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What's the wheelbase and bogie centres for the 121? @justin1985 kindly advised that there are some Tomix mechanisms up for preorder on 1999.co.jp.

 

The bogie centres for non-LSWR 4Sub and 4EPB are 44' and 46'6" respectively - the TM-17 mechanism has 90mm bogie centres as near as damnit, for £20 - although it does have most of the mechanism and drive train under the solebar, so presumably would preclude authentic underframe detail - with VAT and a handling fee for a pair equating to £30 per motor vehicle plus the cost/time for reprofiling the wheels?

 

On the other hand, something that I can just drop in replacement axles into might be worth the extra. Is there a specific model number from Bachmann-Farish which has the dual motor bogies?

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17 hours ago, Chris Higgs said:

 

There are Dapol worms on the site of DCC Supplies, I 'm willing to bet they are MOD 0.3 given that that all of Dapol's gears seems to be.

 

Lots of MOD 0.2 and MOD 0.3 brass worms here;

 

https://www.sol-expert-group.de/1-87-model-building/Screws-and-cog-wheels/Snails-M0-2-and-M0-3:::48_98_70.html

 

They also do brass gears of various types which might be of interest.

 

I haven't ordered from them so can't comment on quality, etc.

 

Andy

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24 minutes ago, Lacathedrale said:

What's the wheelbase and bogie centres for the 121? @justin1985 kindly advised that there are some Tomix mechanisms up for preorder on 1999.co.jp.

 

The bogie centres for non-LSWR 4Sub and 4EPB are 44' and 46'6" respectively - the TM-17 mechanism has 90mm bogie centres as near as damnit, for £20 - although it does have most of the mechanism and drive train under the solebar, so presumably would preclude authentic underframe detail - with VAT and a handling fee for a pair equating to £30 per motor vehicle plus the cost/time for reprofiling the wheels?

 

 

In the Tomix I've looked at,  the moulded piece below the sole-bar is partly structural (stop the chassis flexing along its length, though other bits of the chassis also stop some flex), and partly a place to hide a metal weight.   So, subject to taking care over chassis flexing, you can cut it away.  I've cut a slot in one recently to hide a DCC decoder, but that was for a model which has a lot of sold stuff below sole-bar.

 

Wheel re-profiling:  I'd be a bit cautious about "just sending them away", because of the back-to-back, or the wheels won't be pushed very far into the central muff/gear and thus wobble around.     It may be possible to fit a tyre to a turned down wheel, from the front of the wheel.

 

 

 

 

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51 minutes ago, Izzy said:

Thanks Chris, that certainly looks a far better design, and with better wiring on the whole by the looks of it. The 153/156 have the 'super creep' motor type with the motor and drive at/below floor level. Because of the width of the motor when laid flat the whole underframe is just a wide block with a bit of relief detail on the side. If you can as you say swap bogies about to get two power units from one 121 chassis with just another motor it seems quite economical and beneficial.

 

Izzy

 

MinerChris needed to install a replacement Tramfabriek motor in his 122 to get it to run properly. They seem to do quite a trade in them so maybe factor two new motors into your sums :)

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44 minutes ago, Lacathedrale said:

Is there a specific model number from Bachmann-Farish which has the dual motor bogies?

 

371-503 Class 101 Power Twin DMU Express Parcels is the two motor units. Whether you could find one now is another matter.......They are of course first gen 57' DMU's with 8'6" bogies at 40' centres.

 

No easy answers to all of this is there...

 

 

12 minutes ago, D869 said:

 

MinerChris needed to install a replacement Tramfabriek motor in his 122 to get it to run properly. They seem to do quite a trade in them so maybe factor two new motors into your sums :)

 

Oh dear, no easy answers to all of this at all......!

 

Happy modelling....ahem..

 

Izzy

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1 hour ago, Lacathedrale said:

What's the wheelbase and bogie centres for the 121? @justin1985 kindly advised that there are some Tomix mechanisms up for preorder on 1999.co.jp.

 

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_121 - 8'6 bogies and 46'6 pivot centres

 

I notice they have some Green Max in stock too. Historically this brand had better answers for 1st gen DMUs. The product numbers seem now to be in the 57xx range and most of the listings dont quote the bogie wheelbase but maybe there is hope for a 17mm or 17.5mm wheelbase bogie one day?

 

... or maybe they have moved on to making GWR Pannier tanks now?

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2 hours ago, Izzy said:

Thanks Chris, that certainly looks a far better design, and with better wiring on the whole by the looks of it. The 153/156 have the 'super creep' motor type with the motor and drive at/below floor level. Because of the width of the motor when laid flat the whole underframe is just a wide block with a bit of relief detail on the side. If you can as you say swap bogies about to get two power units from one 121 chassis with just another motor it seems quite economical and beneficial.

 

Izzy

 

I did get my powered 121 back together eventaully, a lot of faff with all the wiring. In the end I discovered all I needed to do was to pull out the drive shaft from one end - which you can do without taking the body apart! And replace that bogie with one from the dummy unit. Runs better now with only one bogie powered, which is what I have seen reported for the 4mm versions too.

 

The motor is also partially  below the solebar, but is a narrower design and so the underframe detailing looks acceptable as the box to contain the motor is narrower. The bogies on the other hand are horribly wide and if it could be done, would greatly benefit from etched sideframe replacements.

 

Chris

 

Edited by Chris Higgs
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1 hour ago, Lacathedrale said:

What's the wheelbase and bogie centres for the 121? @justin1985 kindly advised that there are some Tomix mechanisms up for preorder on 1999.co.jp.

 

The bogie centres for non-LSWR 4Sub and 4EPB are 44' and 46'6" respectively - the TM-17 mechanism has 90mm bogie centres as near as damnit, for £20 - although it does have most of the mechanism and drive train under the solebar, so presumably would preclude authentic underframe detail - with VAT and a handling fee for a pair equating to £30 per motor vehicle plus the cost/time for reprofiling the wheels?

 

On the other hand, something that I can just drop in replacement axles into might be worth the extra. Is there a specific model number from Bachmann-Farish which has the dual motor bogies?

 

Class 121s are standard BR long wheelbase units, so 46'6" centres and 8'6" wheelbase.

 

Chris

 

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Thanks all - it seems that a single 121 is £120ish, and a dual-motor 101 is £150ish - so probably better off with the latter? Is it all the two-car Bachmann-farish 101's that are dual powered, i.e. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/N-Gauge-Graham-Farish-371-505-Class-101-Two-Car-DMU-BR-Network-Souheast-BNIB/264669589820?epid=1367014951&hash=item3d9f89713c:g:a8QAAOSwJVJeb7ms too ? or just the parcels unit?

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2 minutes ago, Lacathedrale said:

Thanks all - it seems that a single 121 is £120ish, and a dual-motor 101 is £150ish - so probably better off with the latter? Is it all the two-car Bachmann-farish 101's that are dual powered, i.e. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/N-Gauge-Graham-Farish-371-505-Class-101-Two-Car-DMU-BR-Network-Souheast-BNIB/264669589820?epid=1367014951&hash=item3d9f89713c:g:a8QAAOSwJVJeb7ms too ? or just the parcels unit?

 

Only that parcels unit as far as I know. It had two driving motor brakes (DMBS) and so they put in two powered ones! Most Class 101s have a DMBS and a DMS.

 

Class 121 chassis only can be had for just under 80 pounds at DCC supplies: https://www.dccsupplies.com/item-p-114279/n-gauge-121-complete-chassis-2d-009-006.htm.

 

I actually bought a powered Grade 1 used Class 121 for 70 from them.

 

I am thinking of doing the same trick in 4mm and Hattons have 4mm Class 121s at £79.

 

Chris

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2 minutes ago, Chris Higgs said:

 

Only that parcels unit as far as I know. It had two driving motor brakes (DMBS) and so they put in two powered ones! Most Class 101s have a DMBS and a DMS.

 

Class 121 chassis only can be had for just under 80 pounds at DCC supplies: https://www.dccsupplies.com/item-p-114279/n-gauge-121-complete-chassis-2d-009-006.htm.

 

I actually bought a powered Grade 1 used Class 121 for 70 from them.

 

I am thinking of doing the same trick in 4mm and Hattons have 4mm Class 121s at £79.

 

Chris

 

You can tell the one on ebay does not have two powered units are there would be a massive grey block in the passeneger area, but you can see right through!

Edited by Chris Higgs
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1 hour ago, Chris Higgs said:

 

I did get my powered 121 back together eventaully, a lot of faff with all the wiring. In the end I discovered all I needed to do was to pull out the drive shaft from one end - which you can do without taking the body apart! And replace that bogie with one from the dummy unit. Runs better now with only one bogie powered, which is what I have seen reported for the 4mm versions too.

 

The motor is also partially  below the solebar, but is a narrower design and so the underframe detailing looks acceptable as the box to contain the motor is narrower. The bogies on the other hand are horribly wide and if it could be done, would greatly benefit from etched sideframe replacements.

 

Chris

 

 

Does make you wonder whether the motors are just not powerful enough doesn't it? Shades of tiny 7mm coreless in the DJ products. How they expect small motors to cope I don't understand. Not without much higher gear ratios to produce some extra mechanical advantage for the loadings.

 

Do the 121 bogies have pint-point axle current collection as per the 153/156? Would make narrowing the frames more difficult. I'm afraid I don't find PPA collection as/anymore reliable than back wipers, perhaps it's just me. The frames with the American diesel bogies I used in the Class 15 were very over-wide. Luckily they could just be cut off and replaced.

 

Izzy

 

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5 hours ago, Izzy said:

 

Does make you wonder whether the motors are just not powerful enough doesn't it? Shades of tiny 7mm coreless in the DJ products. How they expect small motors to cope I don't understand. Not without much higher gear ratios to produce some extra mechanical advantage for the loadings.

 

Do the 121 bogies have pint-point axle current collection as per the 153/156? Would make narrowing the frames more difficult. I'm afraid I don't find PPA collection as/anymore reliable than back wipers, perhaps it's just me. The frames with the American diesel bogies I used in the Class 15 were very over-wide. Luckily they could just be cut off and replaced.

 

Izzy

 

 

Pin-point collection. No problems with the power on this one, after all it only has to pull itself. I expect all diesels would run smoother if only powering one bogie. They just wouldn't pull as much.

 

Chris

 

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After looking around I just can't bring myself to pay over £120 for a model I'm going to have to cannibalise, and while I have put an eBay notification up for an express-parcels 101, in the meantime I have put a pre-order in for five of the Tomix TM-17 motorised chassis. They have a 90mm bogie centre so aren't perfect but only a couple of mil out for both the 4sub (slightly too wide) and 4epb (slightly too close together) - that's a compromise I think I'm happy to make. It does remain to be seen how the wheels will work eased out, reprofiled or replaced, hopefully I can feed back into this thread with any findings and/or cries for help.

 

This is the specific URL, however you will need to register before adding to your cart and checking out, in order for the ability to complete a pre-order to appear in the checkout stage: https://1999.co.jp/eng/10311069

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10 hours ago, Lacathedrale said:

After looking around I just can't bring myself to pay over £120 for a model I'm going to have to cannibalise, and while I have put an eBay notification up for an express-parcels 101, in the meantime I have put a pre-order in for five of the Tomix TM-17 motorised chassis. They have a 90mm bogie centre so aren't perfect but only a couple of mil out for both the 4sub (slightly too wide) and 4epb (slightly too close together) - that's a compromise I think I'm happy to make. It does remain to be seen how the wheels will work eased out, reprofiled or replaced, hopefully I can feed back into this thread with any findings and/or cries for help.

 

This is the specific URL, however you will need to register before adding to your cart and checking out, in order for the ability to complete a pre-order to appear in the checkout stage: https://1999.co.jp/eng/10311069

 

Gosh... five! That's a vote of confidence.

 

I hopefully have one on the way with completely wrong bogie centres which will need some stretching.

 

Ian Morgan's post on t'other thread reminded me of another thing... I wonder if we will get to pay extra for import taxes and then service charges on top to for the privilege of having said taxes collected from us. I've had that happen before now with an order from the US but it seems pretty random.

Edited by D869
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Well my logic was that if I'm going to be building a layout with third rail electrification, I'm going to need more than one EMU on it. I will have a few attempts to get it right before writing the idea off and while it's possible it will be an abject failure - the whole experiment is the same price as a single Class 121 so in real terms I've not lost much if I'm after 3-4 EMU's total!

 

Hopefully I'll be able to show some pictures of them deconstructed when recieved for the benefit of anyone considering the same. I am half expecting to have to replace the wheels and axles outright - whether that is with association parts or bodging them on my Unimat I don't yet know!

 

Edited by Lacathedrale
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2 hours ago, Lacathedrale said:

Well my logic was that if I'm going to be building a layout with third rail electrification, I'm going to need more than one EMU on it. I will have a few attempts to get it right before writing the idea off and while it's possible it will be an abject failure - the whole experiment is the same price as a single Class 121 so in real terms I've not lost much if I'm after 3-4 EMU's total!

 

Hopefully I'll be able to show some pictures of them deconstructed when recieved for the benefit of anyone considering the same. I am half expecting to have to replace the wheels and axles outright - whether that is with association parts or bodging them on my Unimat I don't yet know!

 

 

How are you building the rest of the EMU(s), William?  Worsley Works etches?

 

Andy

 

 

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In theory yes, I've asked Allan and Worsley and he's said that he's happy to design and produce etches of any MU I can help him with artwork for - so I'm hoping to imitate the results of this wonderful thread: https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/66512-n-gauge-lswr-3-sub/

 

There are alot of assumptions going on - but if I am able to get suitable artwork and Mr. Doherty is able to etch them, it should be a fairly straight-forward process to put together any combination of southern-region suburban MU from what he's got. I have yet to experiment with 3D printing, but I'm reliably informed by @justin1985 that the various odds and ends required on the underframe, cab ends, roof and bogie sides should be fairly easily done. I would be very happy to share any productive result with the association/etc.

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2 hours ago, Lacathedrale said:

Thanks Gareth, but these are the original LSWR units rather than those built from steam hauled stock or built fresh in the late 20's - but I do appreciate the link!

Simon is on these boards and is very amenable to suggestions for new items. I can't believe how quickly he can turn things round!

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On 07/06/2020 at 23:25, Chris Higgs said:

 

Pin-point collection. No problems with the power on this one, after all it only has to pull itself. I expect all diesels would run smoother if only powering one bogie. They just wouldn't pull as much.

 

Chris

 

 

I got some coaches out and the de-powered 121 was happy pushing eight coaches on the straight and level. It would not push them around the Fleischmann train-set curves (9" radius) on my N gauge test track but when I tried pushing said coaches with my finger I could see why - the friction is incrediable. I think I begin to understand why Dapol consider it necessary to have eight wheel drive.

 

As I don't intend to use it in such an environment it is going to be more than adequete for the maximum I have in mind, which is a 4-car Class 115 DMU. 

 

Chris

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Can Dapol bogies be converted to 2mmfs.

 

I have a single car dmu class 121 and have two dummy bogies for it, i've got the missing gear 16t for the princely sum of 60p it just clicks in, so i have one set to run on standard track and would like to know if the wheels can be turned to fine scale as the bogies just pull out and click in so would seem like an easy option.

 

I've taken some pics so hopefully that might help

 

What say you.

 

Thanks,

 

G.

IMG_20200611_202759.jpg

IMG_20200611_202643.jpg

IMG_20200611_202607.jpg

IMG_20200611_202454.jpg

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13 minutes ago, itsthegman said:

Can Dapol bogies be converted to 2mmfs.

 

Hi itsthegman.

 

Dapol wheels can be turned to 2mm finescale standards and the Association  offers a wheel turning service for members.

 

If you have a lathe you turn the wheels down yourself, I should point out I've never done this but the people on here who have.

Some details here (midway down the page), it is for Farish wheels but the approach is the same:-

 

 

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Hi folks. I'm approaching the end of assembling my first ever brass kit, namely the 2fs mineral wagon 1/108 from the association sample pack.  So far so good, until...

 

I've got through the assembly notes for the 4 shoe vac fitted underframe, and hit a solid wall at

20: Bend up and assemble brake lever/lever guard assembly. 

21: Bend door bangers away from sole bar.

22: Attach lever guard assembly 

23: Attach wire stub to Morton clutch.

 

Ok, I'm new to almost everything railway. My questions:

- Where on the etch is the lever/lever guard assembly?

- What should it look like when it's bent up and assembled?

- Where do I attach it, and

- What and where is the Morton clutch?

 

Below is what's left of the etch.

 

Be gentle with me, I'm new to this. Thanks in advance.

 

Richard

 

20200611_214611.jpg

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