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Well I've been looking for a smaller scale after the realisation my attic wouldn't be a good place for a railway. My original idea was for TT but being reliant on cottage industry entirely has come back to bite me: not a single one of the kits I wanted to start with is available.

 

With that in mind and my history in American N and desire for Railway as opposed to diorama, it seems a no-brainer to try 2mmFS specifically because I can rewheel the Dapol RTR stuff (in this case I'm thinking initially of class 33, 73, 37 and various sectorisation/NSE bits). Right?

 

My only question for now is, what is the suggested minimum radius for visible sections, and absolute minimum (let's assume a Co-Co bogie for these purposes) for return loops? I'm thinking of two visible sections with a non-modelled return loop at either end and a 90 degree bend in the middle (to fit around two walls in my shed)

I would suggest trying one of the suitable Farish locos with the drop in wheels (class 24 perhaps and DCC ready) it will be  a quick and easy conversion and be perfect for track testing etc and fully reversible unlike turning wheels down

 

NIck

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I would suggest trying one of the suitable Farish locos with the drop in wheels (class 24 perhaps and DCC ready) it will be  a quick and easy conversion and be perfect for track testing etc and fully reversible unlike turning wheels down

 

NIck

Hi Nick, a 24 is a bit out of my wheelhouse but a 37 would be fabulous. I'm really keen on DCC sound so I guess I can use a cheap plug in decoder with the drop in wheelsets first and then if it sticks go further with a sound decoder and milling the chassis for a speaker.

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Hi Nick, a 24 is a bit out of my wheelhouse but a 37 would be fabulous. I'm really keen on DCC sound so I guess I can use a cheap plug in decoder with the drop in wheelsets first and then if it sticks go further with a sound decoder and milling the chassis for a speaker.

Check Petes post  http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blog/944/entry-18480-374-and-241-sound-vision/  on converting a class 37  ( nothing to do with me  :laugh: ) 

 

NIck

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Lovely! That video is what inspired me to take another look at N gauge sound (having dealt with rather lacklustre US products) , specifically the start up! 

 

I'm torn - I want a mainline station so badly, but I really don't think I can 'give away' so much space to reversing loops :(

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Depends what you want to run. I would suggest 24" (600mm) for visible sections and 18" (450mm) for hidden sections. Steam locos may well object to that, but diesels could be OK. But the best way might be to do a test.

 

It is also possible to follow the real thing and put a continuous checkrail on sharp curves. I have a P4 layout where that had to be resorted to.

 

Chris

 

Modeller "Izzy" who posts here from time to time uses much tighter curves with bogie diesel stock, nearer to 1ft radius.  But, Izzy is experienced in all sorts of finescale standards and knows how his stock will react to the curves.   The problem with tighter curves is a mixture of loco flexibility (worse on steam, better on 4 wheels per bogie diesel), and consistent stock overhang for the couplings and buffers to roughly line up.  The transition into a tight curve needs to be thought about (straight, then really tight curve, might not be the best option).

 

So, experiments might show that a specific model could work with tighter curves.  

 

 

Understood. I guess with an 8'6" square shed, that means I'm down to >7' for visible sections with that 90' bend, and even less than 6' if I want a continuous run. Thank you!

 

 

 

With an 8'6 square shed, one could have a circular layout with a ruling curve of 4' radius.     Don't necessarily think in straight lines, curves can be useful ! 

 

 

 

On component stock, please have sensible expectations.   The Association is volunteers who hand-assemble products for the shop.   So, PCB sleepers are chopped by someone feeding material into a semi-automated chopping machine (which requires careful setup, sharpening, checking as it goes along, etc), wagon wheels is a multi-step assembly process pushing parts together with high accuracy, even "simple" moulded products have to be "de-stringed" of all the plastic strands when they come from a moulder and bagged up.    All done by a fairly small number of volunteers who have other things in their lives.  And in many cases its the same volunteer who is doing multiple products, so increasing the priority for one will mean a delay in another.

 

 

- Nigel

( Webmaster, wagon wheel assembler, and other jobs ).

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Modeller "Izzy" who posts here from time to time uses much tighter curves with bogie diesel stock, nearer to 1ft radius.  But, Izzy is experienced in all sorts of finescale standards and knows how his stock will react to the curves.   The problem with tighter curves is a mixture of loco flexibility (worse on steam, better on 4 wheels per bogie diesel), and consistent stock overhang for the couplings and buffers to roughly line up.  The transition into a tight curve needs to be thought about (straight, then really tight curve, might not be the best option).

 

So, experiments might show that a specific model could work with tighter curves.  

 

 

With an 8'6 square shed, one could have a circular layout with a ruling curve of 4' radius.     Don't necessarily think in straight lines, curves can be useful ! 

 

 

 

On component stock, please have sensible expectations.   The Association is volunteers who hand-assemble products for the shop.   So, PCB sleepers are chopped by someone feeding material into a semi-automated chopping machine (which requires careful setup, sharpening, checking as it goes along, etc), wagon wheels is a multi-step assembly process pushing parts together with high accuracy, even "simple" moulded products have to be "de-stringed" of all the plastic strands when they come from a moulder and bagged up.    All done by a fairly small number of volunteers who have other things in their lives.  And in many cases its the same volunteer who is doing multiple products, so increasing the priority for one will mean a delay in another.

 

 

- Nigel

( Webmaster, wagon wheel assembler, and other jobs ).

 

Many thanks sir, we had a brief chat on email (William) - I fully understand the nature of the society and shop, and am happy to support (and hopefully as time goes by, contribute into). What I didn't want to do was figuratively act like a kid in a sweet shop only to see almost all the jars are infact empty. That doesn't appear to be the case at all, and I am heartened by the forthrightness of the entire group thus demonstrated here and ready to jump in with both feet.

 

 

You might be surprised just what can be fitted inside a shed:

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/98901-this-is-euston/?p=2865106

Reading with interest.

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To follow up on Nigel’s remarks re diesels and minimum radius, as he says I have used down to 12” in places. However, this is only in hidden areas, and as many others would also suggest aiming for as large as possible is always best and using transition curves between the min/max radius used is something I would advise to avoid not only how stock runs, but also how it all looks. Other factors are avoiding having any completely straight track - where the layout is circular in nature - and keeping the point work radius to a minimum of about 18” on the inside radius of points, and certainly nothing under 15” as an absolute minimum.

There are other tricks that can be used, such as reversing the ‘ handing’ of point blades to assist with travel through pointwork, but this much depends on the particular nature of the track layout. If you want any more advice the just ask. Can’t promise a quick reply as I am in Sydney for a few months over Xmas/New Year on Grandparent duties and the out of sync nature with UK time takes getting used to.

Izzy

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Understood - if it really is possible for Bo-Bo diesels to go around a 12" radius with some gauge widening and/or check rails then this really does introduce some compelling other options for layout plans.  I think I need to make a definitive choice as to whether I want the layout to be portable or exhibit-able. I've never tried the latter and fancy giving it a shot at least once; so  I think that rules out a continuous 4' radius loop in the shed at least at first, but it (that is, exhibiting) may never materialise at which point it could become a much more realistic proposition. This is broadly what I'm thinking (at least, the right hand model): 

https://i.imgur.com/A4LaGOS.png

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I have had no issues with Co-Co's such as 37/47/66 as well as Bo-Bo's, but something like 40/44/45/46 with their longer wheelbase bogies might prove problematic. I would suggest that using DG's with such tight radius needs to be considered as their design has advantages over other types in allowing coupling on curves and set correctly prevents buffer locking of stock. This is particularly needed with the more modern longer wheelbase carriage and wagons.

 

Izzy

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33, 73, 37 and 47 are really the only motive power I'm considering for this embryonic layout idea at the moment so that's fine. I'll check out DG Couplers but I was considering Kadees. If an 18" radius curve is not a big deal (and 12" is possible with aforementioned compromises) then I'm happy both ways.

 

Is there anything I should know ahead of ordering my first bundle of stuff from the society beyond the Track book? For now I was thinking of a small pack of Easitrac wooden sleeper base, lengths of bullhead rail and a easitrac B6 turnout 'kit' as well as roller gauges. I can't remember perfectly but I think I made the jigs when I did this in 7mm and 4mm, is that fine in 2mm too?

 

I also wanted to get least one wagon, so I was looking at the BR Sealion ballast wagon, to go along with a prospective Dutch 37. The instructions do not specify that wheels are included, (only that Kadee bogies are supplied) - what's the lowdown (link: http://www.2mm.org.uk/products/instruction_sheets/pdf2-504.pdf)please?

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Understood - if it really is possible for Bo-Bo diesels to go around a 12" radius with some gauge widening and/or check rails then this really does introduce some compelling other options for layout plans.  I think I need to make a definitive choice as to whether I want the layout to be portable or exhibit-able. I've never tried the latter and fancy giving it a shot at least once; so  I think that rules out a continuous 4' radius loop in the shed at least at first, but it (that is, exhibiting) may never materialise at which point it could become a much more realistic proposition. This is broadly what I'm thinking (at least, the right hand model): 

https://i.imgur.com/A4LaGOS.png

 

Bear in mind that if you are going to employ gauge widening then the Easitrac will not easily accomodate that. If anything the gauge narrows when flexible track is curved. So start thinking about copper-clad sleepered track for such areas. The checkrail will also be easier to add to soldered track.

 

Chris

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I also wanted to get least one wagon, so I was looking at the BR Sealion ballast wagon, to go along with a prospective Dutch 37. The instructions do not specify that wheels are included, (only that Kadee bogies are supplied) - what's the lowdown (link: http://www.2mm.org.uk/products/instruction_sheets/pdf2-504.pdf)please?

 

That wouldn't be my first choice of kit in 2mm scale.   Reasons - its not that well thought out as kits go, its an old design, and if you read the instructions, the N Gauge Society who produced it didn't expect the etched parts to assemble into a bogie, and thought it could be glued together.  (err, glue ? and etch ?  surely that should be solder, but the N Gauge Society members probably have an aversion to solder ).    The photo on the website even suggests its etched in brass, which isn't the usually accepted best option for 2mm work, Nickel Silver is better.   I suspect that as supplied to the 2mm shop, its just the etch, so you'd have to source the bogies elsewhere (the information page on the 2mm site gives bogie suggestions).   I guess that from the N Gauge Society, it comes with Kadee bogies which are "nearest size we could find" to anything remotely accurate. 

 

So, properly designed alternative ?    See http://www.2mm.org.uk/small_suppliers/stephenharris/index.htm  and scroll down to where Stephen Harris offers a Sealion.   That will be a properly designed etched kit, which, will make up to a superb model.    But he says "outline instructions only", so I suggest you try something else of Stephen's designs first to get familiar with the way he thinks about assembly. 

 

 

 

- Nigel

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That wouldn't be my first choice of kit in 2mm scale.   Reasons - its not that well thought out as kits go, its an old design, and if you read the instructions, the N Gauge Society who produced it didn't expect the etched parts to assemble into a bogie, and thought it could be glued together.  (err, glue ? and etch ?  surely that should be solder, but the N Gauge Society members probably have an aversion to solder ).    The photo on the website even suggests its etched in brass, which isn't the usually accepted best option for 2mm work, Nickel Silver is better.   I suspect that as supplied to the 2mm shop, its just the etch, so you'd have to source the bogies elsewhere (the information page on the 2mm site gives bogie suggestions).   I guess that from the N Gauge Society, it comes with Kadee bogies which are "nearest size we could find" to anything remotely accurate. 

 

So, properly designed alternative ?    See http://www.2mm.org.uk/small_suppliers/stephenharris/index.htm  and scroll down to where Stephen Harris offers a Sealion.   That will be a properly designed etched kit, which, will make up to a superb model.    But he says "outline instructions only", so I suggest you try something else of Stephen's designs first to get familiar with the way he thinks about assembly. 

 

 

 

- Nigel

 

I am guessing that the Farish Sealion is different from the kits?

 

https://hattonsimages.blob.core.windows.net/products/377-000_1.jpg

 

Chris

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Good shout - I was planning on using aluminium angle for my staging tracks so plain rail on pcb sleepers seems very reasonable. I'm in awe of the Copenhagen fields curved metal sections, might be a bit OTT for my purposes.

 

Will I need to use PCB sleepers in the easitrac turnout kit for electrical bonding or is that just gravy?

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Is there anything I should know ahead of ordering my first bundle of stuff from the society beyond the Track book? For now I was thinking of a small pack of Easitrac wooden sleeper base, lengths of bullhead rail and a easitrac B6 turnout 'kit' as well as roller gauges. I can't remember perfectly but I think I made the jigs when I did this in 7mm and 4mm, is that fine in 2mm too?

 

The Track book explains how to make all the jigs you need. I had never made track in any gauge, but have made a crossover, single slip and curved point, all from "cutting and shutting" the association printed plans following the guidance of the book.

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That wouldn't be my first choice of kit in 2mm scale.   Reasons - its not that well thought out as kits go, its an old design, and if you read the instructions, the N Gauge Society who produced it didn't expect the etched parts to assemble into a bogie, and thought it could be glued together.  (err, glue ? and etch ?  surely that should be solder, but the N Gauge Society members probably have an aversion to solder ).    The photo on the website even suggests its etched in brass, which isn't the usually accepted best option for 2mm work, Nickel Silver is better.   I suspect that as supplied to the 2mm shop, its just the etch, so you'd have to source the bogies elsewhere (the information page on the 2mm site gives bogie suggestions).   I guess that from the N Gauge Society, it comes with Kadee bogies which are "nearest size we could find" to anything remotely accurate. 

 

So, properly designed alternative ?    See http://www.2mm.org.uk/small_suppliers/stephenharris/index.htm  and scroll down to where Stephen Harris offers a Sealion.   That will be a properly designed etched kit, which, will make up to a superb model.    But he says "outline instructions only", so I suggest you try something else of Stephen's designs first to get familiar with the way he thinks about assembly. 

 

 

 

- Nigel

  

I am guessing that the Farish Sealion is different from the kits?

 

https://hattonsimages.blob.core.windows.net/products/377-000_1.jpg

 

Chris

Thank you both! Honestly I'm less fussed about a specific, was just hoping to get something you might see on an engineer's train in the late 80's - I'll check out those Harris kits but was hoping to get a small bundle in one swoop from the society. Maybe a couple of grampus?

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There has been much mention of gauge widening for the tight radius curves, but checking out your layout diagram, it appears you intend to have double track round the tight bends. For the scenic sections, you will probably want an accurate '6 foot way' separation of the tracks, as it does look so much better than the N gauge norm. However, on the bendy bits, you will need a much larger separation to avoid long carriages travelling in opposite directions from hitting each other, as the overhang and underhang can be quite considerable on tight curves. You may need to experiment to find the safe separation distance required. It is very hard to retrospectively modify a layout to avoid such collisions.

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Understood, thank you both.

 

I promise my last question before I put scalpel and soldering iron in anger - I can't help but think a tiny test plank might be a good show before I start this magnum opus - and it would appear that there's a Diamond Jubilee Challenge of 600mm x 240mm - but I can't find any more information other than that. These two ends of the stick seem like they could be made for each other. Where can I find out more, please?

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There will be a reminder of details for the DJLC in the next 2mm Newsletter (due at the end of January) but you've reminded me that i need to get details to our webmaster to go onto the 2mm website. In the meantime i'll send you some information tomorrow.

 

Andy

(Association chairman)

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Thank you both! Honestly I'm less fussed about a specific, was just hoping to get something you might see on an engineer's train in the late 80's - I'll check out those Harris kits but was hoping to get a small bundle in one swoop from the society. Maybe a couple of grampus?

A grampus would be a good start to 2mm kits - the body mouldings are good quality and the etched chassis fairly simple. You'll need separate axleboxes/springs though as that chassis doesn't have them as part of the etch.

 

If you've already got a bit of experience of soldering small kits and bits, the Mermaid wagons (2-700 in the shop 2 list) are really nice kits to build, if a little bit fiddly at times.

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If you've already got a bit of experience of soldering small kits and bits, the Mermaid wagons (2-700 in the shop 2 list) are really nice kits to build, if a little bit fiddly at times.

 

I really would start with some simple stuff, especially as you are having to approach all aspects of 2mm modelling from scratch at once. If you really want to do an etched kit, choose one of Stephen Harris's more basic ones, for example one of his 21T mineral wagons.

 

Chris

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Hello and Happy New Year to all!

 

I have tried to subscribe to the "2mmNn3" Yahoo! Group by emailing the owner a week ago but no reply yet. I can see there has been no activity for over four years and I was wondering if anyone here can advise if the group is no longer maintained (I was most interested to see the photo albums).

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