Weekday Cross Posted July 14, 2011 Author Share Posted July 14, 2011 I like Tipton as a subject to model because of the link with the canals as well as the railway. It was thinking of modelling an interchange basin on the BCN that got me interested in model railways again. It would be nice to get a compound or two on there though, maybe I need to find a date when the Trent Valley line was closed for engineering work and model diverted trains. . I'll have a look at the loco service area at Manchester though, something like that, or a loco shed would be a good model to put the locos on as I build them and would be something I could work on while I wait for my house movbe to progress. (I could probably model the whole of the LNWR system before that happens if things carry on as they are ) I don't fancy Manchester London Road as a layout though, I have no idea how I would work the bizarre goods yards for one thing, if the contemporary OS maps are accurate. Natalie, By all means stick to what you like - the comment about Manchester London Road was aimed at a wider audience. The way to model the LNWR loco facility at MLR is to ignore the main station altogether - a bit like I am doing for Lime Street. - see below... The track layout seems to have varied quite a bit over time. This is from a 1938 OS map. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Donw Posted July 16, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 16, 2011 When Ken Payne built a Teutonic in 0 he used a delrin toothed belt to connect the two wheels together. Perhaps some sort of belt drive could be used in 2mm the odd bit of slipping could be quite realistic. Regarding the choice of split axles. It was chosen because it seemed the best choice with what was available and the skills of users. It had the advantage of not needing pick ups which can act like brakes in 2mm. Those with the skills can choose their own methods. Regarding shorts occuring I have an 0 gauge Bulldog done of the loco one side tender the other pickup. Which can cause problem with shorts running tender first as the loco body is live to one side. Don Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weekday Cross Posted July 18, 2011 Author Share Posted July 18, 2011 Following all the encouragement, this project is going ahead - though only when I can spare time from my Liverpool Lime Street diorama, which is being built to a tight deadline - and all my other commitments! I feel a bit like someone being urged to jump off a cliff by enthusiastic onlookers, but the journey should be interesting, whether I land with a crash or not On reflection there obviously are easier locos to tackle - but I kind of landed myself in it, so I can't complain. At least I won't have to build a long rake of coaches to go behind her. I will let you know how I get on - and no doubt ask a lot of questions along the way. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Natalie Graham Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 There's a photo of a Problem 2-2-2 on the turntable in 1900 in Edward Talbot's The London & North Western Railway, A 150th anniversary tribute to the 'Premier Line' so once you've finished the James Hick ... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weekday Cross Posted July 19, 2011 Author Share Posted July 19, 2011 There's a photo of a Problem 2-2-2 on the turntable in 1900 in Edward Talbot's The London & North Western Railway, A 150th anniversary tribute to the 'Premier Line' so once you've finished the James Hick ... Yes thanks - I had forgotten about the "Problems"!. I found a beautiful photo of one HERE on the web a month or so back, at the head of a train in one of the platforms at Lime Street. Just look at those vintage carriages! Although it is highly hypothetical at the moment, "Cornwall" would be my next favourite - but I guess a "Problem" would be easier as I would then not have to fabricate 8ft 6in drivers. Let's prove I can build the first one though - if I can cope with that then I guess I will have the bravado to try anything....? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weekday Cross Posted July 26, 2011 Author Share Posted July 26, 2011 OK, I'm thinking of starting this project by building the tender first - all air between the wheels, with no thick plate frames to hide things that shouldn't be there. The LNWR would have to do things differently! I am just wondering how to mount the wheels. Has anyone converted Association bogie/tender wheels to run with outside bearings? Wagon or coach wheels would be no good, as the wheel diameter required is 3ft 9in. Alternatively, maybe I could hold inside bearings in very slender, inconspicuous U-shaped mounts, attached to the underside of the floor? Even the highly-recommended Simpson-style phosphor-bronze wires bearing on the axles would clearly be seen. Maybe I should try some form of compensation instead? The photo is of a tender attached to an "Experiment" class loco, by the way - not a "John Hick", so the body is slightly narrower than the one I am building. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Natalie Graham Posted July 26, 2011 Share Posted July 26, 2011 It might be worth considering a rigid rear axle and a free bogie for the front two axles to allow the tender to add weight to the loco, if you intend putting the motor in the loco. That way you could put weight in the front part of the boiler and balance it with the tender. If you go for that then you could put the 'w-irons' on the bogie along with the axleboxes and split off the springs and fit them to the tender frames. Are the axles seperate from the wheels on the association tender wheels? If so it should be easy to fit extended axles, if not I think you are going to need to do some very accurate drilling. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigelcliffe Posted July 27, 2011 Share Posted July 27, 2011 Association tender and loco wheels have integral axles; they are finished from a one-piece casting which includes the axle. The manufacturing sequence is: first fit the rim (using axle casting for holding wheel), second turn the axle to diameter and length (holding wheel by rim in accurate collet chuck). If planning to modify locomotive wheels, for example fitting extended axles, its usually easier and a lot cheaper to start from the raw castings (or possibly a casting with rim fitted but before the axle is finished). Discuss your requirement for castings as a special order with Jim the chief shop keeper. As well as the financial saving, it is madness to have the volunteer wheel manufacturing team assemble a set of wheels only to have the end user undo most of the work in their modifications. - Nigel Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Natalie Graham Posted July 27, 2011 Share Posted July 27, 2011 If you have an accurate lathe then converting to extended axles would be simple. Thinking about how I could do it with the tools I have the best method I can think of would be to set the vertical drill up nice and securely and fix a flat metal plate on the table. Then drill a 1.5mm hole in this and sit the wheel with the axle in this hole and lightly drill a centring mark in the face of the axle. Then carefully, so as not to move anything, change the drill to a 1mm one and drill out the axle to accomodate half a pinpoint axle. Hopefully the wheels would still be true on the pin point, but even if there were some failures these would still be useable for inside bearings. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weekday Cross Posted July 27, 2011 Author Share Posted July 27, 2011 Thanks, Natalie and Nigel. Rest assured, I will not do anything too mad, Nigel! Thinking about things overnight, then outside axle boxes would effectively limit me to a rigid wheelbase. Current wisdom seems to be to have a bit of flexibility. Therefore, I am inclined to use inside bearings, but make them as inconspicuous as possible. It makes a lot of sense to try and use the 2mm wheels as is, rather than just the castings. I will have to try a few little experiments to see what looks and works best. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
richbrummitt Posted July 27, 2011 Share Posted July 27, 2011 If planning to modify locomotive wheels, for example fitting extended axles, its usually easier and a lot cheaper to start from the raw castings (or possibly a casting with rim fitted but before the axle is finished). I had always assumed that the easiest way to do this would be to hold the axle in a collet and centre drill in the lathe before adding an extension piece in. I haven't even got as far as starting the locomotives that I would like that have cranks outside the double frames but hopefully the day will come. Back on topic I'll be interested to observe the method and outcome of the forming of the flare on the top of the tender. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weekday Cross Posted July 27, 2011 Author Share Posted July 27, 2011 Back on topic I'll be interested to observe the method and outcome of the forming of the flare on the top of the tender. So will I You have reminded me that problems with this sort of thing in the past made me wonder if I had the flare (sorry, flair) for it I am tempted to make some kind of former - that way, I will find it easier to make more if I develop a taste for more Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
richbrummitt Posted July 27, 2011 Share Posted July 27, 2011 There is a method described in '4mm Locomotive Construction' or 'More 4mm Engines' I don't recall which about forming this type of flare as it occurs on GWR tenders too. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigelcliffe Posted July 27, 2011 Share Posted July 27, 2011 I had always assumed that the easiest way to do this would be to hold the axle in a collet and centre drill in the lathe before adding an extension piece in. I haven't even got as far as starting the locomotives that I would like that have cranks outside the double frames but hopefully the day will come. Yes but... the way wheels are assembled is: chuck on axle casting, turn outer diameter to suit rim fit rim chuck on rim, turn axle to diameter. Now, if planning to drill out for extended axles, it would be easier to start before the third step. Chuck on the unfinished axle (as used to fit the rim), bore through for your new axle (one piece of metal), then turn the wheel round and face off at the rear of the wheel. The new axle would be either a piece of 1mm round bar, or (better) a round with a small collar on it to push the wheel against to ensure it is perpendicular to the axle. All the above assumes an accurate collet chuck, or a split collet, etc.. Almost all 3-jaw chucks won't be able to ensure accurate centering of the work. - Nigel Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weekday Cross Posted July 27, 2011 Author Share Posted July 27, 2011 There is a method described in '4mm Locomotive Construction' or 'More 4mm Engines' I don't recall which about forming this type of flare as it occurs on GWR tenders too. You have got my fingers itching to have a go - maybe this evening, when I have finished scribing the cobbles on my turntable well. Strictly experimental though B) The more I think about the wheels, the more I want to go for minimalist inside bearings and supporting structure - maybe hold the bearings in wire loops, or something similar. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 2mm Dabbler Posted July 27, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 27, 2011 Regarding modifying the wheels for outside frames this might be of use: FS160 tender construction Early locomotives can be fascinating, particularly those of somewhat eccentric engineering. Regards Michael Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertiedog Posted July 27, 2011 Share Posted July 27, 2011 Yes but... the way wheels are assembled is: chuck on axle casting, turn outer diameter to suit rim fit rim chuck on rim, turn axle to diameter. Now, if planning to drill out for extended axles, it would be easier to start before the third step. Chuck on the unfinished axle (as used to fit the rim), bore through for your new axle (one piece of metal), then turn the wheel round and face off at the rear of the wheel. The new axle would be either a piece of 1mm round bar, or (better) a round with a small collar on it to push the wheel against to ensure it is perpendicular to the axle. All the above assumes an accurate collet chuck, or a split collet, etc.. Almost all 3-jaw chucks won't be able to ensure accurate centering of the work. - Nigel There is another vital reason not to use 3 jaw, let alone the accuracy, as most wheels tyres will physically be crushed by the chuck grip, resulting in a triangular tyre, only slight, but detectable with a dial gauge, with OO wheels it can be about 5-6 thou distortion.....does not happen with collets, but can happen with square distortion with a four jaw chuck. The effect, at worst, is to make the running noisy!!! with bad power pickup as well on a rigid chassis. Stephen. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weekday Cross Posted July 27, 2011 Author Share Posted July 27, 2011 As promised, I have been experimenting this evening with flares on tenders. I cut 2 pieces out of tin plate - one the height of the tender body and one with the flare on top. I soldered these together with the flare standing proud.. I then put the assembly in a vice with a round-topped bar and tapped the flare round into a curve very gently with a hammer. Then, I bent the 2 rear corners of the tender body. This left the flare slightly pear-shaped in the corners, but intact elsewhere. To put the corners right I put the body upside down on the top of the vice and gently hammered the whole tender downwards until the flare was more or less in place. Photos are below. I must emphasis that this was a very rough trial. The corners should really be to a tighter radius, for example. Overall though, I am very pleased that I got something reasonably presentable first time. With practice, and a jig to get the corners square and to the right radius, I think it would be more than acceptable The discolouration on the sides is from the wood I soldered the 2 bits together on, by the way. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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