PLD Posted June 24, 2011 Share Posted June 24, 2011 Are there any other steam old pre-war lorries in die-cast? Staying with the Lledo range which are reasonably consistent in scale but definitely under 4mm/ft, you have: 1931 Sentinel Steam Wagon 4 wheel - Open and canvas back body styles (DG088xxx number series) 1931 Sentinel Steam Wagon 4 wheel - Flat bed body (DG099xxx) 1931 Sentinel Steam Wagon 6 wheel - Open and canvas back body styles (DG101xxx) Foden C-type steam wagon - Open and canvas back body styles (DG091xxx) 1934 Sentinel S4 dropside Open and canvas back body styles (DG097xxx) 1934 Sentinel S6 dropside Open and canvas back body styles (DG101xxx) 1934 Sentinel S6 - Flat bed body (DG103xxx) Oddly, the flat bed body does not appear to have been issued (as least as a general release) on 3 of the 5 chassis types... Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertiedog Posted June 24, 2011 Author Share Posted June 24, 2011 It did look like the other Sentinels were smaller, knowing Lledo's practice of scaling to fit the box, rather than known scales, smaller then 4mm does not really matter too much, bigger is the problem. There is no local shop to see these die-cast these days, have to rely on catalogues or Ebay, and determining size is very difficult indeed. At least the Oxford brand claim 4mm scale for the cars and lorries they do. Stephen. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertiedog Posted June 25, 2011 Author Share Posted June 25, 2011 Very old and tatty Matchbox Yesteryear die cast lorry for stripping, detailing, and re-painting, it's about HO scale, but the type fits 4mm uses within reason. A new load, the Sentinel, and I think with some period 193/40''s Oxford cars, there will be enough transport items for the tiny new layout. For the BEC Dick Kerr Works tram I am stripping a Bachmann Underground Ernie inspection vehicle chassis, where, for once, the higher set motor will not matter. The plastic side frames are to be removed, and spacers added to the axles to control the side play, which is very excessive on the mechanism. The Ernie wheel base is about 1.5 mm short of the BEC, but it barely shows with the wheels deeply buried behind the heavy cast whitemetal outside frames. Wheels diameter is just about correct. It's got four wheel drive, with a tiny 3pole can motor, and very smooth, and has a hidden advantage that the gauge and back to back can be adjusted, the axles fit into the gears via stub axles, and can be pulled outwards.. They can be put into the lathe,to re-profile to finer flange standards, and polish up the tyre etc. The power is picked up in an odd way, via outside metal stirrup frames that are located on studs on the chassis, and act as pin point bearings as well. The whole lot floats on the chassis, and when out of the original side frames , becomes a bit to able to wobble and float about. Even with the frames on there is a lot of movement that is just not needed. The simplest solution rather than firmly fix the stirrups to the chassis(not easy), is to fit axle spacers to restrict the sideways movement. These are just thick washers to fit the plastic axle extensions to the gears, about 3.5 mm thick in brass This still allows a bit of flex and give and results in a very smooth running mechanism. As it is to run on the overhead lines, the two side frames could be joined underneath with a soldered on brass or phosphor bronze strap, but I'll leave it two rail as well for the moment. The strap would have the advantage that the spacers would not be needed, as it would act as restraint in the same way as the axle spacers would. The motor has a sub of 2.7 mm armature shaft sticking out of the back end, and with a small piece of plastic chassis removed, there is enough space to add a small flywheel, which improves the running even more. Being a works Tram, nothing shows at all, there are no windows, so the Ernie chassis is just about perfect for the job. The only final problem is mounting it, and it needs a brass surround made to secure to the BEC floor. To stabilise mounting the stubs of the old sideframes support are left to bear on the back of the BEC cast sideframes. Photos to follow of the alterations.to the Ernie mechanism. Stephen Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertiedog Posted June 25, 2011 Author Share Posted June 25, 2011 Parcel post has delivered an EFE Leeds Horsefield tram today, a bit surprised to find the truck in plastic, and it seems smaller than 4mm scale, but I am checking some scale drawings. Looks smaller against the BEC trams, but good general finish and fitted glazing, a bow collector version. Red livery really suits most trams if they are not in a panelled multi colour livery. EFE design is superior to the Corgi, but the bogie cars from them are good as well, It even has decent wheels, to 16.5 mm gauge, fitted. The standard of detail really deserves a decent mechanism completely under the floor, so some micro coreless Nigel Lawton motors and a gearbox and belt belt drive I think. A 1:1 belt drive from micro motor across the frames, to a miniature gearbox along side it, and then a urethane belt drive to each axle, should just fit the longer wheel base of the EFE Horsefield tram. It will need a sub chassis made from brass to take the motor and gear box. The belt drive would also allow a bit of springing to the chassis as well. Stephen. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertiedog Posted June 25, 2011 Author Share Posted June 25, 2011 The EFE Leeds Horsefield Tram is a little but under scale size, compared the a Crich drawing,, and lower than the BEC, but is lower in real life anyway. Looks quite easy to motorise, but the assembly is a bit odd, it uses rods to connect the floor to the roof,, so threaded replacements will be needed or glued assembly of the body parts. One of the Corgi 4 wheeler crew can be transferred to it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertiedog Posted June 26, 2011 Author Share Posted June 26, 2011 Whilst working on the Underground Ernie 4 wheeled chassis I looked up Ebay and trams and noticed that the bogie chassis from the Underground Ernie sets is advertised suitable to motorise the corgi EI Feltham and the Blackpool Balloons. This seems a bit odd for the London trams, they have unequal bogies, ( not sure about the Blackpool without looking it up. Are they just compromising with the model and fitting equal wheel size bogies? or are the bogies having the inner axles changed, which means no drive to that axle. The UE chassis are very good, but cannot rival a tram chassis for tight corners, especially as the motor is on the chassis, and the pivot is around the gear. Has anybody seen these UE chassis fitted to the trams in question? Stephen. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenser Posted June 26, 2011 Share Posted June 26, 2011 Not all London trams had "maximium traction" unequal wheel bogies. The HR/2s had equal wheel bogiesand so did no 1 Bluebird . Production Felthams had maximum traction bogies but the difference in wheel diameter looks relatively small , so an equal wheeled bogie could pass as a fudge (I'm not sure it would be acceptable to you, but some would certainly regard it as passable) The centre entrance prototype Feltham did however have equal wheel bogies Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertiedog Posted June 26, 2011 Author Share Posted June 26, 2011 Regrettably the Underground Ernie truck has a problem that is quite a killer,, the pin point outer bearings, which also act as pckups, meaning the unit is too wide to fit the BEC frames or the Corgi. The pin points are at Y, and the width of X is 2mm too wide to fit the standard width of both the BEC and Corgi, (and EFE as well). If a new BEC was involved it would be east to modify the side frames during assembly , but pre-built it s a lot of modification to do. The sides could be widened, or the whole truck replaced with etched sides. It may be possible to modify the UE by swapping the pinpoint sideframes around and drilling out to make internal bearing behind the wheels, shortening the gear sleeve a bit. This would leave the pickups as bearings and working pickups as well. The pin points on the axles can be ground or files off to get the fit. So back to cleaning up the one axle drive BEC units for the moment but I think the UE might be persuaded to alter enough... The bogie units are OK, they use internal pick-ups, and I did check, they do not swap over, as the wheel base is fractionally shorter.. Stephen. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertiedog Posted June 26, 2011 Author Share Posted June 26, 2011 I wondered if it was possible to just swap parts from the bogied version, which uses internal pickups, but for reasons known only to Bachmann the wheels base is just a fraction shorter, and the gears a bit different, so the parts for the inspection chassis would have to be altered. It may be possible to swap wheels into the gear sleeves, but these would have to be shortened to take the pickups, which act as the bogie bearing. Nothing is easy to modify with these good running chassis! Stephen. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PLD Posted June 26, 2011 Share Posted June 26, 2011 Are they just compromising with the model and fitting equal wheel size bogies? Yes... Has anybody seen these UE chassis fitted to the trams in question? Yes, and would not recommend it - worse than the commonly used Bachmann PCC... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Devil Posted June 26, 2011 Share Posted June 26, 2011 Whilst working on the Underground Ernie 4 wheeled chassis I looked up Ebay and trams and noticed that the bogie chassis from the Underground Ernie sets is advertised suitable to motorise the corgi EI Feltham and the Blackpool Balloons. This seems a bit odd for the London trams, they have unequal bogies, ( not sure about the Blackpool without looking it up. Are they just compromising with the model and fitting equal wheel size bogies? or are the bogies having the inner axles changed, which means no drive to that axle. The UE chassis are very good, but cannot rival a tram chassis for tight corners, especially as the motor is on the chassis, and the pivot is around the gear. Has anybody seen these UE chassis fitted to the trams in question? Stephen. Underground Ernies and Bachmann Brills are commomly used to motorize Blackpool Ballons, Railcoaches and Felthams for a variety of reasons, the main ones being that they're cheap and resonably good performers, the fact that truck wheelbase/type and even bogie centres are wrong doesn't seem to matter to most fitting them as it gets something running pretty cheaply. Maximum traction trucks for the Feltham are a bit more problematic, there is a kit using the BEC max traction trucks, but, and it's just a personal thing, I don't like them as getting them to perform well is not easy and I just have a bit of a thing about not using white metal framed trucks, the other option used to be the Tramalan under floor type with a central 3 pole motor driving through rubber tubes, but NLA. There is I think stiil availabe the ex PC Models, ex David voice etched bogie drive chassis stiil available. I've gone down a slightly different route for bogie trams, using a Mashima 10/12 can motor driving Halling bogies through 1.5mm plastic UJs, the Halling bogies are equal wheel, and a fraction long in wheelbase, but with this method it's not too intrusive and uses readily available parts, should I really want a max traction truck it would be possible by fitting a smaller wheel and removing drive to it, but to be honest with trucksides fitted it's not overly noticeable and 8wheel drive and pick up is always going to be better than 4 wheel drive, especially on fierce corners where bogie trams seem to struggle. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
graeme3300 Posted June 27, 2011 Share Posted June 27, 2011 Further to Bertiedog's posting, may I suggest replacing the two pressed steel pieces with shim brass or phosphor bronze strip pick-ups fitting over the same plastic studs, but arranged to collect power from the backs of the wheels in time-honoured fashion, or even off the wheel treads. This would allow the pinpoints to be removed from the axles and more of the bottom clip (which holds the pickups on each side in place, even though they can slop about laterally quite a lot.) A bit of extra packing between the thinner replacement pickups and the retaining clip should also help reduce the sloppiness. (See the solid blue line in the photo.) There is plenty of room to do these modifications. This should overcome the clearance problems and allow the unit to fit inside the BEC/Corgi truck frames. I've added some bits to Bertiedog's photos to make this a bit clearer. Graeme Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertiedog Posted June 27, 2011 Author Share Posted June 27, 2011 The modification suggested both by myself and Graeme must bear in mind the odd layout of the Bachmann , the bearings for the whole mechanism are the outer pinpoints, the inner plastic frame does nothing bar space the gears !!! So if new pickups are made, they have got to be very accurately made, and able to acts as bearings and locators for the axle Bachmann have done all of this already on the bogied version with flat plates rather than cranked, so if the inspection truck is altered flat plates can be used, but will need to be allowed to be more flush on the locating stubs. On trucks off the shelf there are the Spuds and Hollywood Foundry available, but I am designing a belt unit using three belts and micro motor from Nigel Lawton, as it can get under the floor. The EFE tram is very tight fit, but the wheelbase is longer, and an 8mm diameter motor just fits, with a layshaft and 3:1 belt, followed by 3:1, then 3:1 to the wheels giving 27:1 overall, which lowers speed, and allows for the tiny motors low power a bit better. It may be possible to squeeze nearer 3.5:1 at nearly 43:1 This will involve lathe work, as very small pulleys are required that in reality will be grooves on the shafts. The calculator on Nigel Lawton's site shows the belt sizes are made to suit, they must be accurate as tight belts cause friction. Cost is low, about a third of commercial, and a coreless motor, usefully low current when getting power from overhead. Stephen. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertiedog Posted June 27, 2011 Author Share Posted June 27, 2011 It may be possible to motorise the EFE with a layshaft, 14:1 worm drives, and a vertically mounted micro motor set in the area of the footplate under the stairs, reasonably hidden when painted black and the driver etc., in place, less intrusive than in the lower deck passenger space. The gear ratio would be high at 196:1 but this would favour the tiny motor greatly. 6mm and 8mm diameter motors are available. Low top speed, but then trams crawl anyway most of the time. An alternative would be to lay the tiny motor flat on the platform floor, (it would be under door window height), and use a 3:1 belt drive to the layshaft with the worm gears, giving 42:1, still a good ratio to favour a small motor. This would allow the slightly larger diameter motor to be used. Stephen. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertiedog Posted July 6, 2011 Author Share Posted July 6, 2011 Transport vehicle to go with the trams, a Sentinel S6 from Days Gone range, appears near to 4mm within reason, a nice diecast and plastic model, with the right sort of load! Stephen. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PLD Posted July 7, 2011 Share Posted July 7, 2011 ... a Sentinel S6 ... Not quite... What you have there is actually a 6 wheel 'Super Sentinel'. Confusingly, they are often described as a 'Super 6' which then gets erroneously shortened to 'S6', but the true 'S' Series Sentinels have an (almost) conventional lorry cab with the boiler (usually oil-fired) in the rear of the cab like this one. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertiedog Posted July 7, 2011 Author Share Posted July 7, 2011 Yes ,I do know the Sentinel types, Grandad ran them in the 1930's in his haulage business, and Lledo mistakenly call it an S4, almost all Sentinels were simply called S plus number of axles by the drivers. Extremely powerful lorries finished off by crew cost and road tax changes and increasing reliability of diesels. Insurance was relatively high as well, Stephen. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertiedog Posted July 9, 2011 Author Share Posted July 9, 2011 And a Morris 8 open tourer from Oxford, makes a change from Matchbox, very detailed for 1/76 OO scale. Stephen. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortliner Posted July 9, 2011 Share Posted July 9, 2011 I don't know if this is of any use to anyone on here (yes - it is HO and it is US Trackside Interurban rather that street span) http://2guyz.info/Content/pa=showpage/pid=29.html Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertiedog Posted July 9, 2011 Author Share Posted July 9, 2011 Very interesting, it is the way I did them before, almost exactly, but more to generic UK pattern, at the time I had some Kemtron lost wax fittings as well, but these are not made now, and expensive anyway. Most will be formed from plated copper and brass wire this time, plus some etched parts. Many thanks, Stephen. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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