Class 85

[Lokomotivfuhrer]

Looking at the pictures posted on the thread of the real things operating in the 80's, how did they turn the electric hauled expresses over at Euston and Glasgow? Was another AC electric backed on at the other end ready to take the next train? It may be a silly question but of course we don't see such things these days!

Basically what Dave and ThaneofFife said is pretty much on the ball.

 

From my time at Central, if the Loco was at the buffer end in No2 for instance, once released, the Driver was permitted to move the Loco LE from No2 to No1 for Stabling purposes, without a Secondman, providing there was a Shunter present - of course more often than not, once the Shunter Coupled-off, they would scarper, and the Driver just shunted the Loco by himself. As Dave said, the Loco might be working the next Train south, and the Shunter would re-appear for to Couple-on.

 

If running LE to Polmadie, then he had to be Double-Manned by a Secondman. Sometimes a change of plan to the Rostered Diagram for the Loco. meant that they would take the Loco Single-Manned.

 

The Glasgow-Eustons tended to be nearly always worked by 87s. The Glasgow-Birminghams nearly always worked by 86/2, as were the Glasgow/Edinburgh-Liverpool/Manchesters. Classes 81-85 had lower ETH Indexes so they were less able to work fully air-conditioned stock (because the ETH Index of the Loco couldnt be lower than the Total of all coaches).

 

I remember for a while 86/0s and 82s were rostered to work the Glasgow-Nottinghams etc, via Carstairs, changing Locos at Carlisle.

 

It was common for 81s and 85s to haul the EmCars in the mornings from Polmadie to Central then sit at the Buffer-End in No2 for ages, waiting for the Departure then release. The it was back to Polmadie for the next set. Plenty sitting about drinking tea and card playing on these jobs. Often the Secondman would put his feet up as well !

 

There was a point in time during the 80s (and I cant remember exactly when) when Classes 81-85 were not allowed to haul fully air-conditioned stock (ie. Mk3) on Passenger Workings. This origlnally came in the form of D-Notice from ScR, (presumably simultaneously in the LMR also), and it was included in the ScR Sectional Appendix, and possibly the Working Manual. Of course they could still haul EMCars.

Edited January 14, 2012 by Lokomotivfuhrer

[westie7]

Commuting from Paisley to Central it was always interesting to see what was parked on the viaduct waiting for its next duty. A sight sore missed

[43078shildoncountydurham]

Anybody know if they ever came over to say thornaby for tyre turning?

Would love 1 but I model northeast in the 80's

Regards

Craig

[298]

Anybody know if they ever came over to say thornaby for tyre turning?

Would love 1 but I model northeast in the 80's

Regards

Craig

 

I very much doubt it, the only AC at Thornaby I can think of was a failed Res 90 in for wheelset attention.

 

Not very common off the WCML at all really, there was an 85 hauled Railfreight exhibition train on the ECML in the late 80's, but thats about it.

[298]

Locomotivfuhrer - Could you describe the procedure for forming Up Motorail trains, especially when the 87 was sandwiched mid train (if you were there then....). Was there also a time when the vans were detatched from down trains at Carstairs, and did the side unloading wagon ever travel there...? Thanks in advance.

[wombatofludham]

I think Bachmann did announce the 2EPB before the 4-CEP hit the shops so assuming they did, they must have known pre-orders were high to do another unit. I don't know how many people have pre-ordered an 85 but they may announce a 2nd electric this year based on the same logic.

 

I did wonder myself if that might happen, especially now Heljan appear to be giving up on their 86, there's room for Bachmann to recycle the 85 bogies and mechanism (and stretch the chassis by 8mm...) to develop an 86 to the same standard. It must now be the most logical development in terms of potential sales, although an 81 would be an alternative punt.

 

I'm hoping Bachmann will go down the path of an 86/0.

[gridwatcher]

 

 

I did wonder myself if that might happen, especially now Heljan appear to be giving up on their 86, there's room for Bachmann to recycle the 85 bogies and mechanism (and stretch the chassis by 8mm...) to develop an 86 to the same standard. It must now be the most logical development in terms of potential sales, although an 81 would be an alternative punt.

 

I'm hoping Bachmann will go down the path of an 86/0.

 

Fanciful! The excellent Heljan chassis will get another run out with 2 front windows...... Bachmann will do 81 and 82 first. Mark my words!

[wombatofludham]

Fanciful! The excellent Heljan chassis will get another run out with 2 front windows...... Bachmann will do 81 and 82 first. Mark my words!

I'm not so sure, Heljan have been reported as saying they are dropping the 86 (not just here but on the AC Preservation site as well), although I do wonder how official that is as it seems to be rather early to kill off the model given how much they spent on tooling up for it. Plus Heljan have a bit of a reputation for ignoring modeller criticisms and re-releasing poorly recieved models like the 33s and 47s with shape defects, so perhaps if Bachmann do well with the 85 and move onto either the 81 or 86 (both of which shared the basic bogie design with the 85, the 82 is I think less likely) we could possibly see them come back.

 

As for Heljan doing an 87, I don't think so. It's not a failed or prototype freak oil burner for one thing, for another it would require new bogies, a new body, new pantograph (not that that is anything to worry about given the model pylon they stuck on the roof of the 86), and given how poorly the 86 was recieved shape wise I think they probably are wary of doing anything else AC unless a shop comes forward to sponsor the development. If they did though, I bet it would end up with EM1 pantographs.

[Michael Delamar]

i think whatever it is, if they get it right and it looks good itll sell

[Michael Delamar]

i think we are lucky that an example of the 81-85 survive so should be a bit easier for the manufactuer to go and measure/scan them.

id love to see them release the 81-84, but lets wait and see the 85 first

[Lokomotivfuhrer]

Locomotivfuhrer - Could you describe the procedure for forming Up Motorail trains, especially when the 87 was sandwiched mid train (if you were there then....). Was there also a time when the vans were detatched from down trains at Carstairs, and did the side unloading wagon ever travel there...? Thanks in advance.

Andy - sorry for going a bit off-topic with this but there is a relevance to the Class 85 which I've highlighted!

 

The Motorail Empty vans were stored at Polmadie CS. They would be brought in to Central early in the day. This was to cater for car owners turning up when it suited them (bear in mind not every major station had Motorail so they had to go to the nearest one) The situation you described was where the Loco - strangely enough usually an 85/81, had worked in a service from the South and the set was put on top of the set at the Buffer End with a "Calling On" Signal. The Loco as you put it, ended between the Vans. When the incoming vehicles were emptied, they were hauled usually by a 27 to Eglinton St. The ones nearer the Buffer end were used for that night service, which would then be worked forward by the Loco you referred to. To my recollection they were never large trains, and were combined with Parcels trains at one point I think.

 

I thiink what you're referring to at Carstairs, is where the Glasgow portion would split from the Perth/Stirling portion. I believe in the early Motorail days 1960s/1970s they ran as independant services rather than splitting at Carstairs. The side door vans you mentioned were used at Central, but they had vans with ramps between them so the cars could be driven from one to another. I kid you not ! (I'm sorry I dont know what the TOPS Code would have been for any of these vehicles - Robert Carroll might know).

Edited January 15, 2012 by Lokomotivfuhrer

[298]

 

I'm not so sure, Heljan have been reported as saying they are dropping the 86 (not just here but on the AC Preservation site as well), although I do wonder how official that is as it seems to be rather early to kill off the model given how much they spent on tooling up for it. Plus Heljan have a bit of a reputation for ignoring modeller criticisms and re-releasing poorly recieved models like the 33s and 47s with shape defects, so perhaps if Bachmann do well with the 85 and move onto either the 81 or 86 (both of which shared the basic bogie design with the 85, the 82 is I think less likely) we could possibly see them come back.

 

As for Heljan doing an 87, I don't think so. It's not a failed or prototype freak....

 

If you're refering to the ACLG forum, that was a re-post by me.

 

I think a Heljan 89 would be a good seller, providing they bother to get it right. I'm sure other manufacturers will be looking at the Bachmann 85's popularity, so I think we'll eventually get an 81 from them, 84 and 86 from Dapol, and brand new 87's and 9's from Hornby.

[keefer]

"The side door vans you mentioned were used at Central, but they had vans with ramps between them so the cars could be driven from one to another"

 

sounds like the train vans would be GUVs - these had folding end doors and drop-down flaps which would provide a 'road' through the train for cars.

 

re: the unloading vans http://www.jhowie.fo...ntralother.html

 

stated as an adapted well wagon, with the rudimentary 'body' presumably to ensure any vehicles are in gauge

Edited January 15, 2012 by keefer

[Sam Moss]

Ordered a Electric Blue one through the 47401 project today, along with MLV. I don't have overhead or third rail.........I'll still run em though.

[jonathan452]

There was a point in time during the 80s (and I cant remember exactly when) when Classes 81-85 were not allowed to haul fully air-conditioned stock (ie. Mk3) on Passenger Workings. This origlnally came in the form of D-Notice from ScR, (presumably simultaneously in the LMR also), and it was included in the ScR Sectional Appendix, and possibly the Working Manual. Of course they could still haul EMCars.

Interesing picture on page 64 of 'West Coast Blue Electrics' (Book Law Publications) dated May 23rd 1987 showing 85023 in the Lune Valley with an Executive liveried Mk3 set (14.10 Glasgow to Euston). No doubt a stand in for the usual Class 87 but I would be interested to know if this working contravened the above mentioned ban?

Edited January 16, 2012 by jonathan452

[298]

Andy - sorry for going a bit off-topic with this but there is a relevance to the Class 85 which I've highlighted!

 

Thanks for the info Mark, the operating procedure I was thinking of was definitely from the early 90's and I believe I read somewhere (Railway Magazine or Rail) that for a time the Motorail vans were detached at Carstairs. Having a vested interest in the station and knowing it's operations, it didn't sound right to me as the only advantage would have been to speed up the shunt at Central upon arrival if the vans were behind the loco.

 

I'm guessing the procedure was:

 

Train arrives at Carstairs, in the Loco-Vans-Coaches formation,

Loco and Vans are detached and run to Central, shunt loco places ramp wagon behind for unloading,

Fresh Train loco couples on and takes coaches to Central.

Shunt loco releases loco from coaches, runs ECS to Polmadie,

Train loco from Carstairs releases ramp wagon and vans from first loco (if all that makes sense).

 

All a bit too complicated really, and my interest only came from wondering whether we could replicate that on our Carstairs layout (although I never did finish the ramp wagon...). We sometimes ran Motorail vans behind the loco in a down express, although I do recall the Furness MRC lads going on ebetter and modelling the full DVT-Coaches-87-Motorail vans formation on Boldon Jn...

[ThaneofFife]

I can certainly see Dapol replicating their excellent N gauge Class 86 into 4mm.

 

Whether Heljan will venture into doing another AC is anyones guess but the remark earlier about the pylon they put on the roof for a pantograph certainly made me chuckle but youre spot on, the pantograph is awful.

 

Not sure about the Class 82 and 84. I would categorize these 2 classes of electric as being must haves only for the real hard core out there that really want models of these and so I cant see them selling in big numbers. They certainly werent famous for hauling mainline express passenger on the WCML. im not sure they are as popular or as desirable a model over the mainstay locos 81, 85, 86 and 87. I think the release of new ACs will be thought out in proportion to how many locos occupied each class hence i placed the 82 and 84 quite low down in ranking against the 25 members of the 81 and 15 members of the 83. I would place the 84 ahead of the 82.

 

my logic may be flawed though as we have had some real bolt out of the blue releases on the diesel prototype front where only 1 or 2 were in each class.

 

As Ben Jones pointed out though in last months Model Rail, all the diesels come 2013 will have been released in 00. This leaves all of the early ACs to be attacked next. We may even see the competition go up against Hornby with 87 and/or 90.........it would be nice.

Edited January 17, 2012 by ThaneofFife

['CHARD]

As Ben Jones pointed out though in last months Model Rail, all the diesels come 2013 will have been released in 00. This leaves all of the early ACs to be attacked next. We may even see the competition go up against Hornby with 87 and/or 90.........it would be nice.

 

ALL the diesels, really? Who's tackling the 41 (43, 252)? Or did I miss something... and I don't mean T** ****.

[kevpeo]

I do recall the Furness MRC lads going one better and modelling the full DVT-Coaches-87-Motorail vans formation on Boldon Jn...

 

We still do now and again on Coppell! My memory is that it was usually an 86 that was sandwiched between the Guv's and coaches. Not that my memorys much good these days! At least the delay to the 85 means my DC kits model of 018 gets one last run out at Liverpool, before donating its B-Beatle's and sound-chip to a Hornby 86! kev.

[Charlie]

ALL the diesels, really? Who's tackling the 41 (43, 252)?

IIRC the quote excluded the one off's, so that's the HST 41 "out" (though Gem or someone do a white metal do a kit I think?) but Dapol are doing the warship 41 for Kernow, some say that the Warship 43 is externally too similar to the 42 to be worthwhile (personally I've no idea).

 

Perhaps the gas turbines like the APT is next

Edited January 18, 2012 by Charlie

['CHARD]

My references to 41 and 43 were to mop-up the alternatives by which people might describe the HST-P.

 

Although there has been discussion of someone revisiting the Swindon/NBL 42/43 too.

[298]

Having just seen the display models at the Leamington show, I think the shade of Electric Blue is spot on.

[Charlie]

My references to 41 and 43 were to mop-up the alternatives by which people might describe the HST-P.

 

Although there has been discussion of someone revisiting the Swindon/NBL 42/43 too.

 

Ah I see. As to the 42/43, whilst the Bachmann model is looking good for it's age, I doubt there'd be too much complaint if it was brought up to modern standards.

[ThaneofFife]

IIRC the quote excluded the one off's, so that's the HST 41 "out" (though Gem or someone do a white metal do a kit I think?) but Dapol are doing the warship 41 for Kernow, some say that the Warship 43 is externally too similar to the 42 to be worthwhile (personally I've no idea).

 

Perhaps the gas turbines like the APT is next

 

yes youre absolutely right. its common sense really. weve a fair few one off diesels yet to go which most people know about anyway but IN THE MAIN all the diesels will be done by 2013 and lets not forget that in the next 12 months we could still see the less common locos be announced anyway.

[ThaneofFife]

Having just seen the display models at the Leamington show, I think the shade of Electric Blue is spot on.

 

thats good to hear.