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Guest jonte

Hi

 

I'm in the closing stages of constructing my first C&L turnout kit, the one which provides the switch blades and vee crossing/wing rails preformed, and just have the check rails to fit.

 

My problem is that I can't get the roller gauges to grab the rail head anywere in the region of the adjacent wingrails, which pretty much renders them useless. However, I've noticed that the notches on the gauges appear to be equidistant, therefore, I was wondering whether I could place a an offcut of rail parallel to the outside of eachstock rail so that one of the flate ends of the gauges protrudes over the stockrail. Surely than, bearing in mind that the notches are equal, I should be able to then lay the check rails against the ends of the gauges. Only thing is, I'm aware from having digested the contents of the NMRA standards website, that the the check rail should be set using the crossing vee as the reference, not the adjacent stock rail.

 

Has anybody encountered this problem, and if so, do they know of a solution?

 

I hope this makes sense and that I haven't confused any of you trying to follow this.

 

 

Best wishes and many thanks in anticipation.

 

Jonte

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Normally you have separate check rail gauges and also a gauge that has a flat on the one side of the gauging turning to allow it to butt up to the crossing nose. You can probably cut a bit off the one side of one of your gauges to make one of the latter.

 

You might be able to do what your suggesting but its too late at night for me to comprehend it without pictures atm :unsure: ..

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Rather than having the roller gauges across the four foot, you can turn them round so they are only on the out leg of the turnout and the check rail. This isn't ideal and you have to take great care to make sure the roller gauge(s) is/are level so the flangeway is the correct dimension. If you have someone at home who can provide a third and forth hand it maybe easier. You set up the gauges and they apply a bit of solvent to the chairs while you hold the gauges steady.

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Guest jonte

Rather than having the roller gauges across the four foot, you can turn them round so they are only on the out leg of the turnout and the check rail. This isn't ideal and you have to take great care to make sure the roller gauge(s) is/are level so the flangeway is the correct dimension. If you have someone at home who can provide a third and forth hand it maybe easier. You set up the gauges and they apply a bit of solvent to the chairs while you hold the gauges steady.

 

Hi James

 

Thanks for your input; it is sincerely appreciated. Apologies for the delay but the internet seems to have been u/s most of the day.

 

Never mind, I think your solution is pretty much what I had in mind (sorry if any of the above confused you!!), so took the opportunity to have a bash. Here's the photo to clarify:

 

post-4524-0-83816100-1311019031_thumb.jpg

 

As you can see, I placed a sleeper lengthways alongside the point and then slid a couple of chairs onto an offcut of rail to raise it to the same height as the stock rail - as I think you were advising, James - then put the roller gauges in place so that the end grabbed the head of the check rail. Looking at the gaiges, the notches are equidistant so this should have been okay. To cut a long story short, it wasn't !!!!

 

The wheels ride up onto the check rail one side and then mount the rail of the vee on the other :angry:

 

Now, I could remove the check rail and vee and try again, but from experience it seldom improves matters and unlike strong soldered joints on PCB, the plastic sleepers are already weakening despite having been as dexterous a surgeon with my scalpel.

 

In other words, it's time to put into the spares box and choose plan B. OO SF appeals, however, don't fancy shelling out for more roller gauges just yet. I still have these roller gauges, I suppose, and some rail and PCB of an appropriate size together with templates so perhaps it's worth having a bash at some scratchbuilt jobs. Frankly, I'm not convinced about the suitability of 'OO' scale for scale trackwork, especially when due consideration is given to varying back to backs and BTFs. Also wasn't too happy with the blase attitude of the manufacturer when enquiring about this situation. Our idea was suggested, as well as Craig's, but another suggestion was just to find a piece of material of suitable thickness to act as a flangeway. Even I know that check rails have to be sited using the vee as a datum. Unfortunately, I think the individual answering the phone was rather handfistedly trying to reassure me when he summed things up by saying, "well, it's only double O". When one considers the price paid for the item and that I desire smooth running as much, if not more, than good looks, I don't think that's good enough. I'm sure that a lot of customers have enjoyed an excellent service from the manufacturer over the years and continue to do so. I doubt, however, I shall darken their door again.

 

Now, where's Hattons website.......I think I need to place an urgent order for several Peco points and matching track work ;)

 

Thanks again James - hope I haven't bent your ear!!

 

Jonte

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Guest jonte

Normally you have separate check rail gauges and also a gauge that has a flat on the one side of the gauging turning to allow it to butt up to the crossing nose. You can probably cut a bit off the one side of one of your gauges to make one of the latter.

 

You might be able to do what your suggesting but its too late at night for me to comprehend it without pictures atm :unsure: ..

 

Hi Craigwelsh and thanks for your input.

 

I think we were thinking along the same lines. Please see my photo and explanation in previous post to James. Apologies for any confusion caused.

 

Best wishes,

 

Jonte

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The picture helps.

 

Your wing rails don't look equidistant from the vee?

 

I start with the 'straight route' stock rail

Then gauge the vee off that using a normal gauge at the one end and a gauge with part of the outer lip filed flat at the tip as its wider than a rail head.

Next a flangeway gauge is put in the gap between vee and wing rail and roller gauges used to gauge the other part of this rail (closure) off the relevant stock rail. Flangeway gauge is basically a slice of metal, its 0.68mm in P4 and probably something like 1.2mm in coarse 00 and 1mm in finer?

 

The checkrail gauges I have are like a normal gauge but narrower, they'd gauge from the closure rails to just the check rail. What you've attempted wont set the checkrail correctly off the vee, its probably done the equivelent of using plastic check rail chairs which set off the adjacent stock rail and not the vee. You should be able to gauge off the closure rail though at the lower end of the check rail using the shorter setting on your jig.

 

Checkrail and normal gauge

post-174-0-06890600-1311042859_thumb.jpg

 

Large roller gauge to test against, flangeway gauge. nose gauge which acutally sets the wing rails off the opposite stock rail not a gauge to setup the nose, i've got a normal gauge with a flat filed on it for that somewhere..

post-174-0-41207400-1311042924_thumb.jpg

 

00-SF should give you better running and a good set of standards to work to.

 

I think my point is guilty of something Brian Harrap mentioned elsewhere recently - the knuckles of the two wing rails should be opposite one another on a line draw down the centre of the crossing vee for best results. I think your and my diverging route are in fact nearer the vee.

 

Don't give up on this one yet, a sharp scalpel should release the chairs and allow you another attempt. You can always use it a catch point too if the other route is fine..

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First check the gauges you are using not sure in 00 but in 0 gauge they do the normal 32mm one plus a 31mm one and a scale 7 one get them mixed and you are in trouble.

Secondly I use a flangeway gauge to set up the wingrails I normall set up the crossing nose and the windrails together in a jig with small strips of brass to fix them.

Thirdly I have found that pressing gauges against the rails can distort the chairs slightly remove the gauge and it springs back may only be 0.1mm but can be trouble.

I found that the crossing could move in the chairs and placed a brass screw under the crossing and soldered the crossing nose onto this to hold it still.

I use the flangeway gauge (a strip of the correct thickness metal) to set the checkrails - should really be a checkrail gauge but it all else is correct this works for me. If a point is well made the checkrails are a belt and braces job stopping the odd wheel set hitting the crossing nose.

Don't give up easily when I built my first point and found it difficult a well known modeller exhibiting at expo-em confessed he had built five before getting it right. Once you get the hang of it you be glad

Don

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Guest jonte

Craig and Don

 

I thank each of you for your most educational and comprehensive replies. You're both very kind to have gone to so much trouble on my behalf.

 

First of all, Craig, you're right. The wingrails are NOT equidistant which is why the wheel kept striking the knuckle area of the wingrail on the straight ahead route even before I set the check rail in place. The presence of check rail merely aggravated the situation. I realised for certain something was seriously amiss when I sited the closure rail on the straight ahead: the wingrail is offset slightly at the point at which they meet. Now, I know this can't be down to any inexperience or oversight on my part as I was most careful to ensure that straight stock rail was just that before I even started to lay the vee, the straight rail being used to site the vee using the gauges provided in the kit. The same gauges and the straight stock rail were also used to site the closure rail, so as you see, there has to be a fault with the crossing area - and as you know, this was factory prepared as I was prepared to pay extra to ensure smooth running. Wouldn't mind but obtained better performance in the past using home made gauges and a set of dimensions from the internet, which is why I'm so annoyed. The solution really gentlemen, is to box up the whole darned lot and send it back to the manufacturer and have it replaced with one fit for purpose. Plus, I think that the instructions should be a whole lot clearer on how to site the check rail and an appropriate flangeway gauge provided to ensure that the corect tolerances are met so that it works first time every time. For a total sum of £43.00 including postage, packing and a £3.00 bottle of Butanone, I don't think it too much to ask. I might yet, but my query yesterday didn't generate too much enthusiasm as mentioned in my last post, so I think I might have to put it down to experience.

 

Best wishes,

 

Jonte

 

BTW the diverging road is fine.

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People have been buying C+L kits for years so I don't think they'll have gone down the pan that quickly after an ownership change.. Apart from the vee you essentially have a group of rails two of which will have a bend in. With respect it has to be the assembly of these bits that makes or breaks the successful build here.

 

I believe the fix is to move the whole wing rail on the straight route closer up and to the left on the picture as I can see it. Having a flangeway gauge would have helped here as you would note the gap is too wide next to the tip of the vee. You can make one out of some 1mm plastic probably but for the purposes of fixing this just cut off the chairs on the splay part of the wing rail and slide it up in the remaining chairs closer to the vee.

 

On the turnout I pictured above you can see I haven't fitted the check rail yet on the one route but with the board slightly angled away from the vee stock will always run through it fine. Always worth checking before fitting check rails and fixing that bit first.

 

The method of building a crossing assembly Don mentioned is illustrated here http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/40507-turnout-construction/

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Guest jonte

People have been buying C+L kits for years so I don't think they'll have gone down the pan that quickly after an ownership change.. Apart from the vee you essentially have a group of rails two of which will have a bend in. With respect it has to be the assembly of these bits that makes or breaks the successful build here.

 

I believe the fix is to move the whole wing rail on the straight route closer up and to the left on the picture as I can see it. Having a flangeway gauge would have helped here as you would note the gap is too wide next to the tip of the vee. You can make one out of some 1mm plastic probably but for the purposes of fixing this just cut off the chairs on the splay part of the wing rail and slide it up in the remaining chairs closer to the vee.

 

On the turnout I pictured above you can see I haven't fitted the check rail yet on the one route but with the board slightly angled away from the vee stock will always run through it fine. Always worth checking before fitting check rails and fixing that bit first.

 

The method of building a crossing assembly Don mentioned is illustrated here http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/40507-turnout-construction/

 

Thank you again, Craig.

 

Have decided to put it away until tomorrow and approach it with a clear head. I shalll give some serious consideration to your instructions.

 

Best wishes,

 

Jonte

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post-8525-0-30122100-1311146785_thumb.jpg

 

This is the jig I made for assembiling the crossing and wingrail assembly. Just a few panel pins in a block of wood but using some scraps of brass etch allowed me to set up the assembly and solder up waving a hot iron around well away from the plastic where chairs could not be fitted i.e between the two fixing straps I cut then and glued around the rail. Having now resumed 2mfs I find they have available excellent jigs for various angles. Still the pins in a scrpa of wood does make it easy to do special angles.

Don

post-8525-0-30122100-1311146785_thumb.jpg

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Guest jonte

post-8525-0-30122100-1311146785_thumb.jpg

 

This is the jig I made for assembiling the crossing and wingrail assembly. Just a few panel pins in a block of wood but using some scraps of brass etch allowed me to set up the assembly and solder up waving a hot iron around well away from the plastic where chairs could not be fitted i.e between the two fixing straps I cut then and glued around the rail. Having now resumed 2mfs I find they have available excellent jigs for various angles. Still the pins in a scrpa of wood does make it easy to do special angles.

Don

 

Gosh, Don. You make it look so easy!!!

 

I have to say I admire your work. Wonderful.

 

Thanks, Jonte

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I've only just clicked you have bought in a complete 'common crossing' after reading the Peco thread, i'd assumed you had a separate vee and wing rails.

 

You can now legitimately have a moan to C+L about those flangeway clearances as they do look very asymmetrical :).

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Hi Jonte. Believe me, I understand fully your frustrations, have a look at my trackbuilding thread in the groups section of this forum :D I should have entitled it 'how to pull your hair out'!

I found the C and L plastic sleeper/chair route a bit tricky. A few very kind members have supplied some fantastic information and help, the first thing I did was to decide on a new standard (oo sf), which immediately looks better than standard oo, with its finer tolerances. It has the benefit of not needing any wheels changed on your stock, maybe just the odd rogue wheelset changing.

I am also going to have a go at copperclad construction, it dosen't look quite as good as plastic chairs and sleepers, but, and it's a big but for me, its very robust, and more importantly, offers very easy adjustment if something needs a bit of fettling.

I am a fine one to say this as I nearly gave up, but try and persevere. handbuilt looks so much better, and even with my 1st couple of ham fisted attempts, it runs so much better than the coarser Peco stuff.

Have a look at the group, feel frre to send me a private message if there is anything I can help you with, one trackbuilding novice to another :lol:

 

Regards,

 

 

 

Lee.

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Guest jonte

Hi Jonte. Believe me, I understand fully your frustrations, have a look at my trackbuilding thread in the groups section of this forum :D I should have entitled it 'how to pull your hair out'!

I found the C and L plastic sleeper/chair route a bit tricky. A few very kind members have supplied some fantastic information and help, the first thing I did was to decide on a new standard (oo sf), which immediately looks better than standard oo, with its finer tolerances. It has the benefit of not needing any wheels changed on your stock, maybe just the odd rogue wheelset changing.

I am also going to have a go at copperclad construction, it dosen't look quite as good as plastic chairs and sleepers, but, and it's a big but for me, its very robust, and more importantly, offers very easy adjustment if something needs a bit of fettling.

I am a fine one to say this as I nearly gave up, but try and persevere. handbuilt looks so much better, and even with my 1st couple of ham fisted attempts, it runs so much better than the coarser Peco stuff.

Have a look at the group, feel frre to send me a private message if there is anything I can help you with, one trackbuilding novice to another :lol:

 

Regards,

 

 

 

Lee.

 

Your post is most reassuring, Lee, thank you. Nice to know it's not just me!

 

I shall enjoy reading your thread now I know we're in the same boat.

 

Incidentally, thanks for the offer of further advice re OO-SF. Very kind. To cut a long story short, I became curious after another 'Dark Side' contributor mentioned it, so fired off an email to the society and very promptly received a full and informative reply from a Mr. Brian Tulley. I'm pleased to report that I'm now a little more enlightened about it all than I was. As you say, it's definitely worth considering if your staying with 'OO' gauge. Nice to know that a flangeway gauge is also included in the set of roller gauges, so it's obviously apparent that the point will function properly. Manufacturers, take note!

 

I'm going to leave my options open at pesent, Lee, however, I did enjoy building track with solder - very robust as you say - so I think it most likely that if I do, it'll be with OO-SF. Perhaps, I'll take you up your kind offer of advice some time. I'm now reinspired :D

 

Best wishes,

 

Jonte

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Guest jonte

Fantastic. Brian is a very nice chap, and has helped me through the maze of standards.

Feel free to ask anytime.

All the best,

Lee.

 

Most kind, Lee, thank you. BTW, having read through your thread on the Templot page, I can honestly say I empathise and sympathise!!!!!

 

Most importantly, it's enthused me enough to have a bash, so..................(sharp intake of breath) over the next couple of days or so, I'm going to reconnect the soldering iron, open the bottle of flux, cut several lengths of PCB and offcuts of rail and together with a generous sprinkling of blind enthusiasm, attempt to form the whole darned lot into something vaguely resembling a 1:6 point to OO-SF standards. Armed with the dimensions given, I shall use calipers as a gauge and an offcut of something or other with a thickness of 1mm to act as a flangeway, we'll see how I fare.

 

To this end, may I therefore ask you/Craig/Don/anyone, is there a critical distance from the sharp end of the vee to the point where the knuckles of each wing rail meet?

 

Or, is it simply a case of build the vee, secure it to the sleepers; form the wingrails, place flangeway gauges either side of vee, place wingrails tight up aginst flangeways, then adjust, using flangeways as a straight edge to ensure that each wingrail is directly in line with its respective vee rail i.e. straight ahead or diverging rail of vee, then MOST IMPORTANT: ensure knuckles are directly opposite each other, then secure.

 

Am I on the right track, or as I say, is there a critical distance from the end of the vee to the knuckles?

 

Once I know, I can join in the fun :unsure:

 

Best wishes,

 

Jonte

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Am I on the right track, or as I say, is there a critical distance from the end of the vee to the knuckles?

 

Jonte

That measurement is incidental not measured.

 

The wing rail is formed to a 1:x bend to match the crossing vee.

The lower part of the wing rail is gauged off the relevant stock rail

The upper part of the vee before it splays out is separated from the vee by the flangeway gauge I showed.

If both parts are gauged correctly and it was bent properly the knuckle will be in the right place.

Remember the knuckle is formed by a pair of curves NOT sharp bends!

 

There will probably be a little bit of play and I agree with what Brian wrote about getting the knuckles opposite each other on a line through the vee centreline. http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/37678-handbuilt-track/page__view__findpost__p__441936

 

The thread above plus the below from Templot show great ways of making a vee properly too if you don't have a filing jig.

http://www.templot.com/forum/view_topic.php?id=359&forum_id=1

 

Make sure the end of your vee is blunt btw, the 'sharp' point is a theoretical one as its rounded off on model and prototype. http://85a.co.uk/forum/view_topic.php?id=854&forum_id=1

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Hiya. And well done for getting back onto the trackwork bandwagon!

I would urge you to get the correct gauges asap, it will just make life so much easier. Just give Brian T of this forum a shout, he will help you out. The important thing I learnt, was the actual distance from the tip of the v to the bend in the knuckle is not too important. What is, is the flangeway gap between the v and the wing rails. That is why its so important to have the correct 1mm gauge to set this.

If you think about it, the wider this gap is, the more the wheel has the opportunity to drop into the gap.

I learnt to make sure this runs well before introducing the checkrails.

Setting the checkrail is also very important. It must be gauged from the opposite running rail, not the adjacent stock rail.

It all sounds so complicated as I write it, but its just a case of being careful.

A picture paints a thousand words as they say, I find Iain Rices finescale track book a really useful reference. If it would be helpful, I could scan some of the diagrams and email them to you this evening if I get the chance.

Happy trackbuilding!

Regards,

Lee

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If you think about it, the wider this gap is, the more the wheel has the opportunity to drop into the gap.

That depends on the wheel..

 

Track standards need a corresponding wheel standard with a minimum tyre width. A P4 wheel is too narrow for 1mm flangeways for example but you can have massive flangeways if you use the old fashioned 'steamroller' wheels.

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That is one of the advantages of having a "NMRA" for North American modellers - defined, agreed specifications, standards and conformance from a central organization. The NMRA is certainly not perfect though but in this area it is a boon.

 

Best, Pete.

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Guest jonte

That measurement is incidental not measured.

 

The wing rail is formed to a 1:x bend to match the crossing vee.

The lower part of the wing rail is gauged off the relevant stock rail

The upper part of the vee before it splays out is separated from the vee by the flangeway gauge I showed.

If both parts are gauged correctly and it was bent properly the knuckle will be in the right place.

Remember the knuckle is formed by a pair of curves NOT sharp bends!

 

There will probably be a little bit of play and I agree with what Brian wrote about getting the knuckles opposite each other on a line through the vee centreline. http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/37678-handbuilt-track/page__view__findpost__p__441936

 

The thread above plus the below from Templot show great ways of making a vee properly too if you don't have a filing jig.

http://www.templot.com/forum/view_topic.php?id=359&forum_id=1

 

Make sure the end of your vee is blunt btw, the 'sharp' point is a theoretical one as its rounded off on model and prototype. http://85a.co.uk/forum/view_topic.php?id=854&forum_id=1

 

 

That's crystal clear, Craig, thank you.

 

Many thanks for the extra advice too.

 

I'm all set!!!!

 

Best wishes,

 

Jonte

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Guest jonte

Hiya. And well done for getting back onto the trackwork bandwagon!

I would urge you to get the correct gauges asap, it will just make life so much easier. Just give Brian T of this forum a shout, he will help you out. The important thing I learnt, was the actual distance from the tip of the v to the bend in the knuckle is not too important. What is, is the flangeway gap between the v and the wing rails. That is why its so important to have the correct 1mm gauge to set this.

If you think about it, the wider this gap is, the more the wheel has the opportunity to drop into the gap.

I learnt to make sure this runs well before introducing the checkrails.

Setting the checkrail is also very important. It must be gauged from the opposite running rail, not the adjacent stock rail.

It all sounds so complicated as I write it, but its just a case of being careful.

A picture paints a thousand words as they say, I find Iain Rices finescale track book a really useful reference. If it would be helpful, I could scan some of the diagrams and email them to you this evening if I get the chance.

Happy trackbuilding!

Regards,

Lee

 

I have to give you, Craig and Don the credit fior that!

 

Thanks for the very generous offer of diagrams etc., however, I own a copy of Mr. Rice's finescale rail construction which was a real bonus when I was building my recent 'HO' gauge turnouts, so I'm quite familiar with most of the procedures - just found one or two more good ones on here !!

 

With regard to the guages, you're quite right of course, however, I just want to get a feel for things again at the moment before splashing out. As Pete ((Trisonic) will hopefully confirm from my brief venture into 'HO' modelling, I didn't too badly just using calipers and an offcut of an aluminium door plate that just happened to be of the correct width for a flangeway - using dimensions from the NMRA website as Pete points out- so prepared to give it a go this time too. In any case, if it doesn't all go according to plan, I shaln't be too concerned as it won't have cost me a bean as they say, unlike the king's ransom I paid for the (ahum!) other :(

 

Best wishes and thanks again,

 

Jonte

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Guest jonte

That is one of the advantages of having a "NMRA" for North American modellers - defined, agreed specifications, standards and conformance from a central organization. The NMRA is certainly not perfect though but in this area it is a boon.

 

Best, Pete.

 

 

Hear, hear!!!!

 

Hope and trust you're well, Pete.

 

Best wishes,

Jonte

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In any case, if it doesn't all go according to plan, I shaln't be too concerned as it won't have cost me a bean as they say, unlike the king's ransom I paid for the (ahum!) other :(

 

Best wishes and thanks again,

Jonte

I'd put your calipers in both of the flangeways of that supplied crossing and send the picture to C+L asking for a new one if they are as out as they look.

 

The C+L kits aren't as good as the newer Exactoscale ones for the same price but then the Exactoscale ones are P4 only..

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