Jump to content
 

Any Question Answered


Pixie
 Share

Recommended Posts

Does anyone have any tips for cutting down the motor shafts on the Association can motors? 

 

I've dug out the chassis I'd built for an old Farish Jinty, and despite having previously mangled it when trying to make some tweaks, now have it running nicely. However as I used a UJ to mount the motor to be "removable", it sits quite a way back. The motor shaft on the other end pokes a long way back, and basically fills what seems like it would otherwise be the best space for a decoder / stay alive components.

 

I'm a bit cautious about taking a cutting disc to the shaft - I guess I have to take into account both forces on the bearings when cutting, and stray metal bits potentially getting into it?

 

J

Link to post
Share on other sites

On 18/09/2020 at 11:55, Lacathedrale said:

I tried both file-bend-file and bend-file-file and found the former easier when using the filing jigs. For file-bend-file, I found that to bend the filed face back parallel with the rail was made easier by using a bright metal plate, with the corner acting as a fulcrum and the vee held with a fingernail.

 

Here's my first 1:10 with a fully supported vee tip, I'm quite happy!

 

W9ozObm.png

 

 

As a small addendum - I spent some time yesterday trying to get this to a repeatable state, and found that sometimes the bend back to parallel would result in the filed face ending up concave, since the thinner tip would bend more than the thicker base of the vee. After review, I found that the 'bend' portion of this process is described in the middle of the TRACK book and suggests using pliers to tweak the filed face back parallel. This worked for me as long as I gripped the rail at the very end of the filed face and tweaked it.

 

This resulted in two more fully supported vees that I'm more or less satisfied with. The bottom-most vee was my first (pictured above) and shows the slight concavity mentioned and will be desoldered and scrabbed, the upper two were done by tweaking with pliers:

 

e5285Cq.png

 

 

A couple of supplementary questions, since I'm at exactly this point (ha, pun) of continuing on now:

 

1) The common crossing assembly jigs are highly vaunted in TRACK but I found it quite hard to ensure that what I was using to tie the vee and wing rails together was situated either between timbers or ontop of them, depending on whether I'm using chaired track or not. Is there a simple way to do this? It feels like there's something obvious that I'm missing!

 

and 2) - this formation was originally laid purely as an experiment before starting over 'on the layout' - but it has been brought to my attention this could well be a waste of PCB as well as time if the work is good enough. Does anyone have any insight on where best to truncate the formation as pictured so it can be lifted and shifted onto the layout if it cuts the mustard?

 

gcERo9N.png

 

My gut feeling is to lay the vee and stock rails fairly 3-4 sleepers beyond the common crossing, staggered so that each timber has at least a couple of soldered connections, i.e. something like this:

 

MW0AGDV.png

 

I'm fairly certain rail joints for the vee and stock rails should be staggered for strength and alignment purposes, but not sure if they should be one side or another of the check rails, (i.e. top left corner), etc.

 

 

 

 

Cheers!

Edited by Lacathedrale
  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, justin1985 said:

Does anyone have any tips for cutting down the motor shafts on the Association can motors? 

I've cut the shafts on all the motors I've used, though none were the ones to which you refer, without any problems. If it's a sealed can, the chances of metal getting into it are next to nil, I would have thought, but if you're worried, wrap it in tape first, sellotape, masking tape etc. I've never had any issue with damage to bearings. Another way to do it is to apply power to the motor and hold the disc against the rotating shaft. 

 

Jim

  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, justin1985 said:

Does anyone have any tips for cutting down the motor shafts on the Association can motors? 

 

I've dug out the chassis I'd built for an old Farish Jinty, and despite having previously mangled it when trying to make some tweaks, now have it running nicely. However as I used a UJ to mount the motor to be "removable", it sits quite a way back. The motor shaft on the other end pokes a long way back, and basically fills what seems like it would otherwise be the best space for a decoder / stay alive components.

 

I'm a bit cautious about taking a cutting disc to the shaft - I guess I have to take into account both forces on the bearings when cutting, and stray metal bits potentially getting into it?

 

J

 Another vote for wrapping the motor in masking tape. Do the cutting in short bursts so that the shaft doesn't get too hot (I managed to wreck a Mashima motor this way some years ago when the plastic around the bearing melted). Don't forget eye protection too.

 

Andy

  • Agree 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, justin1985 said:

Does anyone have any tips for cutting down the motor shafts on the Association can motors? 

 

I've dug out the chassis I'd built for an old Farish Jinty, and despite having previously mangled it when trying to make some tweaks, now have it running nicely. However as I used a UJ to mount the motor to be "removable", it sits quite a way back. The motor shaft on the other end pokes a long way back, and basically fills what seems like it would otherwise be the best space for a decoder / stay alive components.

 

I'm a bit cautious about taking a cutting disc to the shaft - I guess I have to take into account both forces on the bearings when cutting, and stray metal bits potentially getting into it?

 

J

Also, remember blu-tac is very useful for mopping up all of the swarf afterwards.

Ian

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Gold
9 hours ago, Lacathedrale said:

 

As a small addendum - I spent some time yesterday trying to get this to a repeatable state, and found that sometimes the bend back to parallel would result in the filed face ending up concave, since the thinner tip would bend more than the thicker base of the vee. After review, I found that the 'bend' portion of this process is described in the middle of the TRACK book and suggests using pliers to tweak the filed face back parallel. This worked for me as long as I gripped the rail at the very end of the filed face and tweaked it.

 

This resulted in two more fully supported vees that I'm more or less satisfied with. The bottom-most vee was my first (pictured above) and shows the slight concavity mentioned and will be desoldered and scrabbed, the upper two were done by tweaking with pliers:

 

e5285Cq.png

 

 

A couple of supplementary questions, since I'm at exactly this point (ha, pun) of continuing on now:

 

1) The common crossing assembly jigs are highly vaunted in TRACK but I found it quite hard to ensure that what I was using to tie the vee and wing rails together was situated either between timbers or ontop of them, depending on whether I'm using chaired track or not. Is there a simple way to do this? It feels like there's something obvious that I'm missing!

 

and 2) - this formation was originally laid purely as an experiment before starting over 'on the layout' - but it has been brought to my attention this could well be a waste of PCB as well as time if the work is good enough. Does anyone have any insight on where best to truncate the formation as pictured so it can be lifted and shifted onto the layout if it cuts the mustard?

 

gcERo9N.png

 

My gut feeling is to lay the vee and stock rails fairly 3-4 sleepers beyond the common crossing, staggered so that each timber has at least a couple of soldered connections, i.e. something like this:

 

MW0AGDV.png

 

I'm fairly certain rail joints for the vee and stock rails should be staggered for strength and alignment purposes, but not sure if they should be one side or another of the check rails, (i.e. top left corner), etc.

 

 

 

 

Cheers!

 

1. What I would have liked was some slots milled across to either take some PCB sleepers or some strips of brass to act as chairplates. The would enable you to build up the crossing on the top of them and see when the solder ws flowing nicely. I may try milling som out of my jig at some stage.

 

2. Ideally whan tpoint work adjoins close to another piece I would prefer to lift the whole lot as one assembly or build it in situ. I would suggest ideally when there is room for two full sleepers after the vee.

 

Don

Link to post
Share on other sites

42 minutes ago, Donw said:

 

1. What I would have liked was some slots milled across to either take some PCB sleepers or some strips of brass to act as chairplates. The would enable you to build up the crossing on the top of them and see when the solder ws flowing nicely. I may try milling som out of my jig at some stage.

 

(snipped)

 

Don

 

The problem with adding any slots is that you then lose the 'universal' nature of the jig. I seem to recall (and it was a long time ago, so my memory could well be faulty) that the recommended method was to build the crossing in the jig upside-down and use some thin etch (or 'versaline' chairplates) for the strips holding the vee and wing rails together. Positioning the support strips/chairplates should be straightforward - the crossing nose should always be supported on a timber (so that the tip of the vee sits above the edge of the chairplate) and the spacing of the remaining strips can then be measured from the plan you are working to. Soldering them to the rail from the ends (ie where they meet the rail) should suffice until you take the crossing out of the jig and you can then complete the soldered joints properly.

 

I've just checked on the Association website and the article mentioning the above is here;

 

http://2mm.org.uk/articles/handbook/Easitrac_Turnouts_Techniques.pdf

 

Andy

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Premium

And there is another way. On this very forum there is a useful area concerning 'Handbuilt track and Templot'. Now most of the discussion is for scales other than 2mm but then through most of my modelling life I have picked up most of my information from scales other than 2mm!

If you follow this link:

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/156112-simple-to-use-common-crossing-jig/

you will find a description of a jig from the EM Gauge Society and how to use it. If you then page down to an entry for July 1st you will see my version of the same jig but scaled down for 2FS.

If you then move on to page 3 of the thread you can see how I made use of it. Entry date is September 10th.

I do note that for filing and assembly of the vee I used the Association 1:6 jig. However, I have never been able to get on with the crossing assembly jig. Working upside down (!) always confused me, the strips across the underside of the rails never ended up in the right place and the distance from the nose of the vee to the knuckle never seemed to be the same as that on the Templot plan that I was using and invariably seemed to be too large. It may be my incompetence but it just didn't work for me. The EMGS jig design worked perfectly and the two points that I built worked with no further adjustment needed.

 

David

  • Like 3
  • Informative/Useful 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Gold

Excellent David must try that.  I m now thinking have it so a spacing  jig clamps down onto a bit of templot print with the crossing and you have the guide to check the angle well maybe.

 

Don

Link to post
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, DavidLong said:

If you follow this link:

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/156112-simple-to-use-common-crossing-jig/

you will find a description of a jig from the EM Gauge Society and how to use it. If you then page down to an entry for July 1st you will see my version of the same jig but scaled down for 2FS.

If you then move on to page 3 of the thread you can see how I made use of it. Entry date is September 10th.

I do note that for filing and assembly of the vee I used the Association 1:6 jig. However, I have never been able to get on with the crossing assembly jig. Working upside down (!) always confused me, the strips across the underside of the rails never ended up in the right place and the distance from the nose of the vee to the knuckle never seemed to be the same as that on the Templot plan that I was using and invariably seemed to be too large. It may be my incompetence but it just didn't work for me. The EMGS jig design worked perfectly and the two points that I built worked with no further adjustment needed.

 

David

 

Ingenious - great work David! What were the dimensions you arrived at for the jig in 2mm?

 

What are your non ply sleepers made from? Looks like ply or maybe even card, rather than plastic strip?

 

J

Link to post
Share on other sites

35 minutes ago, justin1985 said:

 

Ingenious - great work David! What were the dimensions you arrived at for the jig in 2mm?

J

 

Justin

 

The EMGS jig has its slots based (loosely) on the width of the timbers and spacing between the timbers, whilst the former is fixed the latter varies according to the size of switch, the jig being universal compensates for this problem by increasing the size of the slots in the brass strip, reducing the gap between timbers. Not perfect buy works well especially as I use brass strip 2 to 3 mm wide

 

The thickness of the brass etch only has to be thinner that the wing rail gap, the width of the strip along with the length are both personal preference (4mm scale its 120mm x 10 mm), the risers at the ends of the jig must be the same thickness and the strips being soldered to the rails

 

In use it takes a few goes at getting used to using the fig, especially I had issues in fitting the second wing rail. And its a bit hairy using flatbottom rail. (its not designed to do it)

 

Take care in making sure the wing rails are vertical, sounds obvious but easy to err

Also ensure the common crossing is level not bent. Its so easy to make it slightly curved.

 

Good luck

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Gold
On 21/09/2020 at 08:21, justin1985 said:

Does anyone have any tips for cutting down the motor shafts on the Association can motors? 

 

I've dug out the chassis I'd built for an old Farish Jinty, and despite having previously mangled it when trying to make some tweaks, now have it running nicely. However as I used a UJ to mount the motor to be "removable", it sits quite a way back. The motor shaft on the other end pokes a long way back, and basically fills what seems like it would otherwise be the best space for a decoder / stay alive components.

 

I'm a bit cautious about taking a cutting disc to the shaft - I guess I have to take into account both forces on the bearings when cutting, and stray metal bits potentially getting into it?

 

J

 

Here's how I did it.  As I wasn't cutting close to the can motor, I was a little casual about any protection for the bearings.  A 1mm shaft, as on the Association's can motor and many others,  won't take long to cut through or make a lot of swarf.   An open frame 1.5mm shaft motor will need some more protection.  I have been successful in pressing the shaft through the motor on open frame Tenshodo (Hanazono) motors, converting a double ended motor into a long shaft single ender.   You can't do that on a Mashima.
 

 

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Premium
6 hours ago, justin1985 said:

 

Ingenious - great work David! What were the dimensions you arrived at for the jig in 2mm?

 

What are your non ply sleepers made from? Looks like ply or maybe even card, rather than plastic strip?

 

J

 

The jig is made from two pieces of 15mm x 15mm pine strip of the sort available at DIY sheds. These sandwich a piece of ply which, as with all ply is a nominal size, in this case 0.5mm but is actually closer to 0.45mm. Interestingly the flangeway still works out ok and none of my locos or stock has any trouble with it.

I should add that the square pieces of card at the ends are to keep the rails level when adding the nickel cross pieces.

The sleepers are all ply or pcb. The pcb sleepers are from the Association and the ply versions are some that I had produced privately both as plain track sleepers and crossing timbers. I used to produce my own but decided that laser cutting was the better way. I could produce reasonable quality 2mm wide timbers for points but trying to produce conisistent 1.7mm wide plain sleepers was a bit of a nightmare. We did have some trouble with finding a nominal 0.8mm ply due to the usual variations of thin ply and the sleepers are about 0.9mm thick which has meant that the pcb timbers are boosted with thin paper attached to the underside.

 

David

Edited by DavidLong
  • Like 1
  • Informative/Useful 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Premium
On 21/09/2020 at 08:21, justin1985 said:

Does anyone have any tips for cutting down the motor shafts on the Association can motors? 

 

I would like to suggest Maskol as an alternative to masking tape.

You can watch me cutting the shaft off one of these motors in Part 27 of my Jubilee odyssey here: https://youtu.be/6TU4kB4KfUo?t=427

 

  • Like 1
  • Agree 1
  • Informative/Useful 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Another option for cutting a shaft and a use for all those unwanted plastic bags. Put the motor inside a small plastic bag. Then carefully push the shaft through the side of the bag. Cut the shaft. Then turn the bag inside out to recover the motor and confine the metal shards to what is now the inside of the bag.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for all the great tips on cutting motor shafts. I just used masking tape, and as Mark said the the Association can shaft is only 1mm, so it didn't take much cutting, or make much mess. Still, I took it slowly in about three passes, letting it cool down between. 

 

The Jinty has come together really well this time around, and I've even soldered on the crankpin washers - that's a first for me! (Picture mid way through). Still struggling to plan where to accommodate a decoder though - at least without grinding more of the inside of the body away. Maybe taking the motor out and cutting some length off the end of the shaft I am using might give a bit more space at the back.

 

It's a shame the really tiny CT decoders seem so difficult to get hold of now. The smallest decoder I have spare here now is a wired Zimo MX617. It looks like the 616 is a few mm smaller? Any other suggestions?

 

J

IMG-20200922-WA0030.jpeg

  • Like 6
Link to post
Share on other sites

I've ordered a Zimo 616 and an ESU Lokpilot Nano, so I'll see what fits! It looks like the ESU decoder has three extra wires trailing from the board - would these help with StayAlive at all? Or are they just for functions. I can't find the Nano in the ESU manual! Has anyone else tried that decoder?

 

Justin

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Premium
1 hour ago, justin1985 said:

I've ordered a Zimo 616 and an ESU Lokpilot Nano, so I'll see what fits! It looks like the ESU decoder has three extra wires trailing from the board - would these help with StayAlive at all? Or are they just for functions. I can't find the Nano in the ESU manual! Has anyone else tried that decoder?

 

Justin

 

You can download the LokPilot Nano manual from ESU. The link is about half way down this page: http://www.esu.eu/en/downloads/instruction-manuals/digital-decoders/

The purple and green extra wires are for functions. The blue wire is common positive, and will attach to one end of a Stay Alive.

It looks like you will need an additional wire from the 4th solder pad in line with the blue, green and purple wires to connect the StayAlive to the decoder's ground.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Morning gentlemen - I have two small questions, relating to a potential pre-group setting of a layout I'm building:

 

  1. If I assume 3D printed bodies, the only challenge for coaching stock is the underframe - is there a standard 28' 6w chassis available? Who should I contact to comission one?
  2. For those modelling the 19th century:
    1. Did you ballast over sleepers?
    2. Did you use chairplates/etc. or not bother?
    3. What material did you use to ballast? It would seem that my potential chosen company (the LCDR)  used shingle - so I would assume something like sharp sand mixed with filler or tiling grout, cleaned off the rail sides
Link to post
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Lacathedrale said:

Morning gentlemen - I have two small questions, relating to a potential pre-group setting of a layout I'm building:

 

  1. If I assume 3D printed bodies, the only challenge for coaching stock is the underframe - is there a standard 28' 6w chassis available? Who should I contact to comission one?
  2. For those modelling the 19th century:
    1. Did you ballast over sleepers?
    2. Did you use chairplates/etc. or not bother?
    3. What material did you use to ballast? It would seem that my potential chosen company (the LCDR)  used shingle - so I would assume something like sharp sand mixed with filler or tiling grout, cleaned off the rail sides


I did some 6w coach chassis for Jerry. He sold a number of ‘spares’ to fund them. It might be possible to adapt that design for you. PM me if you would like. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi William. 

Not aware of a generic full underframe, but a Bob Jones used to do a compensated Cleminson chassis which gave you the W-hangers adjustable to a range of wheelbases. David Everleigh might be able to help you. On my phone, so can't give you a link just now. 

 

On ballast, it depends on you company and period, Checking photos will give you clues. Chairperson make a difference in lifting the rail that little bit and creating more of a gap between it and the ballast. If your using Easitrac for plain track and pcb for turnouts, then you need chairpates to match up the height. 

For ballast I used fine sand mixed with a little bit of plaster of Paris and Cascamite powder glue. It was spread on dry and then very dilute PVA with a few drops of washing up liquid added dribbled on from an eye dropper. 

 

Jim

Edited by Caley Jim
Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...