Raffles Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 Following a suggestion from PCM recently, I thought it would be useful to have a reference point for the many variations in the Large Logo Blue livery. I guess the first place to start is what should be considered the standard application of the livery, more often than not as applied by Crewe Works during overhaul/ETH conversion. Any input into this is gratefully received - use of images to place in the thread would be very helpful. Right then, lets get started: "Standard" LL Blue As stated above, the best examples of this version can be found in pictures of the ETH and early twin-tank conversions (47638-47665). Numbers were positioned at number one end and bufferbeams, bogies and battery boxes/fuel tanks were all black. Handrails were painted white and all of these locos were fitted with orange cantrail strips as part of the livery application. Loco data panels were positioned adjacent to the drivers door, toward the bottom of the bodyside. Some examples: 47660 - Gateshead 18/04/87 47654 - Crewe Works 16/08/86 47651 - Hull 07/87 47646 - Preston 29/05/86 Earlier examples from 47629-47636 did not have the orange cantrail strip applied as part of the repaint, this being added later. Anomalies 47641 and 47647's numbers were placed much nearer to No.1 end cab due the positioning of their nameplates. 47647 - Crewe 29/05/86 47641 - Crewe Works 15/03/86 Exceptions 47637/642/643 did not receive LL Blue, instead they were adorned with variations of the InterCity Executive colour scheme with ScotRail branding. Queries As yet, I have not found any photographic evidence for 47640 and 47644, the earliest photos show that they had been got at by Eastfield already... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raffles Posted July 16, 2011 Author Share Posted July 16, 2011 Variation No.1 - Thinner Black Surrounds This variation is not that common and very subtle - in fact, the only difference between this and "standard" LL Blue is with the Black window surrounds. ON these locos, the black surround only goes as far as the window frames themselves. Pictures say it better - locos so adorned include 47580, 47592, 47603 and 47616. 47603 - Birmingham New Street 47580 - Leeds 12/04/88 47592 - Crewe - 29/04/93 47616 - Doncaster 11/01/89 Of these four, 47580 was later ehanced with the standard SF Black headcode panel. I believe (but am yet to get confirmation) that the common link here is Doncaster as this type of black surround can also be found on 47522's Apple Green livery and 97561's MIdland Counties maroon. 47532 also exhibits this style of variation but the numbers were placed behind the drivers cab door on both sides, as opposed to being at No.1 end on both sides. 47545 (latterly 97545) carried a variant of 47532's large logo style but with yet another difference: - The roof was painted Executive Dark Grey, not Rail Grey Lastly, for now, 47120/464/517/541/550/583/586/604 also feature thinner black surrounds but with the other variations that they display, they'll appear elsewhere in the list. I should point out that this information is not an exhaustive list, merely a selection of examples that anyone else is free to add to. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raffles Posted July 16, 2011 Author Share Posted July 16, 2011 Variation No.2 - Black Window Frames Very much a SF variation - only the window frames themselves were painted black. This variation can be seen on such locos as: 47291/572/574/581/582/585 The SF repaints appear to have used slightly smaller digits than the standard version. The variation also appeared later on a small number of 47/8s - 47819/820/828 EDIT: The more I think about this, the more I think it should be on a spreadsheet... it's a horrendous task Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Re6/6 11683 Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 Variation No.1 - Thinner Black Surrounds This variation is not that common and very subtle - in fact, the only difference between this and "standard" LL Blue is with the Black window surrounds. ON these locos, the black surround only goes as far as the window frames themselves. Pictures say it better - locos so adorned include 47580, 47592, 47603 and 47616. 47603 - Birmingham New Street 47580 - Leeds 12/04/88 47592 - Crewe - 29/04/93 47616 - Doncaster 11/01/89 Of these four, 47580 was later ehanced with the standard SF Black headcode panel. I believe (but am yet to get confirmation) that the common link here is Doncaster as this type of black surround can also be found on 47522's Apple Green livery and 97561's MIdland Counties maroon. 47532 also exhibits this style of variation but the numbers were placed behind the drivers cab door on both sides, as opposed to being at No.1 end on both sides. 47545 (latterly 97545) carried a variant of 47532's large logo style but with yet another difference: - The roof was painted Executive Dark Grey, not Rail Grey Lastly, for now, 47120/464/517/541/550/583/586/604 also feature this element but with the other variations that they display, they'll appear elsewhere in the list. I should point out that this information is not an exhaustive list, merely a selection of examples that anyone else is free to add to. Hi there, Interesting topic this one. Just to add my pennies worth, I wondered if Stratford were perhaps the first to apply the thinner black 'mask' on 47s (pictures of 583 on Brushtype4.co.uk show it in 1983) with the practice then continued by Inverness for their c1985 repaints. I also wondered about the early 80s repaints of locomotives like 47711 but it seems the application of black was more 'standard': http://www.brushtype4.co.uk/bt4_zoom_v2.php?img=0998051007211 http://www.brushtype4.co.uk/bt4_zoom_v2.php?img=0376020470010 http://www.brushtype4.co.uk/bt4_zoom_v2.php?img=0588020169000 However, a further variation can be seen where the black 'touches' the roof guttering between the cab windscreens in the second and third pictures. 47118, 460, 461 & 467 can also be added to the list of being treated with the thinner black style. 467 seen here: http://www.brushtype4.co.uk/bt4_zoom_v2.php?img=0961000306000 And 118 here: http://www.brushtype4.co.uk/bt4_zoom_v2.php?img=0522051030210 47461 only carried large logo for a very short time before having the Executive livery (with red stripe) applied. Pictures of 461 in large logo are rare, but I saw examples on the old fotopic site with number clearly visible. Apologies if I have misunderstood, but I think that the roofs on the likes of 120, 464, 467, 550 etc. were actually rail blue and not Executive Dark Grey. I researched this for my 7mm model of 47467, and had the fotopic site still existed I could have attached some clear examples. However, looking closely at the attached picture of 550, you can just see the blue 'peeping through' in places: http://www.brushtype4.co.uk/bt4_zoom_v2.php?img=0492051329211 460 originally carried a more standard large-logo: http://www.brushtype4.co.uk/bt4_zoom_v2.php?img=0934000363000 However, it seemed to have the thinner black paint job around the windows applied at a later date (I guess that it kept the light grey roof beneath the dirt): http://www.brushtype4.co.uk/bt4_zoom_v2.php?img=0492051137211 47546 also had the thinner black mask applied, but seems to have gone from what appears to be a blue roof to grey sometime in 1985: http://www.brushtype4.co.uk/bt4_zoom_v2.php?img=1151051690211 http://www.brushtype4.co.uk/bt4_zoom_v2.php?img=1179051051211 Is it just me, or do the numbers on 464, 467, 550 etc. look slightly 'smaller' than standard??!! 47467 was repainted into a more standard large logo livery (Glasgow 1988??) with 'curvey 7s' applied: http://www.brushtype4.co.uk/bt4_zoom_v2.php?img=0522051190211 As I mentioned, interesting topic. Please feel free to correct/ update anything. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raffles Posted July 17, 2011 Author Share Posted July 17, 2011 Thanks for that, very helpful. 47711 and 47712 are interesting - as you've pointed out they initially appeared in what we're calling "standard" LL blue (albeit without an orange strip) but they later received individual modifications. 47711's surrounds did originally meet just below the cab rainstrip but they were changed to a more normal version during 1983 and 47712's surrounds (which started off normal) were altered so that they ran up to the rainstrip all the way around. Photos suggest that 712 was done by March 1983. I wasn't very clear earlier about 118 etc... I was talking about window surrounds but '545's dark grey roof confused matters - I have edited the original post. '467's later version, I believe, was done by Springburn as they applied the same version to 47569 but with black cab door window surrounds and red bufferbeams. '467 later received black headcode panels in what I like to refer to as a "Tyne Yard" style. A nice chap who works there claimed to be the one that kept painting black headcodes but leaving the marker light frames yellow. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.C.M Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 Hi Matt, Just found this thread and the one with pics, I will add some of mine if you like. Great stuff very useful. Cheers Peter. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raffles Posted July 23, 2011 Author Share Posted July 23, 2011 Hello Peter, All assistance is gratefully received, you crack on. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DerekEm8 Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 Another odd-ball was 47578 it had a black painted flush end. (This was discussed on a previous RMWeb) I presume it unlikely that it was retrofitted with a recessed end. York 140282 Queen Street 03 88 Edit Just noticed the other thread on Cab Fronts Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbg06003 Posted August 15, 2011 Share Posted August 15, 2011 Derek, Another view of 578 to add to yours http://brucegalloway.zenfolio.com/p851046045/h3b51e6d5#h3b51e6d5 One point worthy of note is the truely awful double arrow logo! Some pics of 467 http://brucegalloway.zenfolio.com/p957843737/h18e0004e#h18e0004e http://brucegalloway.zenfolio.com/p851046045/h3b51e6d5#h2ba7c4ed http://brucegalloway.zenfolio.com/p957843737/h18e0004e#h1c43ad48 Evens it's logo looks a bit dodgy! Bruce Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DerekEm8 Posted August 15, 2011 Share Posted August 15, 2011 Bruce, Some more of 467. It seemed to visit Manchester once a year. Man Picc July 185 Man Vic June 1986 (after a bogie swap at Crewe ?) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium brushman47544 Posted August 24, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 24, 2011 Another odd-ball was 47578 it had a black painted flush end. (This was discussed on a previous RMWeb) I presume it unlikely that it was retrofitted with a recessed end. Hi all, In the case of 47578, there are plenty of photos in RES livery still with a flush No.2 end. But there are cases. 47522 was at one time flush both ends, but then had another prang and the replacement cab has a recessed panel. Was 47578 unique amongst the Scottish ETH 47s in having the holding bracket for the ETH jumper cable above the buffer beam removed on both ends? As far as I recall, most if not all the others (including 47467 above) retained the brackets when the ETH jumper was repositioned. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raffles Posted August 24, 2011 Author Share Posted August 24, 2011 47522 got the No.2 end cab from burnt out 47645 I've had a quick trawl and noted that 47461 lost the bracket at No.1 end (the flush end) and 47550 lost it's bracket at No.2 end but retained the recessed panel so I should think you're right - 47578 was unique. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DerekEm8 Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 Bruce, Some more of 467. It seemed to visit Manchester once a year. Man Vic July 185 Man Picc June 1986 (after a bogie swap at Crewe ?) I have been trying to edit (to correct the locations on this post) since the software upgrade, with no success. So - The July 1985 shot is obviously at Man Picc and the June 1986 shot is at Man Vic. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raffles Posted September 3, 2011 Author Share Posted September 3, 2011 All done Derek. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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