London Underground History

[DIW]

A thread from RMweb 3 about old pictures eventually became a dissertation on Metropolitan Railway axle box covers. It's more interesting than I make it sound, honest!

[Bartb]

When was the Elephant and Castle underground Station (Bakerloo line) Built ?

[Matloughe]

Elephant and Castle (Bakerloo) was opened in 1906 and is currently the only surviving example of a near original Yerkes style tube terminus still carrying out its original function. The actual construction of the station finished at some point during 1905 from what I can tell. However the City & South London (Northern/Misery Line) Side of the station has been open since 1890.

 

Hope that Helps.

~ Gary

[Bartb]

Thank you Gary. As most of the Elephant and Castle has been re-developed over the years, it's nice to see the old station has not been touched. I believe it is a listed building.

[Xerces Fobe2]

For in depth information on the London Underground System the District Dave Forum is a very useful resource

 

XF

[Horsetan]

Here is a bit more about Johnson Sans, the typeface used on the London Underground and indeed by London Transport.

[rogerzilla]

My favourite urban legend about the Underground is that the Central Line stock is smaller because someone forgot to allow for the height of the rails when specifying the tunnels

[roythebus]

No, the Central originally had centre third electrification. when it was converted to standard 4-rail, the outside rail had to be placed slightly higher up because of the smaller tunnel diameter.

[russ p]

No, the Central originally had centre third electrification. when it was converted to standard 4-rail, the outside rail had to be placed slightly higher up because of the smaller tunnel diameter.

Does that mean that central line stock can't run on any other lines and vissa versa ?

I've seen battery loco's at Stratford so presumably they come from Lillie bridge?

[Gwiwer]

1959 and 1962 stocks were theoretically interchangeable.  The former ran on the Piccadilly and later the Northern Line while the latter ran on the Central Line.  However some units of 1962 stock later migrated to the Northern Line and the Aldwych shuttle on the Piccadilly Line was home to the single 3-car unit of 1962 stock for some years.  Prior to that the "Standard" tube stock of 1923-35 origin also operated on the Piccadilly and Central Lines though might again have been two distinct fleets.

 

I too understand that the outer live rail on the Central Line was placed higher than standard but have also heard it said that this was due to the smaller bore of the early tunnels which is less than the standard 12' diameter (11' 9" rings a distant bell) meaning there wasn't quite space for the outer rail at the normal height.

 

However given the inter-operability of 1959/62 stocks (and indeed the Piccadilly then Northern Line's 1956 stock) were they fitted with shoes which had sufficient compensation, were the shoes adjusted when they changed lines or was there in fact no difference in conductor rail height at all?

 

Battery locos at Stratford LT may have come by one of several routes.  If they had come direct via the Central Line then either their shoes were compensated, they ran on battery power or there was no difference in rail height.  They could also (depending upon year) have come via the BR link at Leyton (the former LNER Stratford - Ongar line) on battery power and might have used the former BR - LT connection at East Ham to run from Lille Bridge via the District Line then BR metals back to Gas Factory Junction and then the BR link from LT&S to GE routes at Bow.  Or they could have run on to Barking and then back-tracked to Stratford BR via Woodgrange Park and thence through the yard at Leyton onto LT metals.  Although LT battery locos were passed over some BR routes such as the City Widened lines and Kings Cross - Finsbury Park via the BR tunnels I believe the Central Line option to have been far more likely.

[russ p]

Thanks for that, these battery loco's were only a couple of years ago so must have come via the central line.

I was changing ends at Stratford in the middle of the night and a pair passed through on the central line top and tailing a ballast train . I didn't notice what the shoe gear was doing

[Gwiwer]

I was caught a little by surprise late one night when an engineer's train trundled through Tottenham Court Road on the eastbound Central Line between penultimate and last passenger services.  But not as surprised as the young lass standing close by who yelled at the top of her East End accented voice "See - they DO 'av goods trains on the tyooob!!!"

[Grovenor]

 

I too understand that the outer live rail on the Central Line was placed higher than standard but have also heard it said that this was due to the smaller bore of the early tunnels which is less than the standard 12' diameter (11' 9" rings a distant bell) meaning there wasn't quite space for the outer rail at the normal height.

It has to do with the shape (not quite round) that the Central Line tunnels ended up when enlarged, special positive rails are used 1.5 inches higher than standard. This only affects the section from White City to Liverpool St. the rest of the line is standard.

Regards

[russ p]

So do central line trains have specific shoe gear or can normal gear cope with an increase in height?

[PhilJ W]

Does that mean that central line stock can't run on any other lines and vissa versa ?

I've seen battery loco's at Stratford so presumably they come from Lillie bridge?

 

 

So do central line trains have specific shoe gear or can normal gear cope with an increase in height?

There was an incident where the preserved 1960 Cravens tube stock when it was being transfered from an event on the Epping-Ongar railway was damaged when its shoegear, which should have been tied up clear of the current rail collided with the current rail. The stock was being transfered between two battery locomotives at the time. The accident also damaged the current rail and caused disruption to the service.

[Dan Hamblin]

92TS is fitted with 'high lift' type shoe gear, basically it rises higher than standard shoe gear on other tube gauge stocks. Battery Locos have a much older design that can be best described as a flexible radial type of shoe gear - basically the radial type as used on non-Central Line compliant tube stocks, but with the shoe capable of pivotting on the end of the arm, it doesn't always mean the shoe sits flat on the high positive rail. Modern high lift shoe gear uses parallel links with a spring to force the shoe onto the conductor rail, the face always running parallel on top of the rail for good electrical contact.

 

Amazing what you find out when trying to make a 72TS engineering train capable of working on the Central Line!

 

Regards,

 

Dan

[Gwiwer]

Thanks for the answers thus far.  Any word on how the 1962 stock coped with running on both Central and Northern Lines?  Or the Standard stock on Central and Piccadilly?  

 

Given that the affected section is only a part of the Central Line I would assume the stocks all had (and the current generation of 1992 stock has) extra compensation built in.  As Dan mentions the 92 stock has high-lift gear but as one question is answered so another is posed because we leanr that the outer rail is at a different height on different parts of the same line.

 

 

 

There was an incident where the preserved 1960 Cravens tube stock when it was being transfered ..... when its shoegear, which should have been tied up clear of the current rail collided with the current rail.

1960 stock was built (and the trailers converted) for use as 1967 stock prototypes on the Woodford - Hainault shuttle (as was) to trial DOO and automatic operation for the Victoria Line.  I wold have thought the shoe-gear might have been capable of running over the entire line it was built for.

[Dan Hamblin]

The Cravens incident is an interesting one - the older stocks that operated on the Central Line had/have a similar shoe gear design to the Battery Locos, but it isn't the same. Now, since the Cravens stock was last used on the Central Line there has been a subtle change to the allowable tolerance on the vertical dimension for the high positive rail in the Central Line tunnels (allows it to be a little bit higher still). The BL shoe gear can better cope with it and (ironically) the Cravens pilot cars on the TRV have been fitted with this type of shoe gear, hence why it was missed with the preserved Cravens unit.

 

I don't know enough about the 62TS shoe gear, but it must be ok as there are regular transfers of, particularly, the 8-car RAT that serves the East end of the Central during leaf fall season.

 

Regards,

 

Dan

[PhilJ W]

The Cravens stock had been operating on other lines at 'heritage' events and the shoegear was amended accordingly. IIRC it is now incompatible with the new signaling system on the Central line as well hence the need to haul it rather than it travel under its own power. As Dan pointed out the newest tube stock is fitted with the 'high lift' shoegear which is a kind of mini pantograph fitted upside down. TfL are trying to reduce the number of different types of stock used on the system, this is nearing completion with the full size 'Surface' stock with the introduction of the S stock. This has been relatively easy to achieve as the different lines share track and sometimes run on Network Rail lines. The Tube lines are different in that the tunnels are extremely confined and  vary from line to line as mentioned above meaning that each type of stock has to be adapted to each line.

[L49]

The Cravens stock had been operating on other lines at 'heritage' events and the shoegear was amended accordingly. IIRC it is now incompatible with the new signaling system on the Central line as well hence the need to haul it rather than it travel under its own power. As Dan pointed out the newest tube stock is fitted with the 'high lift' shoegear which is a kind of mini pantograph fitted upside down. TfL are trying to reduce the number of different types of stock used on the system, this is nearing completion with the full size 'Surface' stock with the introduction of the S stock. This has been relatively easy to achieve as the different lines share track and sometimes run on Network Rail lines. The Tube lines are different in that the tunnels are extremely confined and  vary from line to line as mentioned above meaning that each type of stock has to be adapted to each line.

 

This is true. I don't know when the tolerances were amended, but the Craven's set definitely worked a railtour over the Central line back in 2000 (I think). This had to be done during engineering hours as the train was not permitted to operate with the Central Line ATO. Effectively a possession was placed on the whole line, and we were allowed to operate as the only moving vehicle that night. In this way the tour operated from West Ruislip to Epping, back to Woodford, then I think we went round the Hainault loop and back to West Ruislip via Gants Hill.

 

One memorable occasion on the night in question was passing through Bethnal Green in the wee small hours and seeing a rather confused bill poster working on the platform, who presumably had not been informed that the special was running. I wonder if he thought we were the ghost train!?! It's a god job he was working platform side...

[Patrick Blake]

The Cravens stock had been operating on other lines at 'heritage' events and the shoegear was amended accordingly. IIRC it is now incompatible with the new signaling system on the Central line as well hence the need to haul it rather than it travel under its own power. As Dan pointed out the newest tube stock is fitted with the 'high lift' shoegear which is a kind of mini pantograph fitted upside down. TfL are trying to reduce the number of different types of stock used on the system, this is nearing completion with the full size 'Surface' stock with the introduction of the S stock. This has been relatively easy to achieve as the different lines share track and sometimes run on Network Rail lines. The Tube lines are different in that the tunnels are extremely confined and  vary from line to line as mentioned above meaning that each type of stock has to be adapted to each line.

 

 

This is true. I don't know when the tolerances were amended, but the Craven's set definitely worked a railtour over the Central line back in 2000 (I think). This had to be done during engineering hours as the train was not permitted to operate with the Central Line ATO. Effectively a possession was placed on the whole line, and we were allowed to operate as the only moving vehicle that night. In this way the tour operated from West Ruislip to Epping, back to Woodford, then I think we went round the Hainault loop and back to West Ruislip via Gants Hill.

 

One memorable occasion on the night in question was passing through Bethnal Green in the wee small hours and seeing a rather confused bill poster working on the platform, who presumably had not been informed that the special was running. I wonder if he thought we were the ghost train!?! It's a god job he was working platform side...

The Cravens unit was stripped of it's ATO equipment many years prior to it's use on the Epping - Ongar Shuttle, so it never had any compatibility or incompatibility with any ATO system to start with.

 

Sadly the incident in 2014 had caused serious damage to one of the Cravens unit's shoegears. The damage let alone the new signalling has put a stopper for future excursions. The 1938 TS has suffered similar consequences as well which puts LU Heritage into doubt as a whole.

By looking at the timescales for various signalling upgrades, the Cravens unit will never run again under it's own power and that's if CHT can afford to repair the unit.

However I do remain optimistic that the Cravens Unit will once again work a Tour on the Piccadilly.

[Dan Hamblin]

I would imagine shoe gear spares for 60TS are virtually non-existant, your best bet may be to do the same conversion as on the TRV pilot cars i.e. fit Battery Loco type, for which there will be spares available.

 

You'll probably still have Tripcock on the Piccadilly until around 2025 (roughly, based on current predictions), after which that too will go to moving block and full ATO.

 

Regards,

 

Dan