Mucky Duck Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 Can someone please enlighten me on the difference between British Railways Multiple Unit Green, pre 1954 and post 1954? I'm just about to airbrush a Class 504 EMU with the Phoenix Precision paint that came with the kit and I've only just noticed that the label says 'Pre 1954', when the units weren't even born until 1959! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 You'll be all right for about 5 hours, it's only 1424. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mucky Duck Posted July 1, 2011 Author Share Posted July 1, 2011 You'll be all right for about 5 hours, it's only 1424. What a relief, I was worried sick! Thanks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SRman Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 Earlier multiple units got a shade of green not unlike malachite green (it is actually referred to as malachite in some publications). Later delivered units and repaints received a darker green very like Brunswick green.One of my books on BR liveries from 1948-68 shows a pair of class 501 units with the leading one in the dark green with cream lining and the rear unit in the unlined "malachite" shade. The differences in shade are quite marked. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cctransuk Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 Earlier multiple units got a shade of green not unlike malachite green (it is actually referred to as malachite in some publications). Later delivered units and repaints received a darker green very like Brunswick green. So - can anyone say definitively which shade of MU green ex-GWR railcars W22W and W33W+W1096W+W38W received? Both are forthcoming projects for me, plus W14W in blood & custard. On the back of these projects, lettering and lining transfers, (including speed whiskers), for ex-GWR railcars should become available later this year. Regards, John Isherwood, Cambridge Custom Transfers. http://www.cctrans.freeserve.co.uk/ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weekday Cross Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 So - can anyone say definitively which shade of MU green ex-GWR railcars W22W and W33W+W1096W+W38W received? Both are forthcoming projects for me, plus W14W in blood & custard. On the back of these projects, lettering and lining transfers, (including speed whiskers), for ex-GWR railcars should become available later this year. Regards, John Isherwood, Cambridge Custom Transfers. http://www.cctrans.freeserve.co.uk/ I have seen a photo of at least one of the GW railcars in the darker green. W22W is illustrated on page 64 of "British Railways in Colour" by Colin Boocock, where he states "BR first painted the GWR railcars in red and cream livery, but a few later received standard DMU dark green." Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mucky Duck Posted July 2, 2011 Author Share Posted July 2, 2011 Thanks for that SRman. As I'm unable to get any paint reasonably quickly, yesterday I ended up mixing various colours into my green until I got something looking like the two colour 504 images I have. I guess it doesn't look too bad this morning. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisf Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 What puzzles me in this topic is the reference to 1954. As far as electric units are concerned my understanding is that from 1949 to 1959 a shade of green very similar to malachite was used. DMUs had to be different. The Derby Lightweights and, I understand, the non-101 Met-Cam units came out in dark green. From mid 1956 the lighter shade very similar to malachite was applied but from mid 1959 the darker shade was reintroduced. It was recorded at the time that the first dmus to carry dark green in its second innings were the St Pancras suburban sets, later Class 127. There is a Colour-Rail slide showing the GW railcar set 33/1096/38 in the darker green and with the lining on 1096 in an odd place. As the surviving GW railcars began to receive green from mid 1959 it is moat unlikely that any received the lighter green. Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mucky Duck Posted July 2, 2011 Author Share Posted July 2, 2011 What puzzles me in this topic is the reference to 1954. Chris Exactly. I wondered about the significance of this year. Someone at Phoenix Precision Paints knows something and I think we should be told! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SRman Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 Confirming/reinforcing what Chris said, there are pictures in Haresnape's and Boocock's publications showing classes 100 and 126 in the lighter green. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Max Stafford Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 I think the 1954 reference refers specifically to the shade used on locos. There was some change in the specification then although I'm not sure what it was in truth. As has been said, the much more attractive MU green was applied to railcars until the late '50s. Late '50s BR seemed to develop a bit of an aversion to attractive colours! Dave. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 I was commuting between Oldham and Manchester from 1958 for almost two years and actually took an interest in the emerging brandnew DMU's. My recollection of watching Units coming into service on the Oldham Loop and lines radiating from Manchester was that the Dark Green carried on as had been used in 1955-6 on early Met-Camm that came down from Bury, and Derby Lightweight Units I'd seen in North Wales. Then some Units appeared in the lighter green for some reason, which at the time looked quite austere, but dark green seemed to be the 'standard' shade. New DMU's including the light green ones seemed to be running in on the Oldham Loop, which is what made this brief period so interesting. The elderly LMS Period I EMU's on the services out of Manchester Oxford Road seemed to be in various shadeds of middish- green, but they were definetely not as bright as the LNER EMU's on the Glossop service. I cannot answer for the reference to 1954, except to say the LYR Bury EMU's continued to carry brownish maroon well into the early 1950s. Did BR make a late decision on adopting light green for EMU's? I have to admit it is not my area. Be suspect of captions in Colin Boococks 'British Railways in colour 1948-68', as the author has mis-read over exposed photos of DMU's and also jumped to a few conclusions concerning dates and heritage. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Allen Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 I am in the same quandry. Still currently finishing off a BR Mk1 4-EPB. The friend for whom I am building it and I chose the post 1954 green from Phoenix (P119) but to me it now looks too olive and the 1959-66 electric stock green (P124) looked too dark, which in theory the EPB should be painted. Earlier BR 2-EPB's would in theory be turned out in the post 54 green, but one book states that all BR(S) electric stock continued to be painted in dark Malachite green until 1957 ! There are worms all over the floor at the moment. I'll be contacting Phoenix Precision on Monday to order some of the P124 electric stock green, and will enquire about the pre and post 1954 liveries. Ian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 The subtle variants of coach greens listed in the PPC/Phoenix range may be a rivet-counters dream but, to all intents and purposes I think one could narrow the BR EMU green down to SR malachite in its lightest form to to B48 BR Southern Coach Green as its darkest. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Allen Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 The subtle variants of coach greens listed in the PPC/Phoenix range may be a rivet-counters dream but, to all intents and purposes I think one could narrow the BR EMU green down to SR malachite in its lightest form to to B48 BR Southern Coach Green as its darkest. Well, not exactly, the light malachite green was pre war with a darker version introduced post war. This may well have lasted on BR(S) until 1959 with the introduction of BR electric stock green. I now think the pre and post 1954 greens were for DMU's. The difficulty is knowing that other regions EMU stock was painted in the post 1954 BR green. But a 2-NOL on the railway is painted with the pre 54 green and it looks correct. Two 2-BIL's are in the darker SR Malachite green, with a 4-SUB in the lighter Malachite green (which really is incorrect as it would have had a re-paint and so should be darker). Confused.com ? Yes ! Ian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 Well, not exactly, I mentioned Malachite at one end of the spectrum and the darker form of malachite called BR(S) green at the other end, and that anything in between should fit the bill. It is all in the mixing and if done correctly will produce various shades of 'malachite' as distinct from shades of GWR/BR loco green as applied to most DMUs. If people could go back in a Tardis, they might be suprised to see the green on the MSJR EMU's out of Manchester Oxford Road was darker than that on the EMU's out of London Road and that the green within a train differed too. I always maintain that so long as colour fits within a generally accepted spectrum then models look right. EMU green had a wide spectrum....LMS lake and BR maroon a much narrower spectrum. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Allen Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 At the moment I'm quite prepared to just stick my head in a bucket....a green one of course... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Allen Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 Ok, an update, specifically for anyone modelling Southern Region EMU's. Pre 1958 ALL multiple units were painted the post war dark malachite green. Post 1958 was when "Mid-Brunswick Green (BS381C- Shade 226)" was introduced. In fact, the railways never referred to BR green as Brunswick, they were either light, mid or dark. Apparently, as I have been informed, Humbrol, Precision and Railmatch no longer manufactur their own paint, with Humbrol coming out of a factory in China. Courtesy of the Chairman of the EPB Preservation Group, he told me where they source their paint from (T&R Williamsons) and I have spoken to a very helpful chap there who is hopefully going to arrange a test sample for me. Going back to the 504's though, having spoken to my father this morning, he remembers them being something like a Brunswick Green which darkened after a few years as it became "grotty" The green currently on the 4-EPB I have built certainly looks more like the dark DMU green which has been mentioned. Ian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mucky Duck Posted July 25, 2011 Author Share Posted July 25, 2011 Going back to the 504's though, having spoken to my father this morning, he remembers them being something like a Brunswick Green which darkened after a few years as it became "grotty" Ian Thanks Ian. I'd decided already to repaint the 504 and you've confirmed my thoughts about it looking pretty damn close to the Brunswick green of my BR steam locos. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernard Lamb Posted July 26, 2011 Share Posted July 26, 2011 Just to put a spanner (or several)in the works. Some first generation DMUs were built with alloy body panels while others were steel. This could give rise to a variation in the apparent colour, depending on the pretreatment and undercoat used. Try it at home if you do not believe me. There could also be a difference in how the two base materials affected the weathering of the top coat. Then there was the way that film emulsion of the period recorded not just colour, but colour intensity and gloss and just about every over variable to take into account. Again borrow a meter that reads gloss levels and do a few checks. You will probably be surprised both in how great a variation there is between various samples of 'high gloss' and in how your eyes and brain perceive things. Then there is the question of a large percentage of the population being colour blind, many people being particularly sensitive to slight changes in the blue area of the spectrum. I will not go into this again. It caused enough trouble last time I touuched on the subject. From a position 50 years or so after the event I reckon that it is pretty near impossible to reach a definitive conclusion that ever body will agree on. Paint it to your satisfaction, as to your eyes it will look right. Bernard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Allen Posted July 26, 2011 Share Posted July 26, 2011 Bernard, You are spot on regarding the sensitivity of colour film emulsions from different film manufacturers, plus the lack of consistency in processing which was improved vastly over the years. The C41 negative process is complex and if the chemicals were not made up to the correct solution, this would affect the final print, as well as the age of the chemicals when the film was processed. Base substrate of a particular film would also affect the overall "colour cast" a film may exhibit. Agfa stock was always warm with a slight brown hue, for example. The other problem of course is that the vast majority of photographs taken in the 50's were B&W anyway. Ian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted July 26, 2011 Share Posted July 26, 2011 Then there are those of us who were there, and please don't anyone insult my inteligence by telling me I can't remember what was light green and what was dark green! From memory, the dark green (as used on BR locos and many DMU's) was an early 1960s intro on Electric Multi Units. It was carried by the new Bury electrics out of Man Victoria. As I mentioned earlier, the lighter green was the problem, as it displayed several shades, although in model form I doubt it really matters. I say this because I make my own coaches appear different by using differing tecniques even though the colour being sprayed never varies. Rather than altering colours, I prefer to alter the undercoat or use gloss, eggshell or matt finishes, plus of course weathering. Each to their own of course. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mucky Duck Posted July 26, 2011 Author Share Posted July 26, 2011 …Then there is the question of a large percentage of the population being colour blind… Maybe that's why, to me Phoenix 'Frame Dirt' looks almost olive and unrelated to any protoype frame dirt I can see Some first generation DMUs were built with alloy body panels while others were steel. This could give rise to a variation in the apparent colour, depending on the pretreatment and undercoat used. … I make my own coaches appear different by using differing tecniques even though the colour being sprayed never varies. Rather than altering colours, I prefer to alter the undercoat or use gloss, eggshell or matt finishes, plus of course weathering… Interesting points about undercoats in particular, worth a separate thread… or has it been done here before? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted July 26, 2011 Share Posted July 26, 2011 Interesting points about undercoats in particular, worth a separate thread… or has it been done here before? Some of this is covered in my Blog on LNER and LMS non-corridor coaches :- http://www.rmweb.co....burban-coaches/ The carmine red I use has not been altered, and although it has nothing to do with EMU/DMU green, the same tecniques apply. All diferences are due to undercoat and varnish (clear cellulose). Some 'varnish' is sprayed on with plenty of air/little varnish while other finishes contain matting agent. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Allen Posted August 1, 2011 Share Posted August 1, 2011 Well T&R Williamson can supply the correct shade of paint I require, but minimum order currently is 1 litre which is more than I'll ever need. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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