Heljan Beyer garratt

[Roy P]

Direction light why?

it's not a Diesel.

You will still have to move the head lamps.

 

OzzyO

 

I suspect that this http://www.ehattons.com/StockDetail.aspx?SID=42908 may have been mis read. What should refer to "light weathering" appears to have been chopped and reads "light". As I say this is my supposition but I await confirmation that a Garratt was fitted with a "Big Bertha" headlamp.

RP

[Mallard60022]

The only reason I can come up with for having one of these beasts is that I lived in Wellingborough for four years. Or, can I come up with some imaginative excuse for having one in EM (imagine having to reauge that lot) on George Street Goods (which is really a transition//blue diesel DCC Sound layout )?

Maybe I'll take some counselling instead to calm me down and some hypnotherapy to change my thinking.

P @ 36E (yes I was at 15A for a while too)

[The Stationmaster]

I suspect that this http://www.ehattons.....aspx?SID=42908 may have been mis read. What should refer to "light weathering" appears to have been chopped and reads "light". As I say this is my supposition but I await confirmation that a Garratt was fitted with a "Big Bertha" headlamp.

RP

 

'A Garratt' was indeed fitted with an electric headlamp in 1952 and it was tried, for a second time, on banking duties on the Lickey (I don't know if the lamp was the same style as Big Bertha's as it was fitted at a different works. Mind you I'm talking about the 6 cylinder Garratt by then numbered 69999 and not one of the under-bearing'd ex LMS locos.

[gordon s]

Basically you can't, it must use two decoders or a twin motor decoder responding to different address. In DC the units are in effect wired in parallel, and on board wiring would normally cross connect the two locos.

 

It would work fine, the slight differences in speed would be overcome by the wheels friction with the track.

 

The same condition would apply to parallel wiring being fed by a single decoder, but two motors on a single decoder gives problems with back EMF detection chips, and the load would be high on a basic chip, requiring a heavy duty one.

 

So the best is one decoder per loco chassis, and use the settings to equate to double headed running.

 

 

As I said earlier, my Eureka AD60 has two motors and as far as I'm aware just the one QSI sound decoder and runs perfectly. I'll take a look tomorrow and see if I can identify the decoder that is fitted. With any luck we may be able to determine if it is two circuits on one chip or one single circuit controlling both motors.

[bertiedog]

The 7mm diesel modellers have been running two motored diesels with one decoder for years with no ill effects.

 

It's absolutely nothing to do with "ill effects" it will work fine, usually even if the the back EMF is left engaged, but with the EMF detection active two motors "may" cause "hunting" and "rhythmic beats" between the two motors, as one provides back emf and the other does not, this causes the output to be adjusted for both motors ,when only one may be generating the signal.

 

This is very un-predictable, it sometimes affects operation, some times does not. It is unlikely to show so much on diesels, there is less mechanical drag on the gears and motors than a steam model, with heavier wheels and valve gear drag.

 

Two motors on a non back emf decoder, or one with it turned off, will work as long as the motors are simular, and loads on them are the same. The coupling is the rail surface friction, and any minor differences are suppressed, more than with the back EMF engaged.

 

With two decoders, it pays in two ways, each decoder handles less power,and you can drive it as a double header, with realistic slip effects if you want! Both could be back EMF types with the system active, or two plain decoders, it would not make much difference. The DCC system allows for driving double headed, and it would be the most realist way to power a Garrett on DCC.

 

Stephen.

[bertiedog]

Making it clearer, one decoder will work 100% with two motors, but

• One decoder with Back EMf might cause "hunting", unsteady speed under load. One ordinary or turned off decoder will work fine
• Two decoders could be used , with or without Back EMF, there will be no hunting at all,

Stephen.

[bertiedog]

And being practical, whatever Heljan fit in the way of sockets they can be re-wired in moments for dual decoders or single or sound etc., space should not be an issue at all, I will probably leave mine DC anyway, I have some DCC but it does not improve operation that much, and sound has to improve before getting more into it. Just glad that two morotrs are being used and not a diesel style double drive.

One thing....... this will be an expensive replacement kit for Ultrascale P4 wheels!!

Stephen

[7013]

To quote Hornby Magazine. 'Hattons is also exploring fitting working lights which will work in the direction of travel.' which is not a misread or anything to do with weathering.

[Ragtag]

Just received from Hattons:

 

Hatton's Beyer Garratt project

 

Hatton’s are pleased to announce our next specially commissioned project - the Beyer Garratt. Working with Heljan we will be producing 12 variations of the LMS Garratts in OO Gauge, due for delivery in time for Christmas 2012. The price for pre-order is £199.

 

The Beyer Garratt 2-6-0+0-6-2s, which ran between 1930 and 1958, will be available available in LMS and BR liveries with a choice of pristine, lightly weathered and heavily weathered finishes. All models will include an 8-pin DCC socket and have two motors for the articulated driving wheels. We’re also looking into the possibility of incorporating working lights which operate in the direction of travel.

 

This project follows our previous collaborations with Heljan, the Class 14 Teddy Bears and Class 28 Co-Bo’s. Our early LMS Beyer Garratts, running numbers 4970 and 4978, will feature standard bunkers and pony wheel brakes, with the 10 later models featuring revolving bunkers and no pony wheel brakes.

 

 

Details on specific models: http://campaign.r20.constantcontact.com/render?llr=hxqla4bab&v=001yP95GP3a5wgdW6wmAkEdkCScu8fxCIh54PW0Wwfg0hH9E6JHSh3Wax6Kfbvji8frrEkqRFzBHAutPXQ8GTMzJ8sSvGveLbRgv0aoPoGsfyHRbUMjiMIXfg%3D%3D

[Stevelewis]

A VERY Welcome announcement<

 

Although I dont model UK outline I am sure that one or even 2 of these may find their way onto my US H0 or even the on30 layouts!!!!!!

 

The Beyer Garratt was proposed by Dapol Many years ago but never came to anything

 

I think an Australian manufacturer did produce/commission some expensively in Brass

[stroller]

Just ordered one!! Never thought we would see a RTR one of these at such an excellent price. I hope it meets expectations, whose going to bite the bullet and do the Duke?

[Dagworth]

but two motors on a single decoder gives problems with back EMF detection chips

 

Which is what I said four days ago, see post no 76 (Beast, would you like your invisible ink back )

 

Andi

[bertiedog]

Which is what I said four days ago, see post no 76 (Beast, would you like your invisible ink back )

 

Andi

 

It does rather seem at times that when commenting on, giving further information, or making references to other peoples replies, than the first poster gives comments like this, simply making a statement and expecting nobody to comment forgets this is an open forum, replies are for all, the poster, the replier, the expert, or a non expert who desires more information on a subject.

 

Simply posting a reply and then expecting it to attract no further comment, and to expect repeats of information you have already given not to turn up again is not the way forums work, they are discussion groups.

 

The problems that some people get with Back EMF decoders running two motors are well known, but as you well know are disregraded by many other DCC users. The Beyer Garratt brings the issue to the fore more than any other model, as diesels tend to cover up any problems. Many newcomers to DCC do not even realise the chips are back EMF types and can usually be turned on or off.

 

But as I said it is unlikely to be an issue due to the coupling of the units via the track, hunting would be hidden in most situations, but at a guess I would say it might occurs on the start and end of gradients, when one of themotors gets less or more strain on it before the other, causing the Back EMF signal to be wrong for one or other of the motors and slight surging can occur.

 

If Heljan fit flywheels or the motors have enough mass the rotational forces overcome the effects and you still get smooth running.

 

I run double headed DCC, and with two decoders no problem occurs apart from operator mistakes!

 

As an experiment I coupled two Bachmann 260 On3 locos to one back EMF decoder, and it works fine, with the exception of a very sudden change in gradient, where one engine is on the flat, and the lead is already on the down gradient, then a cut in speed occurs and as the second loco starts the gradient it surges slightly, (hunting).

 

It does not happen on more mild gradients it took more than 1:20 to get problems to show up. My guess is one decoder is going to work fine for most people, but for the more advanced user two will be the way to go.

 

Stephen.

[dave flint]

A very tempting model, but how long were the real things (and how long will the model be ) ?

 

I don't know it If will actually fit on my planned preservation layout.

 

And with 4 exclusive models now, will hattons get their own listing in the "products" section ?!

[The Stationmaster]

A very tempting model, but how long were the real things (and how long will the model be ) ?

 

The real thing was 87ft 10.5" over buffers so it won't be a shorty in 4mm scale (three LMS 'Jinties' buffer to buffer would be about 94ft overall).

[coachmann]

The real thing was 87ft 10.5" over buffers

So the last one that came in here for painting was 879mm long...

 

A 4mm Garratt will be far more manageable......And a neat big brother for my 7F Austin Seven.

[LNWR lives on]

The real thing was 87ft 10.5" over buffers so it won't be a shorty in 4mm scale (three LMS 'Jinties' buffer to buffer would be about 94ft overall).

 

 

So at all but 88ft, were looking at a loco of length 352mm, whats the chances of it negotiating anything less than a 3rd radius (505mm) toy train curve as thats the minimum radius I am looking at to bring locos into and out of the scenic section

[MarkSG]

So at all but 88ft, were looking at a loco of length 352mm, whats the chances of it negotiating anything less than a 3rd radius (505mm) toy train curve as thats the minimum radius I am looking at to bring locos into and out of the scenic section

 

Theoretically, that shouldn't be a problem as the whole point of articulation in the first place is to allow it to negotiate curves that a rigid loco of that length couldn't. As far as the model is concerned, that obviously depends on how rigid the articulation is, and whether it can be allowed to turn to a non-prototypical degree without compromising the design. The biggest problem, I would have thought, will be overhang.

 

Does anyone know how well the kit versions handle curves?

[7013]

I wonder if there will be articulation in each driving section to help it negotiate smaller curves? I presume the prototypes were not articulated though

[Captain Kernow]

Would you let me have the reference for this book as I'm interested in any photos of them in the Bristol area for reference for my model of Barrow Road shed?

 

Robin

May I also have this information, as it sounds like an interesting read. Thanks.

[coachmann]

As regards minimum curves, I think it most likely Heljan will look at the paremeters Bachmann and Hornby work to. Seeing as this question has been raised, does it mean many RMweb members use toy track. If it was being done as a brass model, the minimum curve would probably be 24".

[LNWR lives on]

As regards minimum curves, I think it most likely Heljan will look at the paremeters Bachmann and Hornby work to. Seeing as this question has been raised, does it mean many RMweb members use toy track. If it was being done as a brass model, the minimum curve would probably be 24".

 

 

Intention is to use code 100 flexitrack, using 3rd and 4th radius curves to bring into each end of the scenic section, then peco points, medium and long turnouts, that said there is a thought, what kind of hangover would we see on medium points. am feeling an experiment coming on......

[coachmann]

As regards front and rear overhang, the wheelbase is similar to the Fowler 2-6-4T and Crab 2-6-0 (3" longer distance between pony truck axle and leading axle on Garratt). Then there is some spread by the boiler frame, but not a lot....... It depends on where the pivot pins are positioned. There is also the rotating coal drum to consider seeing as it passes through a hole in the cab back plate.

 

The loco is long, yes. But the articulation ensures it is spread about evenly on curves.

[Cornish Triang Paul]

Would you let me have the reference for this book as I'm interested in any photos of them in the Bristol area for reference for my model of Barrow Road shed?

 

Robin

 

 

Midland Outpost - Memories Of Barrow Road Shed by D J Fleming. RP Publishing of Bristol. No ISBN number 1984/5.

Also, The Best Way To Bath by Neil Burgess with the same publisher 1984. Of note too is Memories by Anthony Wray with Avon Valley Publishing 1988. These are all paperback but i should think now difficult to find. The Avon Valley Railway may be able to help. Their own Semiphore booklets may also shed light.

[spamcan61]

There's one copy of the Barrow Raod shed book available via Amazon:-

 

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000WBR2KI/ref=nosim/1557

 

 

a couple of copies of the Best Way To Bath:-

 

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000S8W7ZU/ref=nosim/1557

 

 

Can't find the Wray book.