RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted August 21, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 21, 2011 Well, the photograph that I keep going on about has a capstan mounted on a plinth next to the Creamery siding by the point thats roughly at the centre of the siding, so this was my first thought, as I mentioned when I first started this topic. However, I'm reliably informed by Paul Mays (bike2steam) who's asked someone that worked there that they man handled the tankers along the siding using pinch-bars. This 'begs the question', what was the capstan for ?. I wonder if rope haulage was originally planned, but then abandoned ? Quite possible of course that once upon a time the capstan was used but it broke and they couldn't be bothered to fix it or they found problems using it and stopped bothering as they found the job could just as conveniently be done with pinchbars. (The S&D Appendix is completely silent on the sidings so no help from it.) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Nevard Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 I private source says that there was a Sentinel there a bit like the Dapol one, was was painted up like a milk float in orange and white.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Combe Martin Posted August 21, 2011 Author Share Posted August 21, 2011 Simple answer - in the modelled world the creamery obviously owned its own little shunting loco, a Sentinel would be ideal I reckon The problem with this is that the Creamery Siding was one longish siding only. If the dairy had it's own shunter there would need to be it's own refuge siding where it could hide and be serviced, coaled etc. Ok, this could be 'hidden' but the access to this (ie a branch off to one side) would be somewhere visible, and it didn't exist. Also, the Creamery Siding was double ended. The arrival/departure end had a pit between the rails at one point, though I dont know how long this was and it's purpose. I was guessing that it was for flushing out tankers before re-use. The other end (the kick back) is where I'm guessing that the tankers were loaded. Full tankers of Whey also used to come in, but I dont know at the moment which end unloaded them. What I'm getting at is that there could be a number of tankers at both ends of the siding at the same time and doing different things, and it wasn't a case of all tankers in and out together. Pictures only ever show 1 or 2 tankers attached to a train arriving or departing at one time, but far more than that in the Creamery Siding. So moving the tankers up and down manually was far more flexible for the dairy, afterall, where on the siding would you position the shunter for the same flexibility ?. At one end or the other ?, in the middle to the left of the point or to the right of it ?. The access to the siding was in the middle. Whilst having a little industrial private shunter is an attractive idea, I'm not sure it would have worked here. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Combe Martin Posted August 21, 2011 Author Share Posted August 21, 2011 I private source says that there was a Sentinel there a bit like the Dapol one, was was painted up like a milk float in orange and white.... Oh yes, and it's name was 'Buttercup'. Did Unigate use that colour scheme in the early '60s ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bike2steam Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 Tankers always arrived from and departed in the 'up' direction, ie from/to the left on the map. They were usually marshalled at the front of an arriving train and the rear of a departing train. An arriving loco would have uncoupled from it's train leaving it in the down platform, run forward, and then shunted back along Down Siding No 2 to the Creamery Siding, and pulled out any departing tankers, shunting them into the siding immediately behind the down platform for collection by a later up train. Having emptied this half of the Creamery Siding, the loco would then shunt back to its train still in the down platform, couple to the tankers (which would now be uncoupled from the rest of the train), haul them forward, then propell them back into the now emptied left hand (north west) end of the Creamery Siding. The majority of the traffic into Bailey Gate 'cheese factory' wasn't those tagged on the back of local passenger trains, but specific tanker trains run down from Templecombe which would consist of the required tankers plus one van on short trains, or two on longer. These trains were the only non-passenger trains run on a Summer Saturdays, as well as those running with all the other freight Monday to Friday.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Combe Martin Posted August 21, 2011 Author Share Posted August 21, 2011 The majority of the traffic into Bailey Gate 'cheese factory' wasn't those tagged on the back of local passenger trains, but specific tanker trains run down from Templecombe which would consist of the required tankers plus one van on short trains, or two on longer. These trains were the only non-passenger trains run on a Summer Saturdays, as well as those running with all the other freight Monday to Friday.. Trying to find out exactly which services carried tankers to and from Bailey Gate has been difficult, especially those 'in'. I don't suppose you have the timings of these ?. I have found some photo evidence of other services sometimes carrying milk tankers to BG, the early morning down freight to Poole, the afternoon down Bailey Gate 'milky', and Peter Smiths book mentions the Saturday 9.03pm down off Templecombe, but the sidings there always seem to have far more tankers than these few. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Enterprisingwestern Posted August 22, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 22, 2011 To combine prototypical and practical modelling operations, why not use the capstan? It must have been put there for a reason, so just assume it didn't fall out of use. There was a belting little capstan centred layout at the members day, (sorry, can't remember the name, despite being drawn back to it many times.), it makes for a very interesting modus operandi. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Combe Martin Posted August 22, 2011 Author Share Posted August 22, 2011 Quite possible of course that once upon a time the capstan was used but it broke and they couldn't be bothered to fix it or they found problems using it and stopped bothering as they found the job could just as conveniently be done with pinchbars. (The S&D Appendix is completely silent on the sidings so no help from it.) I've just found a reference to this in the book by Bill Coomer 'History of the Somerset & Dorset Railway Wimborne Junction to Blandford St. Mary 1860-1966'. On page 88 is the quote 'Alongside the United Dairies Siding there was a winch and capstan for manually moving the wagons to where they were required'. So, there we have it. But it must have just fallen into disuse, I wonder when. The picture has no sign of the winch, though it is dated 1969. (photos of Bason Bridge on the Highbridge branch also show capstans). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted August 22, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 22, 2011 I've just found a reference to this in the book by Bill Coomer 'History of the Somerset & Dorset Railway Wimborne Junction to Blandford St. Mary 1860-1966'. On page 88 is the quote 'Alongside the United Dairies Siding there was a winch and capstan for manually moving the wagons to where they were required'. So, there we have it. But it must have just fallen into disuse, I wonder when. The picture has no sign of the winch, though it is dated 1969. (photos of Bason Bridge on the Highbridge branch also show capstans). There must have been capstans in use somewhere on the S&DJtR as the Appendix contains the relevant Instructions but they of course don't say anything about the locations and there's nothing about them in the Bason Bridge Local instructions. The dairy's capstan would have been a matter for them as it was - so I understand - a private siding. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Combe Martin Posted August 22, 2011 Author Share Posted August 22, 2011 The dairy's capstan would have been a matter for them as it was - so I understand - a private siding. Yes, I've always assumed The Creamery Siding next to the Dairy (cheese factory) belonged to them, which is why it wasn't on the signaling diagram. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Combe Martin Posted August 22, 2011 Author Share Posted August 22, 2011 To combine prototypical and practical modelling operations, why not use the capstan? It must have been put there for a reason, so just assume it didn't fall out of use. There was a belting little capstan centred layout at the members day, (sorry, can't remember the name, despite being drawn back to it many times.), it makes for a very interesting modus operandi. I must admit, this idea does appeal to me, though it would of course need the 12 inch to the foot scale fingers to attach the rope or chain to the capstan and tanker, then it would pull the model tanker(s) all of about 18 inches. I'm beginning to wonder though whether they used both methods for moving the tankers, ie: if they just wanted to move one tanker for a wagons length to where they wanted it next then they used the pinch-bars, but if they were moving 2 or 3 full tankers from the 'filing end' (my description) to the arrivals/departure end then they hauled them using a winch and capstans. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bike2steam Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 On a summer saturday the engine diagram for the ' full milk' was Templecombe TC45, usually diagrammed for an Ivatt tank in the last 10 years, but could be anything from a pannier to a standard 4. Light ( following the 7.35am Nottingham to Bomo) from Templecombe shed at 2pm in the afternoon to BG, arrive at 2.50, return would leave BG at 4.45, booked to get to Templecombe upper yard at 6.07. Return empties would leave Templecombe Upper Yard at 10.28pm hauled by a Z 0-8-0 (TCB65) to the lower yard where a standard 4 4-6-0 worked on to BG ( under Branksome working BK72). For moving wagons around the 'Cheese factory' pinch-bars were quicker than setting up the capstan. Usually some sidings weren't on signalling diagrams that weren't track circuited. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
49395 Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 There was a belting little capstan centred layout at the members day, (sorry, can't remember the name, despite being drawn back to it many times.), it makes for a very interesting modus operandi. Thanks, flattery indeed! There's a link to my layout thread in my signature, I drew the line at a powered capstan though. I thought the trouble would be getting the 'rope' to grip the capstan properly and let go when you wanted it to stop. The capstan itself shouldn't be a problem, a casting like I used and a decent motor and gearbox (I considered a 108:1 and a mashima) Or if you have a parallel track and no obstructions you could shunt with a chain or shunting pole (you'd need a suitable pocket on the loco and a baulk of timber for the latter though) Cheers Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium tingleytim Posted August 23, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 23, 2011 Six page article about Bailey Gate milk traffic by Brian Macdermott and Peter Smith in The S&D Telegraph No. 38 (SDRHT mag) which arrived through my letter box today. It doesn't answer the creamery siding propulsion question originally posed but has plenty of other interesting stuff. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Combe Martin Posted August 24, 2011 Author Share Posted August 24, 2011 Six page article about Bailey Gate milk traffic by Brian Macdermott and Peter Smith in The S&D Telegraph No. 38 (SDRHT mag) which arrived through my letter box today. It doesn't answer the creamery siding propulsion question originally posed but has plenty of other interesting stuff. Yes, got it, thanks. The 'fellow S&D fan' mentioned that prompted it was me ! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Combe Martin Posted August 25, 2011 Author Share Posted August 25, 2011 Return empties would leave Templecombe Upper Yard at 10.28pm hauled by a Z 0-8-0 (TCB65) to the lower yard where a standard 4 4-6-0 worked on to BG ( under Branksome working BK72). The 'Z' left Templecombe at the end of 1958. I'm modelling the S&D mainly in the '60s up to '64, did this train still run in say 1961 ?, and when did it stop.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Combe Martin Posted September 1, 2011 Author Share Posted September 1, 2011 Return empties would leave Templecombe Upper Yard at 10.28pm hauled by a Z 0-8-0 (TCB65) to the lower yard where a standard 4 4-6-0 worked on to BG ( under Branksome working BK72). The 'Z' left Templecombe at the end of 1958. I'm modelling the S&D mainly in the '60s up to '64, did this train still run in say 1961 ?, and when did it stop.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted September 1, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 1, 2011 I'm really glad that some useful info is now coming to light on this thread, because it represents for me the classic "if only" subject. 30 years ago my immediate boss was Gerry Kitchenham, then Operating Officer of the South Eastern Division, but a former station master at Bailey Gate. Sadly he enjoyed indifferent health in his later years, and RailNews recorded his death in the mid-90s, I think. As I say "if only"! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bike2steam Posted September 1, 2011 Share Posted September 1, 2011 The 'Z' left Templecombe at the end of 1958. I'm modelling the S&D mainly in the '60s up to '64, did this train still run in say 1961 ?, and when did it stop.. Your right, but anything allocated at Templecombe, or suitably availabe, could be found as shunter/pilot in the upper yard after the Z left, the movement of the tankers from Upper to Lower yard was part of the Upper yard's shunter's tasks, up untill the closure of the line, the most common classes used on the Lower Yard to BG section being 5700 panniers, Ivatt 2-6-2T's & Standard 4 4-6-0's. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Blandford1969 Posted September 1, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 1, 2011 Not directly related to the cremery siding, but have you seen the drawings of the main building on the S&D trust gallery on Bailey Gate. The signal box is currently being worked on? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Combe Martin Posted September 1, 2011 Author Share Posted September 1, 2011 Not directly related to the cremery siding, but have you seen the drawings of the main building on the S&D trust gallery on Bailey Gate. The signal box is currently being worked on? I have indeed thankyou very much. In fact I was wondering how I was going to build the station building, because all the published photos so far of Bailey Gate station have shown the other 3 sides, but none ever of the car park side. Now I not only have a drawing of all 4 sides, but also a car park side photo too. Again with the signal box, I've only ever seen one decent photo so far in the first 'Sabotaged & Defeated' book, but now there's a south east side photo ( the first ever ? ) with the drawings to come. Things are looking up ! One other thing, does anyone know how long the platforms were, and their widths ?. So far I've had to try and estimate the widths from photos. And what about other dimentions of the whole station and yard area ?. I was down there on holiday a few months ago and spent some time pacing out the area (afterall, there are some dairy buildings left to measure from, and there's the road). I did get a few odd looks though, some strange bod looking down at his feet as he walked taking very deliberate steps and talking (counting) to himself ! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted September 1, 2011 Share Posted September 1, 2011 ...And what about other dimentions of the whole station and yard area ?... There are plans in both Judge & Potts, An Historical Survey of the Somerset & Dorset Railway, Track Layouts and Illustrations and Vic Mitchell & Keith Smith, Bournemouth to Evercreech Junction. Both predate the creamery sidings, but perhaps the station and yard didn't change much. Have you tried the old maps site? Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Combe Martin Posted September 1, 2011 Author Share Posted September 1, 2011 There are plans in both Judge & Potts, An Historical Survey of the Somerset & Dorset Railway, Track Layouts and Illustrations and Vic Mitchell & Keith Smith, Bournemouth to Evercreech Junction. Both predate the creamery sidings, but perhaps the station and yard didn't change much. Have you tried the old maps site? Nick Well the dimensions I'm looking for won't have changed, but these arn't shown anywhere, and the map in Bournemouth to Evercreech Junction is 1928 and very out of date compared to the post 1955 layout. I know the correct track layout for the '60s, its dimensions I want. The 1963 map on the 'Old Maps' site dosn't show enough track or other railway detail. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted September 1, 2011 Share Posted September 1, 2011 The plan in Judge & Potts does have a scale, so maybe you could take some useful measurements off that? Do you have the book? Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Combe Martin Posted September 1, 2011 Author Share Posted September 1, 2011 The plan in Judge & Potts does have a scale, so maybe you could take some useful measurements off that? Do you have the book? Nick That is just about the only S&D book I havn't got, it's the big blue one isn't it ? What date is the Bailey Gate map ?. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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