ianfolland Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 A few pictures, quality less than perfect, but hopefully they'll be of use. M11045, Crewe, 1985 M11028, Milton Keynes, 21 July 1983 RUB M10026, Milton Keynes, 21 July 1983 M12079, Milton Keynes, 21 July 1983 BG (NEA) M91539, Milton Keynes, 21 July 1983 Mk 2f FO M3353, Euston, early 80's Mk 2f FO M3370, Crewe, 1985 Mk 2f FO, M3376, Milton Keynes, 21 July 1983, BG (NHA) M92026, (on the rear of a Banbury-Tenby excursion, all Mk 2e/f FO's, blue/grey, one with "Inter-City Scotrail" branding), Banbury, 11 May 1985 BG (NHA) M92026 FO M11045 Mk 2f FO M3376 I also have pictures of Mk 1 RKB M1567 marshalled between a Mk 2 FO and a Mk 3 TSO (Milton Keynes, September 1982), Mk 1 RBR M1653 marshalled between a Mk 3 FO and a Mk 3 TSO (Milton Keynes, September 1982), and Mk3 TSO M12101 (Milton Keynes September 1982), unfortunately not scanned. Finally, for the record, the interior of BG (NHA) 92026: Ian Since posting this earlier I've come across this thread: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/39042-br-mk33a3b-coaches/ which included this link: http://80srail.zenfolio.com/p520092474 3 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bar Side Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 You can still see mk3 loco hauled on the London - Norwich line every day. We never had blue/grey mk3's, still running mk2's at the time. Not sure if these are massively different from the Virgin formations on the wcml?? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eastwestdivide Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 Bit late to the party, but only just found the photo... By 1988, the WCML Mk3s were escaping to the Devon seaside for a day out on Saturday - at least the buffet is a Mk3 here and possibly the 1st class at the back. Bit hard to tell. Would any blue/grey ones be around that late to justify them on this working? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave47549 Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 (edited) . Edited September 29, 2021 by Dave47549 Removed pointless guff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon_R Posted July 22, 2011 Author Share Posted July 22, 2011 Oh i'm so glad I started this topic. Some beautiful pics. Thanks guys I guess modelling a BFO is essentially a plating out the end windows job? It's not quite a TGS so I guess its a custome job Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium keefer Posted July 22, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 22, 2011 another pic of a BFO: http://80srail.zenfolio.com/p520092474/e6ae915e i suppose a TGS would be the best way of getting the 'door and a third' at the guard's end. you'd have to watch with the windows though - note, from the far end, you have 6 normal saloon windows, then a slightly bigger gap before the 7th window (which is in the guard's office, i think). i'm trying to find a similar pic of the other side, which is the same except there is an 8th window at normal spacing from the 7th window - if you see what i mean the other main things to check might be the ventilation pods at the roof ends and you would need to have buffers and built-in tail lights EDIT: found this page http://www.marstonparkway.org.uk/adapting_stock_20.html the roof vents look the same type as on the HST, i.e. the square cover on the roof centreline EDIT 2: didn't notice the first photo has already been mentioned - sorry! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Natalie Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 (edited) Mk3s were 'escaping' to the West Country from the Summer 1985 timetable I believe. I believe the use of otherwise idle West coast sets to provide holiday services to the West Country has long been a feature of the West Coast coach diagrams. Mk2 sets were also utilised on some of the other workings. I have Summer 1986 at hand and the following operated (there were still some blue/grey Mk3a around at the time- though in decreasing numbers): WB300 Mk2d BSO, 3 Mk3a TSO, Mk3a RFB, 3 Mk3b FO, RKB, Mk3b FO 1V47 2326 FO Manchester Piccadilly- Paignton 1M37 0820 SO Paignton- Manchester Piccadilly WB302 Mk2d BSO, 3 Mk3a TSO, Mk3a RFB, 3 Mk3b FO, RKB, Mk3b FO 5V36 0635 SO Euston DCS- Milton Keynes 1V36 0715 SO Milton Keynes- Penzance 1M82 1540 SO Penzance- Milton Keynes 5M82 2234 SO Milton Keynes- Euston DCS MA300 Mk2d BSO, 3 Mk3a TSO, Mk3a RFB, 3 Mk3b FO, RKB, Mk3b FO 5F49 0700 SO Longsight CS- Liverpool LS 1V49 0840 SO Liverpool LS- Paignton 1M65 1625 SO Paignton- Liverpool LS 5H47 2230 SO Liverpool LS- Longsight CS For the record the usual weekday utilisation of the Mk3 circuits in Summer 1986 was as follows: WB300 Mk2d BSO, 3 Mk3a TSO, Mk3a RFB, 3 Mk3b FO, RKB, Mk3b FO WB302 Mk2d BSO, 3 Mk3a TSO, Mk3a RFB, 3 Mk3b FO, RKB, Mk3b FO These worked the Manchester Pullman between Euston- Manchester Piccadilly WB303 4 Mk3a TSO, Mk3a RFB, 3 Mk3b FO, RBR, NEA WB304 4 Mk3a TSO, Mk3a RFB, 3 Mk3b FO, RBR, NEA These worked the Liverpool Pullman between Euston- Liverpool Lime Street WB305 Mk2d SO, 7 Mk3a TSO, Mk3a RSM, Mk3a FO, Mk3b FO, NEA Worked between Euston and Manchester Piccadilly WB306 Mk2d BSO, 5 Mk2d SO, 2 Mk2d TSO, RBR, Mk3a FO, Mk3b FO, NEA WB307 Mk2d BSO, 5 Mk2d SO, 2 Mk2d TSO, RBR, Mk3a FO, Mk3b FO, NEA Worked between Euston and Liverpool Lime Street WB308 Mk2d BSO, 5 Mk2d TSO, Mk3a RFB, 3 Mk3a FO, NEA WB309 Mk2d BSO, 5 Mk2d TSO, Mk3a RFB, 3 Mk3a FO, NEA Worked between Euston- Blackpool North and Euston- Liverpool Lime Street WB310 Mk2d SO, Mk2d TSO, 5 Mk3a TSO, Mk3a RFB, 2 Mk3b FO, NEA WB311 Mk2d SO, Mk2d TSO, 5 Mk3a TSO, Mk3a RFB, 2 Mk3b FO, NEA Worked between Euston and Manchester Piccadilly WB320 3 Mk3a, Mk3a RFB, Mk3b BFO Worked Glasgow Central portion of Clansman from Euston WB321 NHA, Mk3a FO, 5 Mk3a TSO Worked Inverness portion of Clansman from Euston- alternates with WB324 WB324 NHA, Mk3a FO, 5 Mk3a TSO Worked Inverness portion of Clansman from Euston- alternates with WB321 WB322 6 Mk3a TSO, Mk3a RFB, 2 Mk3a FO, NHA WB323 6 Mk3a TSO, Mk3a RFB, 2 Mk3a FO, NHA WB326 6 Mk3a TSO, Mk3a RFB, 2 Mk3a FO, NHA Worked 110mph services between Ayr/ Glasgow Central and Euston WB328 Mk2d BSO, 5 Mk2d TSO, RKB, 3 Mk3b FO, NEA This worked the Lancashire Pullman between Blackpool North and Euston LL300 4 Mk2d TSO, 3 Mk3a TSO, Mk3a RFB, 3 Mk3a FO, NEA Worked between Liverpool Lime Street and Euston LL301 Mk2d BSO, 7 Mk2d TSO, RBR, 2 Mk3a FO, NEA Worked between Liverpool Lime Street and Euston MA300 Mk2d BSO, 3 Mk3a TSO, Mk3a RFB, 3 Mk3b FO, RKB, Mk3b FO Worked Manchester Pullman services between Manchester Piccadilly- Euston MA301 2 Mk2d TSO, 6 Mk3a TSO, RBR, 2 Mk2d FO, NEA Worked services between Manchester Piccadilly- Euston MA302 Mk2d TSO, 5 Mk3a TSO, Mk3a RSM, 2 Mk3a FO, NEA Worked services between Manchester Piccadilly- Euston CL300 Mk2d BSO, Mk2d SO, 4 Mk2d TSO, 3 Mk3a TSO, RBR, 2 Mk3a FO, NEA CL301 Mk2d BSO, Mk2d SO, 4 Mk2d TSO, 3 Mk3a TSO, RBR, 2 Mk3a FO, NEA Worked between Barrow/Carlisle - Euston CL320 6 Mk3a TSO, Mk3a RFB, 2 Mk3a FO, NHA CL321 6 Mk3a TSO, Mk3a RFB, 2 Mk3a FO, NHA CL322 6 Mk3a TSO, Mk3a RFB, 2 Mk3a FO, NHA Worked 110mph services between Carlisle/Glasgow Central- Euston As can be seen there is considerable variety in the formations diagrammed in these booked diagrams including mixed Mk2/3 sets- especially on the Liverpool circuits where there was an apparent restriction placed on some of the services being formed of a maximum of 12 coaches with no more than 6 to be Mk3 vehicles- not sure why this was but a few of the circuits broke this by having 7 Mk3 vehicles allocated- possibly they were reduced to 6 in reality. Note that Euston and Oxley had no Mk3 sets nor were any Mk3 sets diagrammed to work to Birmingham or Wolverhampton- except on a Sunday when WB309 was diagrammed to work a return Euston- Wolverhampton trip prior to working Euston- Manchester. No Mk3 sets were diagrammed to run along the North Wales Coast either. Full details of the circuits mentioned above (as well as the Mk 1, Mk2 and Mk3 Sleeper sets involved in WCML London trains during Summer 1986) are available for download from Robert Carroll's excellent 'British Railways Coaching Stock' yahoo group. Edited March 13, 2021 by Natalie 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Gwiwer Posted July 23, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 23, 2011 Platform length at Liverpool Lime Street might have been a constraint. Given that a Mk3 is 23m long and a Mk2 around 21m too many of the former might have placed the train outside signal limits. For every six Mk2 coaches only five Mk3 were needed as replacements since fewer coaches gave the same capacity. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjkerr Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 I guess modelling a BFO is essentially a plating out the end windows job? It's not quite a TGS so I guess its a custome job I have converted an N gauge Mark 3 (INTERCITY livery TGS) into a Mark 3B BFO http://www.woodhurst.webspace.virginmedia.com/vinyls_17173_mark_3b_bfo_intercity_livery.html Scroll to the bottom and you will see the difference at the guards end Also the vinyls are not correct, but very close (there is a First Class 1 missing) I plan to replace the final photo eventually, the article was put together very quickly Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjkerr Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 WB320 3 Mk3a, Mk3a RFB, Mk3a FO, Mk3b BFO Worked Glasgow Central portion of Clansman from Euston This is slightly incorrect, and also appears in your article, and have never found any method to advise you of this There never was any additional Mk3a FO in this formation : 3 Mk3a TSO - M3a RFM - Mk3b BFO 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Natalie Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 This is slightly incorrect, and also appears in your article, and have never found any method to advise you of this There never was any additional Mk3a FO in this formation : 3 Mk3a TSO - M3a RFM - Mk3b BFO My article is based on the London Midland Carriage Working Programme for Summer 1986 as issued and that is how the formation is listed. I do not know if the formation was subsequently altered as I do not have any of the amendments. On what basis do you make your claim if I may ask? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bomag Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 This is slightly incorrect, and also appears in your article, and have never found any method to advise you of this There never was any additional Mk3a FO in this formation : 3 Mk3a TSO - M3a RFM - Mk3b BFO As far as I remember there was a FO between the RFB and BFO when I used the Clansman, although this was later in its Mk3 incarnation. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjkerr Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 My article is based on the London Midland Carriage Working Programme for Summer 1986 as issued and that is how the formation is listed. I do not know if the formation was subsequently altered as I do not have any of the amendments. On what basis do you make your claim if I may ask? I saw this almost every day in Glasgow Central whilst it operated It was unusual in being the only Euston service with no Mk3 FO (either 3a or 3b) The only time it did use one Mk3 FO was when the BFO was not available, and this did occur a few times, in which case there was an additional NHA I also made the trip several times to Motherwell in order to see the Inverness portion, and that appears to be correct, also with just one Mk3 FO (either 3a or 3b) 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon_R Posted July 25, 2011 Author Share Posted July 25, 2011 Take 2 coaches. 1 x TGS and 1 x FO. Cut the guards area out of the tgs including the 1 passenger window, cutting as close to the next frame as possible Cut the end two windows out of the one side of the FO leaving as much frame as possible Insert section of TGS into FO side and trim guards end to fit. File, sand, paint and glaze Should about do it Thats assuming the other side is just windows as per a normal FO? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mackenzie546 Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 On 25/07/2011 at 20:23, Simon_R said: Take 2 coaches. 1 x TGS and 1 x FO. Cut the guards area out of the tgs including the 1 passenger window, cutting as close to the next frame as possible Cut the end two windows out of the one side of the FO leaving as much frame as possible Insert section of TGS into FO side and trim guards end to fit. File, sand, paint and glaze Should about do it Thats assuming the other side is just windows as per a normal FO? the windows on both sides are spaced apart from the others but the window on one side is missing Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
anroar53 Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 A short video clip of my 1970s based layout, picture quality a bit off, still getting used to the camera, from my own recollections when the Mk3s first arrived on the West Coast. (2nd Train in on the clip) 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
D826 Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 What a superb layout. That glimpse reminds me of seeing trains on the WCML from the old A41 near Tring circa 1977- 84. Great work there. Matt W 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nova Scotian Posted February 20, 2021 Share Posted February 20, 2021 Now this thread has been resurrected... I have distinct memories of cross-country services on intercity swallow liveried 47s from Reading to Birmingham New Street. However, I think I've spliced these memories together with mk3 rolling stock on other trips east and west from Reading (HST hauled). Were the 47s (intercity) ever pulling mk3a coaching stock? Or was it Mk2fs? By the time Virgin was running the line I'm certain they were Mk2fs, right? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken.W Posted February 20, 2021 Share Posted February 20, 2021 I certainly never saw LH Mk3s on cross-country services from Newcastle, they went straight from Mk2s to HST. By the time that surplus LH Mk3s were available from the WCML cross country wouid have already been HSTs or even Voyagers 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibbo675 Posted February 20, 2021 Share Posted February 20, 2021 Hi Folks, Something that hasn't been mentioned is the use of Motorail GUV's fitted with commonwealth bogies in the late 1980's and early 1990's on the WCML. The GUV's were marshalled between the locomotive and the train on the north bound and with the locomotive between the train and the vans on the southbound. From memory the sets were usually made up Mk3 DVT, 2X Mk3 first, Mk buffet/restaurant, 5X Mk3 second, loco, 2X GUV. Gibbo. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nova Scotian Posted February 20, 2021 Share Posted February 20, 2021 15 minutes ago, Ken.W said: I certainly never saw LH Mk3s on cross-country services from Newcastle, they went straight from Mk2s to HST. By the time that surplus LH Mk3s were available from the WCML cross country wouid have already been HSTs or even Voyagers There was a time in the 90s when there was cross-country services from Paddington through Reading to Birmingham New Street - I can't remember if they went on to Newcastle/Glasgow/others though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flood Posted February 20, 2021 Share Posted February 20, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Nova Scotian said: Now this thread has been resurrected... I have distinct memories of cross-country services on intercity swallow liveried 47s from Reading to Birmingham New Street. However, I think I've spliced these memories together with mk3 rolling stock on other trips east and west from Reading (HST hauled). Were the 47s (intercity) ever pulling mk3a coaching stock? Or was it Mk2fs? By the time Virgin was running the line I'm certain they were Mk2fs, right? Mk2e and Mk2f stock on the Cross-Country trains. The Mk3a stock was solely used on the West Coast route apart from a Summer Saturday diagram to Penzance in 1987 which changed to terminate at Paignton in 1988. Edited February 20, 2021 by Flood 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nova Scotian Posted February 20, 2021 Share Posted February 20, 2021 1 minute ago, Flood said: Mk2e and Mk2f stock on the Cross-Country trains. The Mk3a stock was predominantly used on the West Coast route but there was a Summer Saturday diagram to Penzance in 1987 which changed to terminate at Paignton in 1988 Thank you very much - I wish I could deal better with my constructed/combined memories - useful to have RMWEB to put me straight. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flood Posted February 20, 2021 Share Posted February 20, 2021 Just one clarification, my knowledge only extends to about 1996 at best. I don't have any knowledge of the use of Mk3a stock after privatisation but my 2001 Coaching Stock Pocket Book does have all the Mk3a/b stock as Virgin West Coast. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisH-UK Posted February 21, 2021 Share Posted February 21, 2021 (edited) 12 hours ago, Gibbo675 said: Hi Folks, Something that hasn't been mentioned is the use of Motorail GUV's fitted with commonwealth bogies in the late 1980's and early 1990's on the WCML. The GUV's were marshalled between the locomotive and the train on the north bound and with the locomotive between the train and the vans on the southbound. From memory the sets were usually made up Mk3 DVT, 2X Mk3 first, Mk buffet/restaurant, 5X Mk3 second, loco, 2X GUV. Gibbo. Additional info Some of the Motorail GUVS had B5 bogies, and until 1991 any southbound service with a DVT on were conventionally hauled with the loco attached to the DVT. After this the northbound service had the vans attached to the DVT Edited February 21, 2021 by ChrisH-UK Hit enter too soon 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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