Class 85

[gridwatcher]

thought that livery would be quite popular with those modelling the demise of steam and the introduction of electric.

i hope to see the weathered 85040 at this price but doubt it.....

 

It will be nearer twice that!?

[Francis deWeck]

It will be nearer twice that!?

Unfortunately, the prices could be something to be steamed up about, but hey-ho, quality will out.

[TRAILRAGE]

deleted post

Edited October 16, 2018 by TRAILRAGE

[ThaneofFife]

Shocked to see that the weathered release of 85040 has had a price rise to £179.95 according to the Bachmann website today and this is the same RRP as the much newer yet to be released Class 90s with their dcc operated pantograph's.

 

This is just so wrong in my eyes by Bachmann.  I think the RRP for the 85s was not so long ago (only a couple of months and mid-year too) about £154.

 

Not sure how Bachmann can explain that one away unless they have fitted these versions with a dcc pan ?....................I doubt they have done a partial retool on this model so I'm pretty disgusted TBH.  And will that go up again in a few months?  Be careful Mr Bachmann very careful.....just on this and the recent Class 66 price reduction situation following Hattons announcements example alone you are starting to come across as just being greedy.  Yes make a profit but I'm sorry this has really teed me off.

 

Tell me its another mess up on the website?

Edited January 27, 2019 by ThaneofFife

[Ouroborus]

Time will tell. The 85's have been a feature of clearance offers for some time. We'll reach peak rail soon

[WILLIAM]

Shocked to see that the weathered release of 85040 has had a price rise to £179.95 according to the Bachmann website today and this is the same RRP as the much newer yet to be released Class 90s with their dcc operated pantograph's.

 

This is just so wrong in my eyes by Bachmann.  I think the RRP for the 85s was not so long ago (only a couple of months and mid-year too) about £154.

 

Not sure how Bachmann can explain that one away unless they have fitted these versions with a dcc pan ?....................I doubt they have done a partial retool on this model so I'm pretty disgusted TBH.  And will that go up again in a few months?  Be careful Mr Bachmann very careful.....just on this and the recent Class 66 price reduction situation following Hattons announcements example alone you are starting to come across as just being greedy.  Yes make a profit but I'm sorry this has really teed me off.

 

Tell me its another mess up on the website?

 

I was thinking the same. To add to this, as the weathered 85 does not feature in the recently released 2019 Bachmann schedule does that mean the RRP is due another hike this time next year? I've cancellerd my pre-order for this model which I made in January 2017 at the price of £131 with the usual max 15% discount as it's going to cost nothing like that when it eventually appears.

 

Yet in the face of some competition conversely Bachmann have been able to reduce the RRP on their Class 66 significantly and presumably still make a reasonable profit on them. It strikes me that Bachmann, and other manufacturers, are having to increase the profit they make on each unit to maintain similar overall profit levels on less unit sales due to.....increasing costs & retail prices. A downward spiral if there was ever one.

 

Me personnally, I'm slowly coming to the end of the road with model purchasing, I have enough and generally no longer see new releases (particularly from old toolings) as value for money or affordable.

[RBE]

The issue may be that due to the overall poor sales of the 85 since it was released, especially when comparing to the class 66, the company is still trying to recoup the initial outlay to make the product in the first place.

 

The economies of producing models is not as straight forward as you think.

[ikks]

The issue may be that due to the overall poor sales of the 85 since it was released, especially when comparing to the class 66, the company is still trying to recoup the initial outlay to make the product in the first place.

 

The economies of producing models is not as straight forward as you think.

Was it really a poor seller?.........just asking as I really don't know. It certainly is a stunning model, I procrastinated and missed on the Electric blue one with no yellow panels last time but have now ordered the 2019 release.

 

Mike

[andyman7]

The issue of Bachmann prices has been very well aired across multiple threads. Suffice to say that the message from 'head office' (USA not Barwell) seems to be that if the Branchline range wants factory time it has got to generate profit per unit on a par with other ranges (e.g. Liliput). We don't have access to their numbers but it may well be that 500 models that sell for £150 will make more profit than 2000 at £100. I can't justfiy a spending spree with these latest prices but the 85 is such a beauty that I may well buy one. Let's face it, 25 years ago, if someone had marketed a ready to run AC electric model to that standard at £200 it would have sold. I aslo suspect that the post-price hike Bachmann models are likely to be much scarcer in years to come and I'd rather not be wishing I'd bought one in 10 years time for the sake of the extra £80.

[TravisM]

I think you also have to remember that the first run of Class 85’s arrived before Bachmann were forced to up the price because the Chinese upped their minimum wage (I think that was the reason). I think the same reasoning applies to the London Midland/Silverlink Class 350’s and the SWT Class 450’s as they basically share the same tooling but look at the price difference.

Edited January 27, 2019 by jools1959

['CHARD]

 the SWT Class 45’s 

 

What!!!!!????  With flush fronts and marker lights?  We didn't see these coming 

[Andy Mac]

Shocked to see that the weathered release of 85040 has had a price rise to £179.95 according to the Bachmann website today and this is the same RRP as the much newer yet to be released Class 90s with their dcc operated pantograph's.

 

This is just so wrong in my eyes by Bachmann.  I think the RRP for the 85s was not so long ago (only a couple of months and mid-year too) about £154.

 

Not sure how Bachmann can explain that one away unless they have fitted these versions with a dcc pan ?....................I doubt they have done a partial retool on this model so I'm pretty disgusted TBH.  And will that go up again in a few months?  Be careful Mr Bachmann very careful.....just on this and the recent Class 66 price reduction situation following Hattons announcements example alone you are starting to come across as just being greedy.  Yes make a profit but I'm sorry this has really teed me off.

 

Tell me its another mess up on the website?

Seriously doubt it’s a mistake.... I got an email from rails telling me the preorder price had risen significantly.... I simply cancelled the order.... the surprising thing was that the Hornby items I have on preorder that have rolled over into 2019, those prices are being honoured.... I think that tells you it all.... it’s simply a grab for as much money as possible....

['CHARD]

Seriously doubt it’s a mistake.... I got an email from rails telling me the preorder price had risen significantly.... I simply cancelled the order.... the surprising thing was that the Hornby items I have on preorder that have rolled over into 2019, those prices are being honoured.... I think that tells you it all.... it’s simply a grab for as much money as possible....

 

I think what it signifies, actually, is the contrasting pricing policies of two businesses that have faced different challenges both in the market-place and supply chain over the past 24 months.  Both of the major manufacturers have a delicate balance to strike, and they certainly don't set out to alienate either their loyal customer base or the discretionary/ impulse purchasers.

[TravisM]

What!!!!!????  With flush fronts and marker lights?  We didn't see these coming 

Whoops lol, now altered

[No Decorum]

Some of the last of the original 85s were certainly sold off cheaply. However, I recall Andy York saying that the 85s were a steady, rather than a spectacular, seller. As with many themes (such as industrial, pre-grouping and AC electrics) the appearance of a greater variety of models increases interest in each individual model. With a 90 and an 86 on the horizon and an 87 recently released, it may be that the re-run 85 will sell well enough to cover its costs, in spite of the fact that many of us may already have an 85.

 

The 90 is certainly better-specified than the 85 but instead, let’s compare the 90 to Hornby’s 87, which is a much more recent model than the 85. Hatton’s* prices are £8·96 higher for the 90 than the 87. You get a heck of a lot for your £8·96. The new Bachmann catalogue contains a Product Focus on the 90. It will have a sprung metal panto, which should please those praiseworthy souls who have installed knitting. It will have a servo motor, controllable under DCC to raise and lower it. It will have a speaker ready-fitted, which will greatly ease sound conversion. It will have lights switchable between day and night mode and individually controlled at each end. That feature is becoming more desirable with the increasing number of DVTs and their associated pull-push trains and also top-and-tail trains. It only remains to be seen if the cab lights are directional or individually controllable; the one area where Hornby just might be ahead.

 

*Ignoring that Hatton’s may not be able to supply the 90 and that the price of the 90 may well rise before it is released; variously estimated as from March to June.

[phil-b259]

Seriously doubt it’s a mistake.... I got an email from rails telling me the preorder price had risen significantly.... I simply cancelled the order.... the surprising thing was that the Hornby items I have on preorder that have rolled over into 2019, those prices are being honoured.... I think that tells you it all.... it’s simply a grab for as much money as possible....

 

Tells you what precisely?

 

In case you haven't noticed Bachman and Hornby products are not produced in the same factory, nor are the production methods identical. It is quite possible that Hornby are benefiting from the last year of a 'fixed price' contract based on historic lower wages while Bachmann have just signed a new one which reflects current and future wage increases.

 

Unless you are privy to the detailed Bachmann accounts you cannot assume price rises = a 'money grab' and is not related to increased costs.

 

You may not believe that the class 85 is worth £179 (and there is nothing wring with that) but to go round asserting that is due to cooperate greed without evidence is plain wring.

[GordonC]

Having already got 3 Bachmann Class 85s (2x 85026 and 85101), it gets harder to justify buying another when the price has gone up by not far less than £100 in just a few years. I would really have expected the Class 85 to have paid off its design and tooling costs now so I would have thought it should have been cheaper than the Class 90s

[shunny]

Bachmann are not alone with the price hike on modern loco's last year I bought Leviathan class 50 rrp of 179.99. The model no longer has the working fans or the opening doors and it still has as 8 pin socket and no switch for DC light control for turning of tail lights if not on DCC.

At least Bachmann have added to the models even if it's just upgrading light switches and cab lights. The also use 21 pin sockets on most diesel and electric loco models as standard.

[wombatofludham]

Can we just remind ourselves what Bachmann's primary reason for existance is?

To make the maximum return for their shareholders.

 

To do this they will try to charge the maximum price for the minimum cost of production, marketing and transport for items sold.  In competitive markets, this price is constrained by competition and the application of market forces.  However, if there is no competition, the company can charge as much as it likes unless there is some form of outside regulation as it's legal duty is to earn it's shareholders as much dividend as is legally possible after all other overheads and taxes.  It has little duty to the customer other than a need to comply with consumer protection rules, in fact it is almost duty bound to grab as much of the customer's money as it can possibly get to meet it's legal obligations to it's shareholders, and by offering good products people want, keep coming back to give their shareholders even better dividends.

 

Now in the real world things are not quite as brutal as that especially on discretionary luxury spending items like model railways but the basic principle remains, Bachmann's only duty is to make a profit to give it's shareholders a financial return.  No one else makes a Class 85, so if you want another Class 85, you can't go to Hornby for one.  You could consider substituting another type, or not modelling AC electrics, or take up knitting instead, and all these possible outcomes will have been factored into Bachmann's pricing strategy.  However, for as long as some of us continue to buy them (as I will when it's released, saves me a job with the weathering and transfers) because we want an 85, not a Peckett tea urn, then they are pretty much duty bound to extract as much of my money as they can.

 

Therefore complaints about pricing really should be considered in this context as they are doing nothing illegal or wrong, just fulfilling their legal obligations to make money for their shareholders.  The only way you will see price reductions is by competition (as in the emerging Class 66 three way battle and the Hornby challenge with the Mk2f) and I don't see that happening any time soon on a large scale.

[griffgriff]

I was thinking the same. To add to this, as the weathered 85 does not feature in the recently released 2019 Bachmann schedule does that mean the RRP is due another hike this time next year? I've cancellerd my pre-order for this model which I made in January 2017 at the price of £131 with the usual max 15% discount as it's going to cost nothing like that when it eventually appears.

 

Yet in the face of some competition conversely Bachmann have been able to reduce the RRP on their Class 66 significantly and presumably still make a reasonable profit on them. It strikes me that Bachmann, and other manufacturers, are having to increase the profit they make on each unit to maintain similar overall profit levels on less unit sales due to.....increasing costs & retail prices. A downward spiral if there was ever one.

 

Me personnally, I'm slowly coming to the end of the road with model purchasing, I have enough and generally no longer see new releases (particularly from old toolings) as value for money or affordable.

 

Agreed.... I’ve certainly become much more selective but it has inspired a return to real modelling. I’d much rather build something that spend £50 on a wagon.

 

PS regarding 85 sales (and everything else) Bachmann won’t be making much of a profit if they don’t sell any.

 

Griff

[stovepipe]

The only way you will see price reductions is by competition (as in the emerging Class 66 three way battle and the Hornby challenge with the Mk2f) and I don't see that happening any time soon on a large scale.

Or if sufficient people decide not to make a discretionary purchase, and they have to be discounted at a later date, as happened with 2 versions of the earlier batches.

 

A factor in the initial pricing is that Bachmann have a relatively fixed production capacity in that they only want to use one main factory. The pricing strategy is a reflection of the need to balance production across all their markets. Ergo shorter runs, at higher retail prices, which in turn surpresses demand meaning more markets can be served.

 

Trying to serve all markets from one factory is also I think the reason for the long gestation periods for new models. The factory is booked for months or possibly years ahead.

[Ouroborus]

Or if sufficient people decide not to make a discretionary purchase, and they have to be discounted at a later date, as happened with 2 versions of the earlier batches.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Now in the real world things are not quite as brutal as that especially on discretionary luxury spending items like model railways but the basic principle remains, Bachmann's only duty is to make a profit to give it's shareholders a financial return.  No one else makes a Class 85, so if you want another Class 85, you can't go to Hornby for one.  You could consider substituting another type, or not modelling AC electrics, or take up knitting instead, and all these possible outcomes will have been factored into Bachmann's pricing strategy.  However, for as long as some of us continue to buy them (as I will when it's released, saves me a job with the weathering and transfers) because we want an 85, not a Peckett tea urn, then they are pretty much duty bound to extract as much of my money as they can.

 

Therefore complaints about pricing really should be considered in this context as they are doing nothing illegal or wrong, just fulfilling their legal obligations to make money for their shareholders.  The only way you will see price reductions is by competition (as in the emerging Class 66 three way battle and the Hornby challenge with the Mk2f) and I don't see that happening any time soon on a large scale.

 

I don't see that anyone thinks Bachmann is behaving illegally, just an increasing number seem to be saying "enough".   All of model railway spending is discretionary, despite what some may think, nobody *needs* an 85.   When prices were a third of what they are now, my discretionary spending was much higher, I'd often come back with something I hadn't intended to.  Despite nothing material having changed in my life, these days I'm less inclined to do this, a discretionary spend of £150 is something that just isn't happening.   Now if Bachmann think smaller runs, fewer sales and charging more is one way to maximise profits, then so be it.  There is of course a counter argument that says bigger runs, lower prices, more sales (the pile it high and sell it cheap).  And that may also be effective - why not flog that tooling to death?.   

 

Where there seems to be a little cynicism is that Bachmann seem to have suddenly kept the lid on price increases where they have strong competition; that these price increases across the board are bigger that they need to be.  The mentioned 66 seemed to be galloping away on its RRP until Hattons' announced theirs.   Again, that's fine, that's business, but don't expect that people don't think about this when they come to make a discretionary spend.    We've heard all the stories about Chinese wages, shipping, exchange rates, transport, metal costs ad finitum, but now we're hearing that its to do with a company trying to maximise its profits and I sense that people are generally less tolerant of this principle.

 

Ultimately, none of us know or can foresee the future.  If the 85 becomes a major player in the next sale of the millennium, we'll have our answer

['CHARD]

1. Now if Bachmann think smaller runs, fewer sales and charging more is one way to maximise profits, then so be it. 
2. There is of course a counter argument that says bigger runs, lower prices, more sales (the pile it high and sell it cheap).  And that may also be effective - why not flog that tooling to death?.   
3. Where there seems to be a little cynicism is that Bachmann seem to have suddenly kept the lid on price increases where they have strong competition; that these price increases across the board are bigger that they need to be. 
4. The mentioned 66 seemed to be galloping away on its RRP until Hattons' announced theirs.   Again, that's fine, that's business, but don't expect that people don't think about this when they come to make a discretionary spend.   
5. We've heard all the stories about Chinese wages, shipping, exchange rates, transport, metal costs ad finitum, but now we're hearing that its to do with a company trying to maximise its profits and I sense that people are generally less tolerant of this principle.

 

(My numbering)

1. The entire sector has moved to smaller runs, this is not in any way unique to Bachmann.  
2. The complexity of modern models, with hundreds of individual parts added by hand, is incompatible with bigger runs of sell cheap and pile high.  This doesn't apply to Railroad (Hornby), which is itself the perennial cause of complaint for the high prices charged (what the market will bear).
3. Competition in action - surely this is what the modelling fraternity wants, judging by the other points made; so no cause for cynicism, other than innate cynicism about market forces in general.
4. I think the average purchaser has a short memory, or no memory at all when it comes to the RRP history of a model they want, at the point of purchase; it's either at a price they're prepared to pay or it's not.  If they're unprepared to pay the Bachmann price then maybe the Hornby Railroad (piled high and sold cheap, see '2' above) will suit their wallet.  Or perhaps they'll build one from scratch.
5. These stories are filed under 'Business' or ' Economics' rather than 'Fiction,' Drama' or 'Crime.'  Anyway, woe betide a company trying to maximise profits for its shareholders, the intolerant will surely have their way when model manufacturers become full-blown not-for-profit entities, and the taken-for-granted supply of new, ever higher fidelity RTR dries up.  

Edited January 28, 2019 by 'CHARD

[Ouroborus]

 

(My numbering)

1. The entire sector has moved to smaller runs, this is not in any way unique to Bachmann.  
2. The complexity of modern models, with hundreds of individual parts added by hand, is incompatible with bigger runs of sell cheap and pile high.  This doesn't apply to Railroad (Hornby), which is itself the perennial cause of complaint for the high prices charged (what the market will bear).
3. Competition in action - surely this is what the modelling fraternity wants, judging by the other points made; so no cause for cynicism, other than innate cynicism about market forces in general.
4. I think the average purchaser has a short memory, or no memory at all when it comes to the RRP history of a model they want, at the point of purchase; it's either at a price they're prepared to pay or it's not.  If they're unprepared to pay the Bachmann price then maybe the Hornby Railroad (piled high and sold cheap, see '2' above) will suit their wallet.  Or perhaps they'll build one from scratch.
5. These stories are filed under 'Business' or ' Economics' rather than 'Fiction,' Drama' or 'Crime.'  Anyway, woe betide a company trying to maximise profits for its shareholders, the intolerant will surely have their way when model manufacturers become full-blown not-for-profit entities, and the taken-for-granted supply of new, ever higher fidelity RTR dries up.  

 

 

I'm not so sure about (4).  I think people can remember exactly what the purchased something for, even many years on.  I can recall my lms calling me about the Hornby 125 and the Bachmann 4CEP at release because they were going to be £100 and was I sure I wanted them.  Whilst I might now be hazy on whether I paid £60 or £70 for a 66, I know it wasn't £160.  As an aside, I think you massively under-estimate the number of impulse purchases that are made.  No figures for this, but the continuing success of the bargain hunters thread ("something you don't need at a price you can't resist"), would suggest impulse purchases still factor heavily.  But answer me this - if i really wanted an 85, why didn't i buy one years ago when they first came out?  Or in the the re-runs?  Or in the discounts where they were £80, which if i recall were just last year?   Who is left that is going to suck one up at £180??

 

And (5) - I doubt many are against a company making a profit, but when they feel they are being fleeced in order for that company to make a profit, the goodwill goes.  The notable exception to this is perhaps Apple, but toy trains and fashionable lifestyle icons are rather different things.

[bennyboy]

 I would really have expected the Class 85 to have paid off its design and tooling costs now 

 

After a single production run? I seriously doubt that.