Any Question Answered

[Lacathedrale]

I've got Lenz Gold/Silver/Standard chips in all my locos and a Roco Z21 handset - it's just incredibly user unfriendly. Everything about it makes me unhappy - a curvy plastic controller with a blue back-lit LCD screen, spongy buttons and endless faffing with toggles and scrolling text.   Loco doesn't start - is it the track? the wheels? the wiring? the chip? the DCC system? the address?

 

On my OO layout I absolutely will keep it - locos that have plenty of room for lights, decoders and sound, no need to re-chassis anything or hollow out the inside of models and castings to take chips/etc. - but since I've never tried 2mm on DC, I'm only seeing a rosy view of it against my known-niggles with DCC in 2mm.

 

I'm absolutely sure as other aspects become solved problems (such as reliably building chassis, laying better track, becoming more familiar with the DCC system) it will become a moot point, but for now it's adding a layer of complexity and uncertainty that I'm definitely NOT benefiting from at this point...

 

 

Edited March 3, 2020 by Lacathedrale

[Tim V]

That's odd. I like the Roco controllers - very easy to use. I have several red ones and one wifi controller, nothing but praise for them.

 

However, this is a 2mm thread - so not appropriate to discuss here.

Edited March 3, 2020 by Tim V
Added sentence.

[Donw]

It you want to use DC Brian Tilbury designed a simple PWM controller and described it in the 2mm Mag years ago. Otherwise I suggest a simple gaugemaster one. The model W would be suitable if you have a 16v ac supply. Although they do offer a wall mounted supply to suit.

 

Don

[Caley Jim]

I have a Digitrax Zephyr and also one of their hand held units.  I find it very easy and intuitive to use.  Most locos are fitted with CTElectronik chips, except my latest which has a Zimo, CT ones being hard to come by now.

 

I agree that it takes the control of 2FS locos to another level.

 

Jim

[Ian Morgan]

My earlier layouts used home-made, rudimetary emitter-follower controllers. Later, I had a Gaugemaster that I used with my micro-layout 'Brunswick', which worked nicely with a Farish Class 33. When I started Freshwater, the Gaugemaster again provided adequate control for analogue locos. However, I wired up the layout to make it simple to switch between analogue and DCC, as I suspected I might try DCC at a future date. Since I first plugged in a DCC command station (Merg) I have never switched the layout back to analogue. It was analogous to getting our first colour TV, after years of black and white.

 

[D869]

On 29/02/2020 at 16:57, Tim V said:

So I'm trying to press the Dapol worm off their motor, to use on an association motor, but having no luck, any suggestions? All my pullers are too big for the 1mm shaft.

 

Not sure if this is still available but I have some 1mm adapter thingies from NWSL in the states. The number on the packaging is 4540-4. You get one with a short spigot for starting the job and a longer one for use as the shaft disappears further down the hole.

 

I dont have an NWSL puller but these tools work fine with my GW Models puller. Sometimes I make a support plate to go behind the worm/wheel/whatever with a smaller slot than the one in the puller.

 

I had a quick shufty on the NWSL site.

 

https://nwsl.com/collections/the-puller-ii/products/the-puller-ii

 

This is the puller but the picture includes something that looks very much like what I have - the black thing with the handle sticking out.

 

Regards, Andy

[Tim V]

Thanks, but things have moved on. As the motor was scrap, I used a blow torch on it, got the worm glowing red (!), then when cooled down cut the shaft between motor and worm and finally was able to knock the worm off.

[justin1985]

Yesterday I returned to an etched Association loco chassis that I'd been working on a good few months ago and put away when I got distracted with other things (intended for the old Farish 57xx, but I'm planning to use it for an LNER J52).

 

The original problem was quartering - I just couldn't get the rear axle successfully quartered. This time I took the offending wheels out by melting off the muff, and re-fitted them using the Association jig. Now the quartering seems good - it rolls extremely freely with the rods reversed on either combination of front and centre, or centre and rear axles.

 

BUT with the rods on properly, and retained close to the wheels with cable sleeve (but with some play) it occasionally binds and doesn't seem to run as freely. BUT if I let the rods run further out on their pins (i.e. the cable sleeve only on the very end of the pins so a good 2mm or so of lateral play) it runs really smoothly again! 

 

Any ideas? 

[richbrummitt]

15 minutes ago, justin1985 said:

Yesterday I returned to an etched Association loco chassis that I'd been working on a good few months ago and put away when I got distracted with other things (intended for the old Farish 57xx, but I'm planning to use it for an LNER J52).

 

The original problem was quartering - I just couldn't get the rear axle successfully quartered. This time I took the offending wheels out by melting off the muff, and re-fitted them using the Association jig. Now the quartering seems good - it rolls extremely freely with the rods reversed on either combination of front and centre, or centre and rear axles.

 

BUT with the rods on properly, and retained close to the wheels with cable sleeve (but with some play) it occasionally binds and doesn't seem to run as freely. BUT if I let the rods run further out on their pins (i.e. the cable sleeve only on the very end of the pins so a good 2mm or so of lateral play) it runs really smoothly again! 

 

Any ideas? 

 

Do you use flanged crank pins or something between the rod and the wheel boss? I've found that the rod can catch the boss without such. Maybe the quartering could be further improved however - and based on what you have written - I have assumed that this is not an every revolution of the wheels in the same place occurrence and this suggests to me that something else could be at work. 

 

Splitting the rods is one possible (and perhaps relatively easy) out from your present situation. 

[Tim V]

Are the crankpins at right angles to the wheels?

[Argos]

Or the wheels may not be aligned, one may have been inserted into the muffs less far than it's opposite wheel meaning the wheels on one side are not a consistent distance from the chassis but all quartered correctly and in gauge. 

 

Been there done that.........

Edited March 5, 2020 by Argos

[richbrummitt]

5 minutes ago, Argos said:

one may have been inserted into the muffins

 

Muffs still subject to autocorrection/censorship? Made me chuckle - thank you.

[Argos]

Indeed! Now corrected. I proof read the post a couple of times before hitting send as well.....

 

I wonder if muffins could substitute? But this probably says more about my baking skills than modelling ones.

[justin1985]

22 minutes ago, richbrummitt said:

 

Do you use flanged crank pins or something between the rod and the wheel boss? I've found that the rod can catch the boss without such. Maybe the quartering could be further improved however - and based on what you have written - I have assumed that this is not an every revolution of the wheels in the same place occurrence and this suggests to me that something else could be at work. 

 

Splitting the rods is one possible (and perhaps relatively easy) out from your present situation. 

 

Thanks Rich. They are flanged crankpins, and I had been careful to keep their faces free of paint etc., and the faces of the rods are smoothed off neatly with a very fine file. I guess checking the crankpin flanges under a lens might not be a bad idea. 

 

The binding was occurring at the same spot - 90/270 degrees, but only in one direction. That does indeed suggest quartering, doesn't it? 

 

Well - one step forward, ten steps back! 

 

I tried the rods reversed again and noticed a very slight binding on the rear pair of axles. So I tried adjusting the quartering by hand, and made it infinitely worse each time. I just don't know how anyone can adjust quartering by hand by the requisite one or two degrees at a time - the force required to get any movement seems so great that the minimum movement possible seems much too much. 

 

So I evolved a technique of returning it to the jig, holding one side with the wheel flush against the jig and then using a small screwdriver to adjust the wheel facing me, such that i could close the jig onto it without any resistance at all. Having got the previously suspect rear axle set up that way, it seemed like the others were around 1 degree out, so I adjusted them so the same trick worked. 

 

Now - nothing! According to the jig, the wheels can't be anything other than quartered. Each axle set up the same way on the same jig, facing the same way, etc. But now it won't turn more than a quarter!

 

(is there a possibility of the jig not working correctly if the quarter plates were soldered up with a bit of a slant or something? I would have thought, though, that even if they weren't quite right, being used consistently should still get the right result? Did i see the etched quarter plates are being replaced with milled ones?)

 

Quartering still seems very much like a dark art to me - some people seem to just have the knack of adjusting by hand, but I just don't. It's enough to make me want to only model four-coupled locos now! 

 

1 hour ago, Tim V said:

Are the crankpins at right angles to the wheels?

 

As far as it is possible for me to discern! Any tips for checking? The flanged crankpins prevent putting a straight edge against them or anything, so far as I can see.

 

1 hour ago, Argos said:

Or the wheels may not be aligned, one may have been inserted into the muffs less far than it's opposite wheel meaning the wheels on one side are not a consistent distance from the chassis but all quartered correctly and in gauge. 

 

Been there done that.........

 

Also been there, done that. I thought I was being very careful on that this time around. All the wheels were pressed into the muffs with one of the half etched spacers from the jig kit between muff and bearing, and full thickness ones between rear of wheel and frames. Any differential left from closing them in against the gauge is going to be tiny, I would have thought?

 

All these attempts to adjust are resulting in the wheel spokes starting to get distorted and the guard iron parts of the frames etc getting bent

 

[Caley Jim]

Stop the chassis where it binds and try and find out which rod is tight.  Then try gently reaming out the crankpin holes, just a tiny fraction each time, re-trying in between.  It's surprising how much 'slop' you can have and it still runs smoothly.   It sounds to me as though one pair of crankpin holes are slightly too close and the rods are slipping outwards to compensate for this when they are not held tight against the wheels.  Worth looking to see how close to the wheels they are in that situation.

 

Jim

[CF MRC]

I always look closely (with magnification) at the position of the crank pin in the holes as the wheels are rotated. The wheel quartering might then be adjusted to put the pin in the correct place.  If that doesn’t work then I might start to horizontally stretch the hole to achieve the centring of the pin.  Do not make these adjustments on the driven axle: that must stay a good fit with the coupling rod.  Once the rods are working OK, I might open out the oval holes to be more circular, but keeping the holes centred in their new position.
 

I hand quarter wheels at a wide gauge so that the adjustment is reasonably easy. Once the chassis is reasonably free running then the wheels are squeezed up to B to B measurement.  I have used the jig but still ended up doing it by hand. 

 

Tim

 

Edited March 5, 2020 by CF MRC

[Izzy]

When I get stuck like this I find putting the rods to one side and cutting a couple of strips of suitable thickness plasticard drilled at what should be the correct crankpin distances quite good for working out if the quartering is out, or the crankpin throw on one of the wheels , or the rods are out somewhere, I've experienced all three at times, although not often all at once.

 

Re quartering and adjusting/setting it up, this is the reason I would not build a chassis without removable/drop-in wheelsets. Then they can be mounted and quartered before putting in the chassis, and easily removed and adjusted if needed.

 

Izzy

[richbrummitt]

4 hours ago, justin1985 said:

 

 It's enough to make me want to only model four-coupled locos now! 

 

 

Easier to get the quartering satisfactory for running but, often, harder to balance. 

[D869]

Not sure if this is all 100% scientific but at least somewhat justifiable and it works for me...

 

For a 6 coupled loco you can usually isolate things a bit more by flipping the rod lengthwise and then just fitting it to two axles instead of all three.

 

If the rods bind with one wheel at top dead centre and the other with the crank horizontal then the problem is likely on the side with the horizontal crank - perhaps the rods are too short or long or one of the pins is not perpendicular. Take the TDC side rod off, set the other side to the position where it is binding and rotate each wheel in turn a few degrees in either direction to see if you can pinpoint where and why it is happening.

 

If they bind with both sides at 45 degrees (ish) then it's more likely to be quartering. If you cant see which way it is 'out' then I can only suggest trial and error - but do keep note of what you tweaked and in which direction every time.

 

I have used the quartering jig on several locos and usually end up making minor tweaks by hand afterwards. It does get you close and also has the advantage of pushing the wheels into the muffs squarely.

 

Stick with it!

[Chris Higgs]

On 05/03/2020 at 18:36, justin1985 said:

 

I tried the rods reversed again and noticed a very slight binding on the rear pair of axles. So I tried adjusting the quartering by hand, and made it infinitely worse each time. I just don't know how anyone can adjust quartering by hand by the requisite one or two degrees at a time - the force required to get any movement seems so great that the minimum movement possible seems much too much. 

 

 

 

This is why some such as Mick Simpson advocate reaming out the muffs such thay are a looser fit on the wheels. Easy to adjust and when finally happy you can put superglue into a hole in the muff to lock the quartering down.

 

Chris

[justin1985]

Many thanks for all the suggestions! 

 

I think where I had it previously, it would have been ready for the opening out of crankpin holes as Jim and Tim suggested. But after fiddling with it, I think I'll have to make another fresh start with the quartering. I've put it away for now and I'll try to come back to it fresh again, after a break working on other projects.

 

One thing did occur to me about the jig - I've had far more trouble quartering with chassis using 9mm wheels (Jinty and 57xx) than I did with J94 (8.5mm wheels) or new Farish 4F conversion (9.5mm). I've got a funny feeling I might have soldered up the quarter plates out of true. Looking at them, there is a little bit of a slant to the stack of etches. I might order a replacement for my next try - I think they now comes as milled plates?

 

J

 

 

[Alex Duckworth]

I've always found that it is easier to make minute adjustments to quartering if you insert the the spikes of a small pair of dividers between the wheel spokes. As well as allowing fine movements you also improve your purchase on the wheel.

 

Alex.

[D869]

7 hours ago, justin1985 said:

One thing did occur to me about the jig - I've had far more trouble quartering with chassis using 9mm wheels (Jinty and 57xx) than I did with J94 (8.5mm wheels) or new Farish 4F conversion (9.5mm). I've got a funny feeling I might have soldered up the quarter plates out of true. Looking at them, there is a little bit of a slant to the stack of etches. I might order a replacement for my next try - I think they now comes as milled plates?

 

 

One of those creme brulee kitchen blowtorches should be enough to unstick the layers if you want to have another go at it.

 

Regards, Andy

[queensquare]

7 hours ago, justin1985 said:

Many thanks for all the suggestions! 

 

 

One thing did occur to me about the jig - I've had far more trouble quartering with chassis using 9mm wheels (Jinty and 57xx) than I did with J94 (8.5mm wheels) or new Farish 4F conversion (9.5mm). I've got a funny feeling I might have soldered up the quarter plates out of true. Looking at them, there is a little bit of a slant to the stack of etches. I might order a replacement for my next try - I think they now comes as milled plates?

 

Shouldnt make any differensce. It doesn't matter if the quartering isn't 90 so long as they are all the same which if you are using the same plates, the same way round, they should be.

 

Jerry

7 hours ago, justin1985 said:

 

 

[Caley Jim]

6 hours ago, Alex Duckworth said:

I've always found that it is easier to make minute adjustments to quartering if you insert the the spikes of a small pair of dividers between the wheel spokes. As well as allowing fine movements you also improve your purchase on the wheel.

I do it by inserting the blade of a small watchmaker's screwdriver between the spokes and gently turning it.

 

Jim