feet above the decking on the bridge. The planking on this landing was much finer than that on the decking - around 3" to 4" wide treads. Model Signal Engineering do provide an etch for this landing but this is not currently available, so I decided to scratch build this landing. Step 1 was to cut two lengths of 0.8 mm 'L' angle and line one edge of each piece with .030" x .010" microstrip. Needless to say this has to be done very carefully. The microstrip is superglued to the brass angle which will now allow me to use plasticard for the landing treads and to stick them to the 'L' angle with liquid poly. A further complication for this landing is that the operating wires on the two dolls with distants fitted, actually passed through this landing, so :- Step 2 one of the 'L' angle supports for the landing must be fixed to the three dolls, inside two sets of the operating wires, and outside the other (the solitary stop signal) - see photo - which therefore means that the landing itself will be built on only one 'L' angle support and then glued to the second one in its finished state. Step 3 the landing itself is produced by cutting strips of .015" plasticard 1.25mm wide and then chopping this up into 9mm (2' 3") strips for the individual treads. Each fifth tread carries one of the 1/32" brass tube stanchion castings which is superglued into the tread. Yes I know this is a tortuous process but it's doing stuff like this which gives me the real satisfaction in building models. Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikemeg Posted January 15, 2010 Author Share Posted January 15, 2010 He's got alot to answer for that Mick Nich....... He sent me some information on my old box, Quay Crossing up at Brid and I spent the new year counting bricks on three local boxes to firm up some measurements, (Quay looks suprisingly similar to Hessle Haven BTW). What would we do without him though? Cheers. Sean. Back on the third page of postings on this thread, I posted a drawing and photo of the third of these signalling installations to be built. Both the drawing and the photo show the thing as it was in the early sixties and there was no evidence as to when this thing was converted from lower to upper quadrants, the thought being that this was done pre war. One of Mick Nich's archives is the weekly notices of signalling work to be done covering this area, which were produced throughout the time of the LNER and much of BR. On one such notice, dated 1951, Mick has found the details of the refitting of this gantry from lower quadrant to upper quadrant (done in June 1951). So as the railway is set in mid-1950, the model of this will be largely as it must have appeared in its NER days. I would like to build at least one large ex-NER signal installation in its original condition and now can legitimately put it on Hessle Haven. So it really is 'back to the drawing board' on this one. Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikemeg Posted January 15, 2010 Author Share Posted January 15, 2010 The second landing is now built and painted. The unevennesss of the ends of the treads, evident on the photograph, should be sorted out when these are all glued to the support fixed to the three dolls, which is level. Effectively, this landing has had to be built around the operating wires in order that these wires can pass through the landing. The alternative - building and fixing the second landing and then adding the operating wires through it - was simply beyond my capabilities. Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikemeg Posted January 20, 2010 Author Share Posted January 20, 2010 Well after the comparatively 'macro' stuff of building the structure, now comes the 'micro' stuff of linking up the arms with the operating wires. The model has been made so that the arms and the balance levers are as free as possible so that the arms will return to danger under their own weight. But the wire runs on the two tallest dolls were brought up from the right hand side of the bridge, via angle cranks, and so require wire runs of approx. 6" and 5". More than enough length for the wire to buckle when the arm is returned to danger. I did experiment with using the .2mm wire for these runs but there is very little rigidity in this wire - there isn't much in .3mm wire - so I opted for the .3mm wire for these runs. The longest of the wire runs; the one to the single stop arm controlling the fast line to slow line movement' has been wired up and its pulley fitted. To my considerable surprise the arm works well and will return to danger without the operating wire flexing from straight. Just the two dolls with the distants on, now left to do. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovenor Posted January 24, 2010 Share Posted January 24, 2010 Mike, Could you explain how you, a) Manage to cut and bend the wire to just the right length? B) Bend the ends so you can get them in the cranks but they don't fall out? I'm currently having quite a fight with this and any help would be welcome. Regards Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
micknich2003 Posted January 24, 2010 Share Posted January 24, 2010 Mike, Could you explain how you, a) Manage to cut and bend the wire to just the right length? B) Bend the ends so you can get them in the cranks but they don't fall out? I'm currently having quite a fight with this and any help would be welcome. Regards Keith Mike is away at the moment, below is how we both make cross and down wires etc. The various wire lengths equal the distance between crank centres and are easily measured. Next take a suitable length of wire and using a match or cig lighter anneal it at both ends, bend about 10mm at one end through 90o. Next lay the wire on your rule with the bent end coinciding with the finished wire length, then bend "Free End" through 90o. Place in crank hole and bend to secure and trim off. Mick Nicholson. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikemeg Posted January 25, 2010 Author Share Posted January 25, 2010 Mike, Could you explain how you, a) Manage to cut and bend the wire to just the right length? B) Bend the ends so you can get them in the cranks but they don't fall out? I'm currently having quite a fight with this and any help would be welcome. Regards Keith Keith, Thanks to Mick Nich for outlining the method for establishing the lengths of the operating wires and for 'annealing' the ends. This annealing process effectively softens the wire and allows much tighter bends to be achieved and with much less pressure, so reducing the tendency to damage cranks, pulleys, etc. as these bends are formed, in place. One other 'trick' to establish the wire length is to use a piece of microstrip - .020" or .030" and cut it to the approximate length of the wire but oversize. By laying this piece between the points to be used as fulcrums in the wire run and then reducing its length until it is exactly correct, you then have a marker for the distance between the bends. I've resorted to this a few times where I haven't completely trusted my measurements. On relatively short wire runs one also needs to remember Pythagoras i.e. how to calculate the length of the hypotenuse of a right angled triangle; on longer wire runs then this length tends towards the length of the longest side and certainly on these wire runs (> 11 cm) then I didn't need to take account of Pythagoras. Cheers Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikemeg Posted January 26, 2010 Author Share Posted January 26, 2010 Mike, Could you explain how you, a) Manage to cut and bend the wire to just the right length? B) Bend the ends so you can get them in the cranks but they don't fall out? I'm currently having quite a fight with this and any help would be welcome. Regards Keith I think I did show this process on a thread on the old site but, at the risk of repetition, here are a few photos which should, hopefully, explain how these wires are formed and how they are fitted. The photos below show a two wheeled pulley to which two operating wires must be fitted. This is a very small assembly - the wheels are around 3.5 mm diameter and the shorter of the two wire lugs soldered into each wheel are drilled .35 mm. The separation between the lugs on those two wheels, visible on the second of the photos, is around 1.0 mm. So, the wire loops on these wires do have to be very tight indeed. The third photo shows one of the operating wires (.3 mm brass wire) which has had the ends bent through 90 degrees and both bends gently 'annealed'. This annealing process is very much trial and error - just heat the wire until it glows red and then remove the heat. Dwell too long and the piece will melt or at best deform. So one bend is threaded through the hole in the lug and then, using only a pair of fine tweezers, is gently closed as tight as possible. A final 'pinch' with a pair of long nosed pliers and the loop is tight and will not fall off. I normally fit these very small components by eye but against a white background; in this instance I used an A2 sheet of white card as the background. The final photo shows the wires fitted with the loops pinched up tight so that they will pass each other within the housing of the pulley wheels. This looks more difficult than it is, though it does require a steady hand and a large measure of patience and, perhaps, a little practice. Cheers Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikemeg Posted January 26, 2010 Author Share Posted January 26, 2010 Just to complete this discourse on linking the wires, a few more photographs :- The wires from the two wheel pulley are then threaded into the nearest two of the angle cranks and then each loop is carefully closed. Care must be taken not to nip these loops too tight and lock them around the end of the crank; the loop must move freely within the crank to allow the change of angle as the crank revolves. The other end of the arrangement with the two wheel pulley fixed to the decking and then the very short down wires (fuse wire) from the balance levers to the pulleys are threaded onto the ends of the extended lugs in the pulley wheels and the loops in these closed. These close up photos do the workmanship no favours but these are extremely small and very fine sections - anybody think of a better excuse then answers on a postcard! Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikemeg Posted January 26, 2010 Author Share Posted January 26, 2010 So hopefully for Keith and for anyone else who wonders how these things are linked up, then these last few posts and photos will help to explain the process. Much of this is explained in Mick Nicholson's book on building 4 mm signals; I've had to modify the process, but only slightly, to cater for these pulley wheels. So the final test of this lot is :- Will each arm move independently of the rest and will each arm return to danger without the operating wires buckling? On this arrangement, the arms do move independently of each other i.e. no single mechanism fouls any of the others at the angle crank or pulley and each arm will return to danger with a minimum of pushing force. So, there is no need to add any constraints along the wire run and I can now do the other end. Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
the penguin of doom Posted January 27, 2010 Share Posted January 27, 2010 Talking of the other end Mike and with the above in mind, how do you work the signals? I'm guessing there's a fully interlocked lever frame somewhere on the side lines? Looking good BTW, very intricate work, but very well put together. Cheers, Sean. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovenor Posted January 28, 2010 Share Posted January 28, 2010 Thanks Mick and Mike, I must have missed the bit about annealing when reading the book and it hadn't ocurred to me, must give that a try. Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikemeg Posted January 29, 2010 Author Share Posted January 29, 2010 Progress has been a little slow since Christmas - other things to do, but we now have everything linked up and working. I did use the .2mm wire for the very short wire runs on the arms nearset the camera and it seems to work fine. The decking has all been painted (a mixture of natural wood and stone) and then weathered with a very dilute wash of weathered black. All but seven of the handrail stanchions are on and fixed (forty four so far) so once these remaining seven are fitted, then the handrails can be done. This handrail is well over twenty inches (50 cm) in total length so will have to be done in sections and either spliced or joined using very small sections of 1/32" tube turned down to around .4 - .5 mm. Then it's just the ladders and landings and then this one is about there. I have spent a little time trying to find out what colour the lattice work would have been painted in 1950. Concensus seems to be that they were painted white though with the intervention of the war, then it is probably unlikely that they would have been repainted by 1950. So a very weathered white is what the lattice work will be. Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikemeg Posted February 2, 2010 Author Share Posted February 2, 2010 Having done all of the linkages and with all arms working, it's now time to finish the remaining activities :- The handrail around the main decking. Fixing the second landing to the support on the dolls, trapping the operating wires on the two dolls with distant arms. It would have been very easy to 'gum up' these wires when fitting the second landing and to prevent the balance levers on the far doll from travelling by fouling the rungs on the ladder. Fortunately, all of these traps were avoided! The lampmans landings and ladders. The main handrail is being fabricated in three sections, because of its length, and will be joined with tiny pieces of tube (2mm long) turned down to around .45 mm. At last, this is beginning to look like that signal bridge which stood by Hessle Haven all those years ago. Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikemeg Posted February 10, 2010 Author Share Posted February 10, 2010 So now time to 'sweep up' all of the bits and pieces jobs to finish the model - the various tie rods between the dolls, support brackets, lampmans landings and the last of the ladders. The landing on the far doll being located in front of the doll must again be built around the operating wire which will pass through this landing. The two landings on the doll nearest the camera are located behind the doll and so can be built complete and then attached to the doll. So hopefully by the end of today, everything will be on this model and it will be ready for its final painting and weathering. Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
iak Posted February 10, 2010 Share Posted February 10, 2010 Top stuff again mon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikemeg Posted February 12, 2010 Author Share Posted February 12, 2010 The last landing - that for the distant on the tallest of the dolls is just drying and can then be fixed, along with its ladder and the ladder up to the decking. Then the whole of the lattice superstructure will be primed and painted. The model, along with the gantry, will be finished in that weather worn and rather neglected state of 1950 when the railways were still trying to make up for the privations of the war years. Each of the ladders has been reinforced down each side, on the stile, with a piece of .3 mm wire soldered to the stile. This really does keep the ladders straight and greatly adds to the 3-d effect of what is a very fine but rather 2-d etch. So we'll just about get to one hundred posts on this thread with a couple more photos of the finished model. Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 Bloody brilliant. Give that man a round of applause Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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