Farish Prices. ?

[oreamnos]

I just did my daily review of what is new in stock at Hattons and was stunned to see the latest release of the perennial Fowler 4F is now in stock - priced at £70.

 

This post is not a swipe at Hattons at all - it would be fair to say I love that shop and I think its prices are good, even though a couple years ago I got an idea of its profit margins when it accidently included with my order a Bachmann Europe PLC invoice which indicated that Hattons had ordered twenty Farish "Illustrious" Class 50 locos at a cost of £42 per unit, which were being sold to the consumer for £59 each. Which was fine - it is entitled to make a fair profit.

 

No, I'm simply amazed that a model of such primitive specification like the 4F can cost £70. Back in October, 2010, from Hattons I bought a Farish 87xx late crest pannier tank for £42. Now Hattons is listing for sale a 57xx pannier tank, late crest, for £51. Except for slightly different cabs, these panniers are identical. There is certainly not £9 worth of difference there. For D&Es, when they were first released in 2006, Hattons was selling Farish Rail Blue Class 46 Peaks for £56. Today you can pre-order a Farish Rail Blue Class 46 Peak for £75. Apart from a different number printed on the cab, again, these models are for all intents and purposes, identical. Certainly the new one is not £19 better than the old one. By way of comparison, Hattons is offering Farish prototype Deltics for £80 - just £5 more.

 

I can understand paying £80 for the latest generation of locos with up to date tooling, features and mechanisms. I cannot understand, however, how Bachmann can justify exhobitant prices on models where the tooling costs where amortized long ago. I cannot believe there is pressure on Bachmann from the workers at its Chinese factory to pay higher wages - not in China! Raw materials and transport costs? Sure, there has been inflation. But if these costs have increase so much then why have prices not shot through the roof across the whole range?

 

It's one thing to make a fair profit but I have to wonder if £70 for a 4F, £51 for a pannier, and £75 for a Peak is a bit more than fair. At these prices, Farish locos are now more expensive than comparatible locos made by Union Mills!

 

Matt

[Kris]

Wages in china has risen significantly over the past year, some statistics are putting the rise at 15 - 30% in the areas that are producing lots of goods for the west. Add this in with raw material costs that have also significantly risen and it helps to explain the rises.

[PhilH]

Have you been to Tesco, or indeed a garage lately? - never mind toy train prices.....

[Dave777]

I cannot understand, however, how Bachmann can justify exhobitant prices on models where the tooling costs where amortized long ago.

 

Because people are willing to pay it, simple as that I'm afraid. Why sell something for £40 when you could sell it for £70? Sound business thinking to me!

[The Stationmaster]

As Phil says - look around at other things. The value of the GBP has dropped by c.20% since 2007, the price of oil has risen again in the past year thus increasing raw material prices and shipping costs, and as already noted the cost of labour in China has also risen substantially. And according to some analysts many Chinese companies are deliberately not feeding through all of their cost increases into the price of finished goods because they don't want to go into a manufacturing slump.

 

Using just the decline in the value of the £ the cost of that Class 46 would have risen to £67 by now - chuck in the other cost factors and £75 on a pre-order doesn't sound all that unbelievable.

[Butler Henderson]

Ever thought of actually looking at the Farish price list ? 4F £85.75, 57xx £52.95, 46 £92.55. Prototype Deltic £109.95

[Guest dilbert]

VAT went up by 2.5% at the start of the year, Oil prices are creeping upwards and everyone is going to be hit by energy price increases - factor in the cost of basic foodstuffs and then take a look at how your payslip hasn't risen in line with all of these tax and commodity hikes and then throw in a good dose of inflation... dilbert

[oreamnos]

Because people are willing to pay it, simple as that I'm afraid. Why sell something for £40 when you could sell it for £70? Sound business thinking to me!

 

I appreciate prices have gone up, even here in California. But are people actually willing to pay £70 for a Farish Fowler 4F? Or put another way, will they actually be able to sell them at that price? I'd seriously like to know. I know opinions may differ, but £70 seems to me to be a huge amount to pay for what you get compared to, for instance, a Union Mills 3F which is handmade in Britain, will out-pull the Farish and sells for £69. I wonder if Colin Heard ever thought he'd honestly be able to compete with the major manfacturers on price?! (I know he is VAT exempt and if he weren't his prices would be higher. But still...)

 

I imagine the used loco market on ebay will become even more popular.

 

Matt

[frobisher]

One of the things to consider when comparing prices is when the stock was purchased.

 

The Peak is probably a good example. The two batches were prepared about 4-5 years apart. The older one will be the tail end of the initial stock Hattons purchased from the first run, perhaps there has been some discounting to try and get the stubborn stuff to move. The new one will have been bought at the new, higher price (inflation et al) and will also be less heavily discounted because it's new. The Peak doesn't cost Bachmann dramatically less to manufacture than the more fully featured Deltic (the expensive parts are pretty much the same between both - motor, drive chain and stuff),

[Karhedron]

I imagine the used loco market on ebay will become even more popular.

It already is popular to the point that it is hard to get a bargain, even on 2nd hand locos. Then of course you have the usual caveat emptor of buying 2nd hand rather than from a shop which will refund or replace in case of faults.

 

I buy rolling stock on eBay but I prefer to get locos new. My LMS does fairly good prices (not as cheap as Hattons but not far off when you deduct P&P). Plus I can see the loco running before I buy it.

[Dr Al]

(the expensive parts are pretty much the same between both - motor, drive chain and stuff),

 

Having dismantled the Peak there are very few components that are in any way common with the Deltic - different motor, driveshafts, worms gearing etc etc, so they may not be so directly comparable.

 

Cheers,

Alan

[Revolution Mike]

I cannot believe there is pressure on Bachmann from the workers at its Chinese factory to pay higher wages - not in China! Raw materials and transport costs? Sure, there has been inflation.

 

Inflation (particularly wage based) in China is even higher than the UK. Add in material and transport cost increases, then add our VAT increase at start of year and you get a good idea of some of the recent price rises. There has been price rises across the range, but it is clearly more obvious on the higher priced items.

[Edwin_m]

Having dismantled the Peak there are very few components that are in any way common with the Deltic - different motor, driveshafts, worms gearing etc etc, so they may not be so directly comparable.

 

But the important thing is that even though the actual parts are diffierent, their number and general nature is similar and therefore so is the cost of producing and assembling them. The Deltic may even be slightly quicker to assemble - I certainly find the newer diesel chassis easier to put back together and maybe the Chinese do too!

 

Another cost disparity is between the class 158 or 170 and the 150. The latter is in a different league for detail, with lights and a DCC socket, but is currently between £7 and £15 cheaper at Hattons. This may be because the single powered bogie of the 150 means it has fewer components.

[Revolution Mike]

Another cost disparity is between the class 158 or 170 and the 150. The latter is in a different league for detail, with lights and a DCC socket, but is currently between £7 and £15 cheaper at Hattons. This may be because the single powered bogie of the 150 means it has fewer components.

 

Or it could be that the 150s are from older production runs than the recently produced 158s/170s and that future 150s will be significantly more expensive...

 

You can see a similar thing with two versions of the same model the blue 108 (371-876 and 371-876A), the first batch is £68 and pre-order price on the second batch is £80.

[frobisher]

Having dismantled the Peak there are very few components that are in any way common with the Deltic - different motor, driveshafts, worms gearing etc etc, so they may not be so directly comparable.

 

Sorry should have been a little clearer on what I meant to say. They're not common components between the two, but the the guts are the same kinds of things costing about the same to manufacture, and in a similar arrangement pretty much. The cost to produce a metal chassis, motor, pickups, gear train, circuit boards etc will be about the same for the two as will the assembly cost.

[Dr Al]

But the important thing is that even though the actual parts are diffierent, their number and general nature is similar and therefore so is the cost of producing and assembling them. The Deltic may even be slightly quicker to assemble - I certainly find the newer diesel chassis easier to put back together and maybe the Chinese do too!

 

I agree the costs are likely to be similar (or we'd have seen a real hike), but I'd be surprised if the Deltic didn't cost a little more - it does have significantly more components - PCB that needs assembled (Peak has no PCB or electrical parts at all - motor simply sandwiched between chassis sides), lighting circuitry in the body (Peak has none), together with various separate detail parts on the body (Peak has few).

 

The Peak actually is a good example of simple simple contruction - two chassis halves, a motor, two bogies, two driveshafts and a 3 screws holding it all together, and a body dropped on top.

 

Another cost disparity is between the class 158 or 170 and the 150. The latter is in a different league for detail, with lights and a DCC socket, but is currently between £7 and £15 cheaper at Hattons. This may be because the single powered bogie of the 150 means it has fewer components.

 

Again, the 150 will have significantly more components for the reasons above, together with additional separate glazing units and various internal seating. Again the 158/170 are from the initial Bachmann simple simple era style chassis (which are perfectly good and generally excellent runners).

 

Cheers,

Alan

[Stu from EGDL]

Hi Gang;

 

I have to agree that prices seemed to have rocketed recently, and distasteful though it is, we are a declining currency in an inflational world. It could have been a lot worse had we joined the Euro all those years ago!!!

 

On the subject of construction costs....despite the complexity, or not, of the token models, assembly will be refined over time from several minutes per model to something a lot less. I think that packaging plays a part too. Look a the models we receive with way too much detailing parts..eg Modelzone Pullman Wrens!!! with table lamps. The cost of changing production outweighs the streamlining of the line!!!

 

Simple economics now...if the prices rise too much, we will suffer initially, then the manufacturers will suffer from loss of sales ...thereby, reducing prices (relatively)..or dealers will heavily discount. I'm afraid that this has always been the way.

 

I will probably purchase more locos/coaches/wagons etc at the market value prices...but I have to say that I am a little more circumspect now...as I assume a lot of others are.

 

Regards;

STU from EGDL

[APOLLO]

We will see more "Railroad" type models produced. Look at Hornby's Tornado. They will sell more of these at around £70 than than a highly detailed £150+ model.

Will Bachman bring out a similar range ?. I hope so.

 

Also look around. Hattons have some good bargains. An unrebuilt parallel boiler scot at £50. Cheap diesels also. Shop around.

 

Brit15

[Stu from EGDL]

 

Also look around. Hattons have some good bargains. An unrebuilt parallel boiler scot at £50. Cheap diesels also. Shop around.

 

Brit15

 

Only if you want it in 'OO'....

http://www.ehattons.com/StockDetail.aspx?SID=21222

 

N Gauge Scots are currently £76. I think I got mine just shortly after release for £64!!!

 

I'll concede that the DRS 47 for £49 is good value though!!

 

Later;

STU from EGDL.

[oreamnos]

 

Simple economics now...if the prices rise too much, we will suffer initially, then the manufacturers will suffer from loss of sales ...thereby, reducing prices (relatively)..or dealers will heavily discount. I'm afraid that this has always been the way.

 

I will probably purchase more locos/coaches/wagons etc at the market value prices...but I have to say that I am a little more circumspect now...as I assume a lot of others are.

 

Regards;

STU from EGDL

 

While I think as educated modelers and consumers we can make educated guesses about what items will sell and what won't, without having access to the (very secret, I'm sure) number of units produced in a particular livery and the number taken into inventory by each retailer, it's hard for us to guess if something will eventually be discounted until it becomes fairly obvious that it will be, like that DRS 47 for £49, or the five year old blue Peaks Hattons discounted to £49 and finally sold out of a couple months ago.

 

Like Stu, I'm sure I will purchase more items at market prices. But I am only doing so if I think I am getting value for money, e.g. I think £16 for the new Farish Mk1s is OK. But IMHO £70 for a primitive Farish Fowler 4F is not value for money. I think I will keep a eye on that item as a case study in supply and demand as I've a feeling Hattons is not going to sell many of those locos at that price given what else is in the marketplace now.

 

Matt