Any Question Answered

[Nig H]

I have been working away at a rake of seven Plate wagons. I thought it would be an easy job: just knock out the etched chassis, fix the PECO bodies on and job done. In practice everything seems to be taking longer than expected. However, the wagons are finished and I have loads of steel sheet loaded into them. I've been informed that the loads would have been held in place with wedges of wood etc but I'm not sure what the best way is to represent these. One idea I have is to use PCB sleepers stripped of the cladding and suitably painted. These might be too big, but I'm not sure what size timbers might be used. Anyone any suggestions?

 

Here are some of the wagons.

 

 

 

Nigel Hunt

[-missy-]

Hi.

 

I am trying to form some Kibri embossed plastic stone sheet. So far I havent had much luck...

 

 

Gentle? Heat using a hot air gun.

 

 

Put in the oven on a low heat and left until soft.

 

As you can see, I am not having much luck. Has anyone got any help and advice on how it could be possible to form this plastic sheet without getting as much distortion? The plastic is injection moulded so I dont know if that means it acts differently to regular plasticard.

 

Thank you.

 

Julia.

[John Brenchley]

Hi Julia

 

How thick is Kibri embossed plastic?

 

I haven't come across it but have used the Ratio sheets.  These are ridiculously thick and I couldn't work with them without thinning them down.  I did this by attacked the back with a heavy rasp - rather time consuming but eventually I was able to get the thickness down to about 15 thou which is much easier to work with.

 

If you could do this with the Kibri sheet, would it then be flexible enough to hold round a suitable former and use the dunk in boiling water method?  You look like you are trying to bend in to quite a tight curve - it might be necessary to do the boiling water trick in several stages gradually tightening the bend.

 

Best wishes

 

John

[-missy-]

3 minutes ago, John Brenchley said:

Hi Julia

How thick is Kibri embossed plastic?

Best wishes

John

 

Thanks John.

 

I haven't tried the boiling water thing yet. Thank you for the advice.

The plastic is 1mm thick (40thou)

 

Julia.

[bécasse]

40 minutes ago, -missy- said:

 

I am trying to form some Kibri embossed plastic stone sheet. So far I havent had much luck...

 

A real wall built with semi-finished stones like that wouldn't be bent round a corner. Rather the cuboid stones would be laid in such a way that the result encompassed the corner with stones at the corner laid at angle to those either side. To replicate it you would need to cut individual stones from the sheet and refix them.

It isn't dissimilar to how a brick wall would cope with a rounded corner but the effect is more dramatic because the stones are significantly larger than bricks. In practice most stone walls would be laid with either a sharp corner or a rather gentler bend - or much smaller stones.

[Roger.s]

Hi Julia,

 

You need to heat only the bit you want to bend so could you mask the rest as you would for spray painting.  Use something like 1/16" wood which has a low thermal conductivity. If you fixed it with double sided sticky tape it might help keep the end flat and concentrate the bending force at the bend and reduce the force needed to produce such a tight bend.

 

 

[Jan W]

Perhaps file or mill a 90 degree slot in the rear face?

Then you won't have to bend the whole thickness.

[Nick Mitchell]

28 minutes ago, Jan W said:

Perhaps file or mill a 90 degree slot in the rear face?

Then you won't have to bend the whole thickness.

 On a similar theme - because it is a curve not a sharp bend, how about using a skrawker to cut a series of closely spaced parallel grooves on the reverse?

[-missy-]

Thank you very much for the replies guys, its really appreciated.

 

8 hours ago, bécasse said:

A real wall built with semi-finished stones like that wouldn't be bent round a corner. Rather the cuboid stones would be laid in such a way that the result encompassed the corner with stones at the corner laid at angle to those either side. To replicate it you would need to cut individual stones from the sheet and refix them.

It isn't dissimilar to how a brick wall would cope with a rounded corner but the effect is more dramatic because the stones are significantly larger than bricks. In practice most stone walls would be laid with either a sharp corner or a rather gentler bend - or much smaller stones.

 

I can see where you are comming from. Studying pictures though, to me it looks like there might be a certain amount of final fitting once the blocks are in position. No doubt the inner faces of the blocks would be square but wouldn't the square blocks be 'rounded off' on the outer faces to a degree so they fit? Its hard to tell...

 

 

6 hours ago, Nick Mitchell said:

 On a similar theme - because it is a curve not a sharp bend, how about using a skrawker to cut a series of closely spaced parallel grooves on the reverse?

 

I forgot to mention to complicate things a little, I have added a 3 degree (ish) taper towards the top of the wall (as in the picture above). I know it makes it harder because I am having to gain or loose material somewhere but I was hoping if I could get the plastic flexible enough, there would be just enough compliance to take up the relief.

 

Julia.

[osbornsmodels]

Hi Julia,

sounds like a job for lasered foam (like our Cotswold walling).

email me.

M

[Nigelcliffe]

20 minutes ago, osbornsmodels said:

Hi Julia,

sounds like a job for lasered foam (like our Cotswold walling).

 

 

Or hand scribing;  current favourite material is Polycell Light Weight Filler.  Apply a 2-3mm layer over structure, leave to set.  Sand gently. Then scribe.   The material takes water based paint really well.  

 

A friend building a large layout in EM has just done about 5m of retaining wall this way.  He's got several metres of sea wall to do next.  

[Roger.s]

Hi Julia,

 

Have you thought of 3D printing it?

[Nick Mitchell]

On 12/12/2020 at 15:53, Nig H said:

I have been working away at a rake of seven Plate wagons. I thought it would be an easy job: just knock out the etched chassis, fix the PECO bodies on and job done. In practice everything seems to be taking longer than expected. However, the wagons are finished and I have loads of steel sheet loaded into them. I've been informed that the loads would have been held in place with wedges of wood etc but I'm not sure what the best way is to represent these. One idea I have is to use PCB sleepers stripped of the cladding and suitably painted. These might be too big, but I'm not sure what size timbers might be used. Anyone any suggestions?

 

Here are some of the wagons.

 

 

 

Nigel Hunt

 

I was looking forward to somebody knowledgeable posting an answer to this question.

There doesn't seem to be much information out there, which I guess is why nobody has posted a reply.

 

After a bit of research, this is all I have managed to glean (mainly from British Railway Wagons Their Loads and Loading, Vol. 1):

Wooden blocks used to prevent movement of loads would be nailed to the wagon floor, not wedged into the gaps. There is no mention of the size of these, but I guess if they were to be nailed, that would limit them somewhat.

The example in the book of "timber chocks used to prevent longitudinal movement" is a photo of massively constructed cradles to support coils of thin steel.

I can't find any reference for this being done for steel plates, however. The weight of the load combined with the friction of the wooden floor would probably keep them in place.

If loading and unloading was to be done with a magnet, there would be no need for battens underneath or between the plates. in other situations, there would be a need to get ropes or hooks under the plates to lift them.

There is a photo on p.49 of the aforementioned book showing several small steel plates stacked directly on the floor of a plate wagon with no visible means of securing them.

The book says a load of plate steel shouldn't be higher than 4 inches below the top of the wagon sides, but in this photo some of them are level with the top of the sides.

The next wagons in the train are carrying wider steel plates on wagons with no sides. Those plates are chained to the wagons, with two chains going across the load but none going along the load.

 

British Railway Goods Wagons In Colour has a photo (p65) of some fairly chunky square section steel billets loaded in a plate wagon. The load fills the width of the wagon, but not the length, and there is no additional means of preventing fore and aft movement.

I found a couple of other photos of wagons in trains, but they are too small to see the detail of how the load is or isn't secured. There are no obvious packing/securing pieces, however.

In one (Freight Steam, p.55) there is a single long piece of steel seemingly strewn at a jaunty angle directly on the wagon floor.

 

I'm conscious I haven't answered your actual question about how to represent the wooden chocks, because a) I don't know, and b) I don't think you need them.

The models look very nice, by the way.

[Nig H]

2 hours ago, Nick Mitchell said:

 

I was looking forward to somebody knowledgeable posting an answer to this question.

There doesn't seem to be much information out there, which I guess is why nobody has posted a reply.

 

After a bit of research, this is all I have managed to glean (mainly from British Railway Wagons Their Loads and Loading, Vol. 1):

Wooden blocks used to prevent movement of loads would be nailed to the wagon floor, not wedged into the gaps. There is no mention of the size of these, but I guess if they were to be nailed, that would limit them somewhat.

The example in the book of "timber chocks used to prevent longitudinal movement" is a photo of massively constructed cradles to support coils of thin steel.

I can't find any reference for this being done for steel plates, however. The weight of the load combined with the friction of the wooden floor would probably keep them in place.

If loading and unloading was to be done with a magnet, there would be no need for battens underneath or between the plates. in other situations, there would be a need to get ropes or hooks under the plates to lift them.

There is a photo on p.49 of the aforementioned book showing several small steel plates stacked directly on the floor of a plate wagon with no visible means of securing them.

The book says a load of plate steel shouldn't be higher than 4 inches below the top of the wagon sides, but in this photo some of them are level with the top of the sides.

The next wagons in the train are carrying wider steel plates on wagons with no sides. Those plates are chained to the wagons, with two chains going across the load but none going along the load.

 

British Railway Goods Wagons In Colour has a photo (p65) of some fairly chunky square section steel billets loaded in a plate wagon. The load fills the width of the wagon, but not the length, and there is no additional means of preventing fore and aft movement.

I found a couple of other photos of wagons in trains, but they are too small to see the detail of how the load is or isn't secured. There are no obvious packing/securing pieces, however.

In one (Freight Steam, p.55) there is a single long piece of steel seemingly strewn at a jaunty angle directly on the wagon floor.

 

I'm conscious I haven't answered your actual question about how to represent the wooden chocks, because a) I don't know, and b) I don't think you need them.

The models look very nice, by the way.

Hello Nick,

 

Thanks for your reply. What you say about securing loads is consistent with what I'd been told by Simon Grand or read in BR 'Instructions and Diagrams for securing...' (BR20426), and another source, the name of which I've forgotten. The easiest way forward might be to leave the loads as they are and not bother with 'wooden blocks'.

 

Nigel Hunt

[65179]

7 minutes ago, Nig H said:

Hello Nick,

 

Thanks for your reply. What you say about securing loads is consistent with what I'd been told by Simon Grand or read in BR 'Instructions and Diagrams for securing...' (BR20426), and another source, the name of which I've forgotten. The easiest way forward might be to leave the loads as they are and not bother with 'wooden blocks'.

 

Nigel Hunt

 

Hi Nigel,

 

The other source was probably Geoff Kent's The 4mm Wagon Vol.3. That included his plate wagon loaded with steel plate without any wooden blocks, but observing the no less than 4" below the top of wagon sides stated in the BR loading instructions document you refer to on the Barrowmore MRG site. 

 

Was the photo with plate loaded to the top of the wagon internal user of actually on the BR network Nick? Thick plate or a billet might well not shift as you suggest, but thinner plate above or near the top of a wagon would be an accident waiting to happen.  That said, it all goes to show that just because something is 'wrong' doesn't make it unprototypical. Roping an SR container according to the loading instructions was probably only observed in the breach, for example.

 

Simon

[Caley Jim]

While I can't give any definitive answer the the question of how steel plate was secured (or not), the report in an old issue of The True Line (journal of the Caledonian Railway Association) of an accident at Beattock on 6th October 1971 may shed some light.  It involved two trains of steel.  8Z26 left Dalziel New Yard (Motherwell) at 00.30 headed for Kingmoor, double headed by Clayton and Derby type 2's and running partially fitted at a maximum 35 mph.  It carried steel plates and joists on trestrols and bogie bolsters with empty conflats as spacers where required.  6V41was also running from Dalziel headed for Margam in S Wales carrying steel coil on 24 brand new Steel AB's, headed by a Brush type 4 No 1836 and left at 01:40.  this train had been tripped in two parts from Ravenscraig and, because of delays, assembled in a hurry.

The two man crew were uncertain as to whether a brake test had been carried out, but on the descent from Craigenhill, all seemed to be well.  As they started the descent of Beattock, however they realised they had little on no train brake.  It passed Greskin box with the emergency brake on, horn sounding and catherine wheels of sparks flying from the wheels.  As they began to get red signals the crew realised they were rapidly catching 8Z26 and retreated to the rear cab.  The following lengthy quote from the article describes the aftermath:

'Twenty four hours after 6V51 plunged into the rear of 8Z26, the cutting two miles south of Beattock was still full to the top with wreckage. 1836 was lying on its right side, the bodyshell completely disembowelled right back to the main engine bulkhead, and the rear cab part-crushed under the leading wagon of the train. Some 150 yards behind it the whole of the front of the cab could be seen where it was torn off in one piece on impact. Incredibly, the crew had survived in the rear cab. Not so fortunate was the guard on 8Z26. A Motherwell man, with a lifetime of service to the railway and not long till retiral, he had been killed instantly when 1836 hit his brakevan at a speed differential of approaching 60 mph. Beneath the battered yellow front end of the diesel as it lay on the ground was the frame of the brakevan. Wherever you looked, the scene was a junkyard of scrap wagons. The steel coil on 6V51 - two coils per wagon- was loaded 'eye to the sky' and though restrained laterally on the Steel AB's, sat on the wagons by its own weight. On impact the coils had taken to the air, and where the banding had broken, the steel had unwound itself and was draped over wagons, fences and into the trees. On the other side of a farm bridge which crossed the cutting was 8Z26, the train divided, and the rear half concertina'd and spread-eagled over both running lines. Steel plates weighing several tons had been tossed to the ground. The force had sheared a trestrol wagon clean in two pieces, and one conflat stood vertically on its end, the buffers of the two bogie bolsters it had been under-running meeting neatly though the conflat floor.'

 

It would therefore seem from this that there was no restraint to vertical displacement of the steel plate and coil.

 

Jim (with apologies for the lengthy post.)

 

Edited December 21, 2020 by Caley Jim
Reformatting quote

[Nick Mitchell]

2 hours ago, 65179 said:

Was the photo with plate loaded to the top of the wagon internal user of actually on the BR network Nick? Thick plate or a billet might well not shift as you suggest, but thinner plate above or near the top of a wagon would be an accident waiting to happen.

The caption just describes it as "a train of loaded plate wagons". It doesn't look internal user to me. The plates in question must be over an inch thick, and I suspect quite heavy.

[Nick Mitchell]

 

4 hours ago, Nig H said:

The easiest way forward might be to leave the loads as they are and not bother with 'wooden blocks'.

 

That is what I would do for steel plates.

 

Out of curiosity, I had a look on Paul Bartlett's website, and found a photo showing wooden chocks nailed to the floor of a lowfit:

(These images are not copied here, but the URL is inserted. Right-click, copy image address to get to the original)

 

 

I've seen a picture in a book showing chocks like this preventing round(ish) steel billets loaded across a plate wagon from rolling back and forth.

 

Here's another one with much more substantial planks arranged to secure a rather different sort of load:

 

 

Finally, this picture was posted on the Hornby forum, and is the only one I can find on-line showing Plate wagon loaded with steel. They are obviously not plates, but the lumps of steel are just plonked in there.

 

 

[Donw]

On 20/12/2020 at 10:06, bécasse said:

A real wall built with semi-finished stones like that wouldn't be bent round a corner. Rather the cuboid stones would be laid in such a way that the result encompassed the corner with stones at the corner laid at angle to those either side. To replicate it you would need to cut individual stones from the sheet and refix them.

It isn't dissimilar to how a brick wall would cope with a rounded corner but the effect is more dramatic because the stones are significantly larger than bricks. In practice most stone walls would be laid with either a sharp corner or a rather gentler bend - or much smaller stones.

 

Well  having worked with stones you tend to pick suitable stones for the wall you are making some stones have a natural curve and can do the job well others can be judiciously joined but there is always some that stick out somewhere depending on the type of stone some can be shaped with a hammer others just split in natural planes and will have nowt to do with shaping. Quite often smaller stones or stones laid with their longest side perpendicular to the run of the wall work best. Indeed bricks used for curved walls are often laid like that. 

I would suggest that to properly make curved stone walls you would need to cut up separate stone and build a wall with them. Anyone who has seen Jeffs drystone walls on KL1 and KL2 has seen how much difference that can make.

Don

[Ian Smeeton]

Having had a small disaster blackening and oxidising a soldering iron bit, I see that tip tinner/cleaners are available.

 

Does it make any difference whether this is lead free or not.

 

I use Eileen's solder paste, leaded multicore, and some tin/lead/silver for various jobs.

 

Any advice.

 

Regards

Ian

[Nigelcliffe]

What sometimes works for tip-cleaner is solder paint (eg: Carrs 188 type).  The price of the Eileen's product suggests it is similar, so this may work. 

With a cold iron, paint a fairly generous amount of solder paint all over the tip, covering the mess.  Turn on the iron, and as it warms, the solder will bring much of the mess off the iron;  wipe it on a normal tip wipe:  I use a dry copper brillo-pad thing, but I think a wet sponge will also work.  

 

Tip cleaners will often work, but having spare bits for the soldering iron is the only sure-fire way !

 

- Nigel

[Ian Smeeton]

16 minutes ago, Nigelcliffe said:

What sometimes works for tip-cleaner is solder paint (eg: Carrs 188 type).  The price of the Eileen's product suggests it is similar, so this may work. 

With a cold iron, paint a fairly generous amount of solder paint all over the tip, covering the mess.  Turn on the iron, and as it warms, the solder will bring much of the mess off the iron;  wipe it on a normal tip wipe:  I use a dry copper brillo-pad thing, but I think a wet sponge will also work.  

 

Tip cleaners will often work, but having spare bits for the soldering iron is the only sure-fire way !

 

- Nigel

 

Thank you, Nigel.

 

I do have spare bits, but only one large chisel bit, the one which I have mightily oxidised.

 

I particularly wanted that one , as I am currently building a kit with several laminations, and wanted the best chance of getting the heat in.

 

Much appreciated,

 

Ian

[Crosland]

I have succesfully re-invigorated a badly treated bit (left the iron on overnight by mistake) by a combination of tip cleaner (the stiff paste in a small tin, solder, wet sponge and actually using it as much as possible. Using cored solder means you are fluxing the tip as well as the work each time you make a joint. The tip gets cleaner over time until it's back to normal.

[Nig H]

On 25/12/2020 at 16:02, Ian Smeeton said:

Having had a small disaster blackening and oxidising a soldering iron bit, I see that tip tinner/cleaners are available.

 

Does it make any difference whether this is lead free or not.

 

I use Eileen's solder paste, leaded multicore, and some tin/lead/silver for various jobs.

 

Any advice.

 

Regards

Ian

Every now and then my soldering iron bit seems to get covered in a sticky furry gunge which I have to clean off with a glass fibre brush and knife blade when the bit is cold. I wish I knew why this happens. I too find I can best re-tin the bit using solder paint applied while the bit is cold, then heating it up and cleaning as Nigel C described. I don't know what sort of solder paint it is as my Dad gave it to me in a 100g coffee jar 46 years ago. I top the paint up with Carrs Black flux every now and then, and give it a stir to stop it solidifying at the bottom of the jar.

 

I'd like to wish everyone a safe and happy New Year, hopefully back to something like normality as soon as possible.

 

Nigel Hunt

Edited December 27, 2020 by Nig H

[dseagull]

Hi all;

 

Happy new year! - let's hope this one is remembered for better reasons than the last. In June last year I joined the 2mm Association having recently moved into our new house. Whilst the events of last year put us behind where we wanted to be at this point, I am still very keen to restart modelling and as such, have been playing around with a few ideas for my first 2mm project, and now that the Christmas spending is out of the way (3 kids!), I have a new soldering station awaiting purchase with the 2mm Mineral Wagon starter kit sitting on my desk. 

 

The below is the plan, based on a long-standing idea for a 'might of been' line running from Seaford, through the Cuckmere Valley, rejoining what is now the Brighton-Eastbourne 'East Coastway' line between Berwick and Polegate. Whilst it didn't happen in reality, there were some proposals and shingle extraction at Cuckmere Haven did have an industrial, narrow gauge line until the 60's. The layout itself will be set immediately pre-WW1, running LBSCR stock, of which I have seen there is a surprising amount available.

 

All points are B9, which will allow me to use the Easitrac pegged turnout kits (I think!) which, given that I have struggled with soldering in the past makes sense to me. What I enjoy most is scenics, and all buildings are mostly scaled down versions of prototypes within the local area (the Church, for example, is the one at Litlington ), whilst the station building is Hailsham for which plans (helpfully to 2mm scale!) exist in the A.C Elliott/Wild Swan 'Cuckoo Line' book currently sitting on my bookshelf, with the others dimensionally accurate for certain Scalescenes kits.

 

Does this seem like a sensible/achievable plan? Any obvious flaws/areas which will cause me difficulty in trackbuilding/laying? The ultimate goal would be to get this to an exhibitable stage one day. 

 

Thanks