Smethwick West in the 1980s

[dave_long]

Please note that the original idea for my layout challenge has now changed.

I'll leave what has been said about the cement works for now as this thread is supposed to be a record of our challenge entry.

Please see the latest entry for more info on the reasons and the new idea.

Thanks!

Link to start of Smethwick West challenge layout posts:

? 

Smethwick West 1st post

Right well here goes. I thought I'd add my thread to the forum for the challenge before someone else jumps in before me. I see there's a N gauge Cement works entry on the forum. But I'll be building mine in 4mm to P4 gauge.

 

? ? ? ? My Criteria:

 

? ? ? ? 4mm/P4 (my first full P4 layout)

? ? ? ? Set in the early 1980s

? ? ? ? A Cement works layout

? ? ? ? A layout set in the scenery

? ? ? ? Distinctly different from Chris Nevards Cement Quay layout (not all that easy in the size limit!)

? ? ? ? Use of the 51L PCA tank kits Blue circle version

?  ? ?  Have a layout that can be used to take photos on

Create a layout that can be extended at a later date if required

A plan created in Templot

Industrial shunter/s

Standard BR stock from the correct time period

Prototype details to follow:

 

Kind regards

[dave_long]

Prototype:

Right the initial design plans for this layout concept are based around two prototype locations but have no real bearing on the final track layout just more of an inspiration to the model. These two locations are Hope cement works in the Peak district and Ketton Cement works near Stamford in Lincolnshire.? 



 

The model will however be Peak district based, but may well use one main feature of the Ketton site. The 3 tower set of loading Silos at Ketton would/will make probably the main centerpiece of the layout.? 

 

Image seen here of the loading silos: class 08 through loading silos

 

However I prefer the location and buildings on the Hope cement works in the Peak district, with its large coal store and conveyor system:? Coal sidings and conveyor

 

Interesting pieces of detail that would look great on a model of the site :? passage way detailing and pipework

 

Great towering buildings and the unloading areas:? loading buildings

 

I could post lots more images and may well do over the coming months. But for now try either Hope cement or Ketton in fotopic and you'll get lots of images.

 

Its going to be difficult to fit in the detail in such an small area but hopefully I can come up with a plan worthy of these 2 locations and worthy of a decent model layout. Although there is a large temptation to use a lot of HO kits which I'm sure I'll try I'm hoping a lot can be scratch built, after all I'll cover most things with corrugated plasticard so I'm sure it won't be too difficult.? 

 

The Hope site also lends itself well to the surrounding countryside which I will hopefully utilise around the edges of the baseboards. At the end of the coal sidings for example is a cliff face, luckily different to that that Chris Nevard has used so well on Cement Quay. Which I'm trying so hard not to replicate or copy.

The Layout

Right with a little prototyping out of the way of which I'll add more over time. This brings me to my name debate. It started off so clear in my mind as they usually do before doubt sets in. The first name that I arrived at was ? 'HOPEfully? WORKS' which was obviously a link to Hope cement works but a play on words for a first succesful P4 layout. However then the doubt set in and thoughts of being silly came to mind, and then 'Cement Peak' came to mind with the layout being set in the Peak district. Well thats where I'm at at the moment. Any comments on the names would be more than welcome.

Baseboards wise, I'm at a quandry again now. PMP has sent me over a few Iain Rice drawings to look over. Also finding out the correct rules regarding the use of fiddleyards in relation to the 2010sq In allowance has given some extra room, however I'm not particularly keen on having a long narrow layout, I think that a size around 5-6' long mark seems acceptable with around 2' depth. Having short trains is where I can use the Ketton example to help with my story for the layout. The Ketton shunters bring only a handful of wagons up from the exchange sidings at a time becuase of a fairly steep gradient. The gradient part can be used in my example but obviously with proper exchange sidings BR stock would rarely venture off BR rails, but hey its my layout.

Right this update I'll leave there for the moment while I go and have another think.? ? ? 

Thanks for reading? 

Dave

[MRDBLUE17]

Hi Dave,

 

A cement works will be interesting - I like your idea of using some industrial shunters and when I last went past Oxwellmains Lafarge site near Dunbar I noticed they have 2 new shunters that look to be similiar to Judith Edge kits Hunslet 403 HP machines finished in Lafarge white, green etc. There is also the freightliner wagon works to the south end of the site which would make quite a good feature on a model, with spare wheelsets lying about. Look forward to seeing this one take shape.

 

Mark

[dave_long]

Hi Dave,

 

A cement works will be interesting - I like your idea of using some industrial shunters and when I last went past Oxwellmains Lafarge site near Dunbar I noticed they have 2 new shunters that look to be similiar to Judith Edge kits Hunslet 403 HP machines finished in Lafarge white, green etc. There is also the freightliner wagon works to the south end of the site which would make quite a good feature on a model, with spare wheelsets lying about. Look forward to seeing this one take shape.

 

Mark

 

Hi Mark

 

 

Thanks for the info. At the Hope works they've worked there way through quite a number of different industrial shunters. The industrial shunter shall be my little bit towards the 5th Anniversary gimmic also.

 

Sentinel : Sentinel? 

 

laura H-B 060

 

Harry needles 060? HN060

 

And the one that might give away from 5th Anniversary gimmic No5 in Lafarge colour? 

 

 

 

 

 

[Arthur]

Hi Dave,

 

I couldn't reply on the thread itself but elsewhere you asked about Walthers Cement Kits. ? If it's of any use these two U.S. ? based ebay suppliers have;

 

the Medusa Cement kit ? 

 

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Walthers-Cornerstone-HO-3019-Medusa-Cement-Company_W0QQitemZ380179018221QQcmdZViewItemQQptZModel_RR_Trains?hash=item58846f71ed

 

 

 

and the conveyors

 

http://stores.shop.e...c0Q2em14?_pgn=1

 

I've used both companies myself with complete satisfaction.

 

Arthur

[dave_long]

Thanks for the links Arthur,

 

I had looked through some of ebay.com but must ? have missed them. I hoping to find a full valley cement kit ( I think I have) but i'll need some more conveyors so thanks.

 

 

 

 

Going back to industrial shunters the Ketton site had a number of Fowler 0-4-0DHs of which 2 were returned to Fowler as early as 1967, the first being built in 1937 and lasting to 71. The last fowler there went in 97 and one preserved in 93. They also had a number of Thomas Hill 0-6-0s too.

 

Plenty of choice then I'd say.

 

 

[James Hilton]

This sounds great and glad I'm not the only one trying P4!

[0O00]

I like the sound of this one Dave. Good luck.

 

Must admit that if I went in for this challenge I would have gone cement orientated but in OO instead (comfort zone etc)

 

Cheers

[dave_long]

I like the sound of this one Dave. Good luck. Must admit that if I went in for this challenge I would have gone cement orientated but in OO instead (comfort zone etc) Cheers

Thanks Alex I tell you with the size limits inforce it's so hard to get something that doesn't scream Cement Quay at you, at the moment its my biggest problem, ok I can obviously leave out the quay/water but the layout and buildings are giving me a hard time. The other issues with making it P4 is having longer pointwork which also hinders the space. Current thinking is short and deep layout or a long and thin layout. If I went for a long and thin layout It'd end up along the lines of Westbury. Whereas a short and deep layout will be completely ficticious as it'd be too short (with P4 turnouts) to be prototypical.  A few Hornby weathered depressed PCA tanks arrived yesterday too, and they look quite nice R6446 PCA They'll need renumbering ofcourse but the detail is very good. There's also plenty of space between the axleboxes so I'm going to set 1 up with P4 wheels, in new bearings but no springing/compensation and see how it performs before making a decision on suspension. But I'm between nights now and should get some hard work done on this. Fingers crossed!

[Guest jim s-w]

Hi Dave

 

um... Curzon Street? No reason!

 

Cheers

 

Jim

[dave_long]

Curzon St Cement is even less documented/photographed than Queens sdgs Handsworth is. There's 1 decent (well sort of) image on fotopic. From what I can remember it was well spread out but extremely modelable as is most parts in the area!

 

 

 

 

 

[ajdown]

Just a thought, as I've noticed you've mentioned several times that you aren't trying to reproduce "Chris Nevards Cement Quay".

 

Even if you exactly tried to reproduce the trackplan, the quay, the buildings in the same spots etc etc, it wouldn't be "Cement Quay" - it might look similar but there would still be differences as you've put your own touch (and skills) into it making subtle but obvious differences to Cement Quay.

 

Look how many "Minories" layouts there are out there, using the same concept but in slightly different scenic locations and arrangements - yet people still keep building them. Same for "Great Western branchline terminii".

 

I think many of us do a disservice to ourselves by trying to make a layout "not like" something similar that it actually is like, generally, concept-wise - after all there are only so many different permutations available when it comes to building a layout.

 

Good luck with your project. I look forward to seeing how it develops. As someone who's shyed away from "dabbling in finescale" for the project, I'm watching them all to see if it really is as difficult as I think it would be - using Peco code 75 is about as finescale as I get! In fact, part of my "personal challenge" is to try and find ready-made items such as Skaledale buildings but with as little work as possible turn them from "train set" items to "model railway" items.

[dave_long]

Thanks for the advice aj. I guess it is one of those things, where its me rather than what others may think. Its one of the reasons I try so hard to find a prototype for all my layouts but in a layout with these size limits thats just not practical. I wouldn't be able to recreate Chris's track plan in P4 as I'd end up with radii to sharp for P4 stock/couplings.

 

Well it wouldn't be a challenge would it without these issues! back to the drawing board.

 

Dave

[dave_long]

Time for an update.

 

Finally plans are moving in the right direction. I'm on the brink of being happy with a track plan, which'll be posted once I've completely settled on it. Although its looking semi finished there is still an issue over turnouts across BB joints to sort, but I have a few ideas that I'm looking at currently, so things are heading in the right direction.

 

There will be a siding for coal traffic to be brought into the works and unloaded and conveyod away towards the main works facilities. There may well be 2 of these coal dump/conveyors sets. They will take the shape of these coal shutes at Westbury: Westbury cement works coal shute

 

There will be at the moment 2 sidings that will have overhead cement loading silos to load the PCA wagons, I may use the Skaledale cement silos or they maybe slightly different. There is also due to be an open platform loading area, but this wont be used too much at the works, but is available for loading the closed box vans VGA/VDAs etc. There will also be a third seperate cement loading facility alongside one of the buildings, similar to one at Hope cement works with a semi covered roof, but more of that later. The main cement wagons will be PCAs it will be possible to fit in 1 maybe 2 PDA wagons (the twin pca tanks on a bogie wagon) The Hornby PDA isn't bad a few alterations at it can be turned into a nice model. The Bachmann presflo will form a healthy part of the layout stock when its finally released.

 

Thanks for reading.

 

 

Dave

[James Hilton]

This is sounding really really nice Dave I look forward to seeing some plans.

[dave_long]

Sorry to those of you who've been following my original ideas regarding the cement works for the 2010 challenge. I've had time to reflect and evaluate what I had proposed. Also. This blog entry from Jim SW brought me back down to earth again.? JSW blog "why model a real place?" To be honest I find my self agreeing totally and I knew that really before Jims post, probably why the only layout I've ever built was a prototype (ala Pensnett) The main thing for me is although others may not agree (as tends to be the case) I feel as though my imagination alone is not good enough to create a layout as good as I'm expecting myself to produce.

 

Anyway I could get bogged down in this. I've moved attention therefore to a real place that fits the bill. Smethwick West a small unloved now closed station on the Stourbridge to Birmingham line. I've got a plan that will fit the 2010 inchs just and although it may look quite a simple layout there are quite a number of interesting movements that took place there. Before The line to Snow Hill was reopened in the mid 90s the now single line following the former line to snow hill had 2 uses. The rather imposing Cement terminal at Handsworth and a decent sized scrap yard with rail connection. However the junction at Smethwick as you'll notice from my notes and photos didn't have access to the up mainline. So when a train returned from the scrapyard or cement terminal it had to run wrong road to Langley green rood end goods sidings where the loco would then run round the train and pull it back through smethwick junction on to the electrified mainline for northbound or bescott bound trains or would use the crossover at rood end to run right road for southbound routes through worcester and on southwards. Obviously a similar story to would occur for trains running into the cement terminal and scrap yard that routed in from the north, they would head past the junction and on to rood end and run round its wagons and then head back to the junction taking the left towards Handsworth.

 

Then there is the mundane DMU operations of the busy commutter line running from worcester, via kidderminster and Stourbridge or the trains that terminated at those stops. These were the classic blue and grey or all blue units, class 117,116,115,101 then later in life the 150s and 155s were used on the line before the problems with the doors.? 

 

Then there is the freight traffic bound for rood end sidings themselves ie BIC plastics and the oldbury line than ran to Albright and Wilsons and the ICI loading facility.? 

 

Although it won't be possible to simulate during the challenge time frame (due to fiddle yard contraints) but there were plenty of diversion and other specials that ran along the line, a number of HSTs would squeel around the smethwick junc curves usually on a Sunday avoiding works elsewehere.

 

 

This rather simple looking track layout does then yield quite a lot of good potential movements, and it also provokes good memories for me as thats the route my father and I always took on our way into New st when we lived in Stourbridge and then Kidderminster plus my mother worked at the local primary school just a few hundred yards back down the line. The nice green surroundings and embankments will also lend themselves very well for somewhere to take photos, after being inspired by the photos and boards Sandhills has built over the past few months has also given my old interest in photography a kick, with a new camera on the way for Christmas I just need somewhere to photograph my stock and this will make a perfect back drop I reckon.

 

I'm hoping that your starting to see my thinking behind my change of plan and that this new plan will not be too taxing on my modelling skills but will encompass all the things I'm looking to have at this moment in time and shouldn't take up too much cash or too much time.

This last thing being key for me now as I now have an even closer deadline than some of you who've entered the competition. There will at some point in the early part of June next year be a little dave_long on the way!!? ? ? :icon_biggrin:

 

 

I've currently got a thread going in the help section for more information on Smethwick West and the junction specifically now the footbridge, which is proving very difficult to find photos of due to the fact that a lot of photos were taken from that bridge hence it not being in shot.

 

The Help thread can be found here please have a look through :? Help thread Smethwick west and junction

 

 

Thanks for spending the time reading all my waffle, and I hope to have some encouraging news on the start of the layout very soon.

 

Kind regards

[Ramblin Rich]

Oooohhh - very interesting, quuite close to my old stamping grounds! I always thought Langley Green would make a good model, never thought of Smethwick West but as you say there were some unusual workings.

 

Just one quibble -

 

Then there is the freight traffic bound for rood end sidings themselves ie BIC plastics and the oldbury line than ran to Albright and Wilsons and the ICI loading facility.

 

 

It's actually BIP - I think it was British Industrial Plastics, now part of Synthite UK. My brother has worked there since the late 80s, I asked him way back about rail traffic & he had no recollection of traffic to BIP after he started, but did remember the Albright & Wilson tanks going up the Oldbury branch. He always said that with BIP, Albrights & ICI alongside each other if there was ever an incident at one place there woould probably end up with a large smoking crater where Olbury used to be....*

I'm sorry I can't add anything more useful, but I'd be very interested in seeing the outcome! Best of luck with this

 

* Some say that might not be a bad thing.....

[dave_long]

Hi Rich

 

Yes your quite right it was BIP not BIC. I've always thought that langley would make a great layout but you'd need a lot of space to make a decent attempt I reckon.

 

Regarding all the industries in that little area, my Mum worked at a primary school next to the plastics works and they actually had evacuation drills incase something went bang. There was the big tyre dump that caught fire there sometime in 93 or 94 I think, which closed the school and may have had the plastics works evacuated too but not sure. The whole area stank of burnt rubber for months.? 

 

There's a photo taken by Mike H of this parish of a few wagons being shunted into the plastics sidings its on fotopic but its running slow today I'll get the link up later.

 

 

[wollastonblue]

Will watch this one Dave. My nan worked at Smethwick West and Langley Green during the war, a bit before the era you're modelling but if I can glean any info out of her I will.

[dave_long]

Finally gettin fotopic loaded here's the link to Mike H's photo of a target 48 working the BIP sidings in 1986:? Target 48 in the BIP

 

 

 

 

 

[Clearwater]

I think it was smethwick west that had a rather nice gwr style signal box.