Heljan Beyer garratt

[barrowroad]

I have now found a definite reference to a daily freight working from Toton to Westerleigh Yard, with the Garratt loco going to Gloucester shed for servicing, not Barrow Road or Bath, apparently. This started circa 1950 until circa 1956. There is a photo of 47994 on shed at Gloucester taken during tihs time frame. 47994 was not finally withdrawn until 1958, according to this source.

Hi Tim,

Any more details of this ?

Donald Flook, who used to work at Barrow Road in the late 40's & 50's, has confimed that Garratts did work into Barrow Road shed from Westerleigh Yard as has another former employee. They have told me they were not frequent visits but were on shed, they think, at least once a week. Donald told me that one was actually driven over the turntable inside the shed - he remembers it well because his job was Supervisor outside maintainence and this gave him not only responsiblity for the Coaling & Ash Plants but also the turntable.

Unfortunately he has no photos of one on shed although he did take a good selection as can be found in his article in BRILL Summer Special No 8.

I'm still hoping for a photo to appear preferably one on shed but anywhere in the Bristol to Gloucester area would be great................

[coachmann]

The report of the testing of Fowler 7F 0-8-0's on the S&DJR is interesting. The small 4F axleboxes fitted to this big loco were the its undoing as one would have expected, but for some reason the S&DJR 2-8-0's, which had exactly the same axleboxes, seemed to manage okay. I can only conclude from this that the front end of a 2-8-0 was so feeble that it did not put the same stresses on the 4F axleboxes and that the S&DJR 2-8-0 was now't more than a glorified 4F. The fact that the 2-8-0s were useless on Midland mainline coal trains appears to back this up.

 

The Fowler 0-8-0, despite its detractions, continued to haul prostidgeous amounts of coal across the Pennines until replaced by Austerity 2-8-0s in mid 1957. One knocker replaced by another!

[Captain Kernow]

Hi Tim,

Any more details of this ?

Donald Flook, who used to work at Barrow Road in the late 40's & 50's, has confimed that Garratts did work into Barrow Road shed from Westerleigh Yard as has another former employee. They have told me they were not frequent visits but were on shed, they think, at least once a week. Donald told me that one was actually driven over the turntable inside the shed - he remembers it well because his job was Supervisor outside maintainence and this gave him not only responsiblity for the Coaling & Ash Plants but also the turntable.

Unfortunately he has no photos of one on shed although he did take a good selection as can be found in his article in BRILL Summer Special No 8.

I'm still hoping for a photo to appear preferably one on shed but anywhere in the Bristol to Gloucester area would be great................

Robin, it's in the text in a photographic caption in either 'Steam Routes around Gloucester', by Stephen Mourton http://www.ianallanpublishing.com/steam-routes-around-gloucester.html, or in 'Bristol to Birmingham, portrait of a famous Midland Railway Route', part 2, by Stephen Mourton and Bob Pixton http://www.transportdiversions.com/publicationshow.asp?pubid=4152

 

As I'm not at home at the moment, I can't check, but I think it may be the latter. That book also has the photo of 47994 on Gloucester shed.

 

I should have elaborated that the caption mentions that the locos went for servicing at Gloucester, but doesn't say that they didn't go to Barrow Road, which I would have thought likely in any case, given it's proximity to Westerleigh Yard and the fact that the railway doesn't always run exactly as planned....

[bike2steam]

The report of the testing of Fowler 7F 0-8-0's on the S&DJR is interesting. The small 4F axleboxes fitted to this big loco were the its undoing as one would have expected, but for some reason the S&DJR 2-8-0's, which had exactly the same axleboxes, seemed to manage okay. I can only conclude from this that the front end of a 2-8-0 was so feeble that it did not put the same stresses on the 4F axleboxes and that the S&DJR 2-8-0 was now't more than a glorified 4F. The fact that the 2-8-0s were useless on Midland mainline coal trains appears to back this up.

 

The Fowler 0-8-0, despite its detractions, continued to haul prostidgeous amounts of coal across the Pennines until replaced by Austerity 2-8-0s in mid 1957. One knocker replaced by another!

 

Indeed it's a classic example of different loco classes suited to specific 'roads', a Garratt was tried out on a Toton to Manchester freight but on retiring to Heaton Mersey shed for disposal it was found that most of it's brake blocks had melted, suffice to say not many Garratts were used on Manchester freights after that.

[buffalo]

Indeed it's a classic example of different loco classes suited to specific 'roads'...

Indeed, I understand that the first batch of S&DJR 7Fs did have axle box problems until they were fitted with mechanical lubricators. Thereafter, they and the second batch gave excellent performance both climbing and descending the Mendips. When one (88?) was trialled together with one of the new Garratts, and LMS and LNWR 0-8-0s over the Toton-Brent route in 1927(?), the problems were not only the boxes, but also their high coal and water consumption over this long and relatively flat route. Larry's point about the Fowler 0-8-0s doing well accross the Pennines supports the impression that the axle boxes were less of a problem over hilly routes, only causing problems on the long runs at near constant speed.

 

Nick

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Maybe the LMS Society could provide the answers as to where the Garratts strayed. It would also be useful to know what and where restrictions were in force. Platform clearances?...........Neighbouring LNER and GWR lines restrictions.

I have read (the proverbial 'somewhere') that the LNER rated them RA9, platform clearance not a problem for any route that had standard grouping company coaches running on it. Colour Rail's LM90 is of 7987 working an ironstone train at Copmanthorpe on the ECML just South of York, early in BR ownership but everything on view still having the appearance of the grouping scene.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

The report of the testing of Fowler 7F 0-8-0's on the S&DJR is interesting. The small 4F axleboxes fitted to this big loco were the its undoing as one would have expected, but for some reason the S&DJR 2-8-0's, which had exactly the same axleboxes, seemed to manage okay. I can only conclude from this that the front end of a 2-8-0 was so feeble that it did not put the same stresses on the 4F axleboxes and that the S&DJR 2-8-0 was now't more than a glorified 4F. The fact that the 2-8-0s were useless on Midland mainline coal trains appears to back this up.

Three factors to consider. The leading wheelset of the 0-8-0 has to do more guiding work than that of the 2-8-0 which has a pony truck.Then the deadweight axleloads, averaging just over 15T on the Austin Seven, just under 14T on the S&DJR 2-8-0. Then there is the factor you suspect of the much superior valve events of the the later 0-8-0, meaning that the theoretical difference in tractive effort in favour of the 2-8-0 masks the fact that the 0-8-0's engine could put out significantly more power, and thus axlebox heating potential. (The 2-8-0 had a relatively low factor of adhesion of about 3.4, but was not much given to slipping: what that says is that the engine unit had significantly less grunt than the tractive effort estimate suggests.) Add all that up, and the Austin Seven's axleboxes are taking a significantly higher load.

[bertiedog]

Does anybody have any idea of how we might learn what back-to-back setting Heljan will use for the Hattons/Heljan Garratt? On page 9 (posts 209, et seq.) of the Eastwood Town thread (blog?) on RMweb there is a discussion of B2B wrt 00-SF trackwork. There it is stated that Heljan use a B2B of 14.2 mm and that this is uncomfortably small. The thought of a Garratt is very attractive, but the thought of trying to increase the B2B on so many axles isn't.

 

Robert

 

14.2 mm is indeed very small and therefore tight, 14.4 mm is the accepted minimum for a nominal 14.5mm back to back. Such wheels sets would go through most universal points such as Peco, but may baulk on the HO code 83 NMRA standard track. However the other point is the tyre width and the measurement from flange root to the other wheel.

 

Heljan may also taper the flange back which confuses matters as the tip Back to Back is greater than at rail level.

 

But this must remain speculation till it arrives, it should conform to at least NMRA spec to give the widest running capabilities. Unless Heljan adopt very strange wheel retention methods, they could be adjusted outwards a bit, but the best test is to first try on your track and points.

 

Other Heljan diesels seem fine on assorted track and points, and one I measured is 14.4mm.......on the min spec for NMRA at 14.5mm

 

Stephen.

[JZ]

Though I don't need one, I shall be buying. It's in my list of engines wot I want.

[barrowroad]

Robin, it's in the text in a photographic caption in either 'Steam Routes around Gloucester', by Stephen Mourton http://www.ianallanp...gloucester.html, or in 'Bristol to Birmingham, portrait of a famous Midland Railway Route', part 2, by Stephen Mourton and Bob Pixton http://www.transport....asp?pubid=4152

 

As I'm not at home at the moment, I can't check, but I think it may be the latter. That book also has the photo of 47994 on Gloucester shed.

 

I should have elaborated that the caption mentions that the locos went for servicing at Gloucester, but doesn't say that they didn't go to Barrow Road, which I would have thought likely in any case, given it's proximity to Westerleigh Yard and the fact that the railway doesn't always run exactly as planned....

 

Tim,

 

I've seen a photo of 47972 on Gloucester Midland shed which is in the latter book but so far that is the only Garratt photo I've seen anywhere near Bristol.....I live in hope

[7013]

I find the postings about where and when Garratts were seen, especialy south of Gloucester and the S&D intriguing, with some posters its almost as if they have to have documentary proof of one being in the place to justify buying one.

I can understand this when ones layout is of a specific time/place, however is it not cutting ones nose of etc. by refusing to by one of these magnificent locos because it was never seen in those particular climes.

I am fortunate in that I have covered most bases with my layout being a fictitious junction where Western meets Southern and Midland and occasional Eastern, this happened in the Banbury/Oxford area so it is not so far fetched, and to be honest from my perspective the heavy coal trains in that area will be pulled by Beyer Garratts.

Go on take the plunge and order one, you will only regret it if they alll sell out. If I were one who had a specific time/place layout I would build another just to accomodate Garratts....now theres a thought... a shed scene where Garratts were commonplace.

[Cornish Triang Paul]

I find the postings about where and when Garratts were seen, especialy south of Gloucester and the S&D intriguing, with some posters its almost as if they have to have documentary proof of one being in the place to justify buying one.

I can understand this when ones layout is of a specific time/place, however is it not cutting ones nose of etc. by refusing to by one of these magnificent locos because it was never seen in those particular climes.

I am fortunate in that I have covered most bases with my layout being a fictitious junction where Western meets Southern and Midland and occasional Eastern, this happened in the Banbury/Oxford area so it is not so far fetched, and to be honest from my perspective the heavy coal trains in that area will be pulled by Beyer Garratts.

Go on take the plunge and order one, you will only regret it if they alll sell out. If I were one who had a specific time/place layout I would build another just to accomodate Garratts....now theres a thought... a shed scene where Garratts were commonplace.

....And i like the idea of a red one........

[Weekday Cross]

If the brakes failed with a long heavy mineral train in tow, they could have ended up anywhere - including places that had no railway at all

[barrowroad]

I find the postings about where and when Garratts were seen, especialy south of Gloucester and the S&D intriguing, with some posters its almost as if they have to have documentary proof of one being in the place to justify buying one.

I can understand this when ones layout is of a specific time/place, however is it not cutting ones nose of etc. by refusing to by one of these magnificent locos because it was never seen in those particular climes.

I am fortunate in that I have covered most bases with my layout being a fictitious junction where Western meets Southern and Midland and occasional Eastern, this happened in the Banbury/Oxford area so it is not so far fetched, and to be honest from my perspective the heavy coal trains in that area will be pulled by Beyer Garratts.

Go on take the plunge and order one, you will only regret it if they alll sell out. If I were one who had a specific time/place layout I would build another just to accomodate Garratts....now theres a thought... a shed scene where Garratts were commonplace.

 

I've ordered one already but it is always good to have a photo available to customise the finish on a model - I now have a year until delivery so hopefully a photo at Barrow Road will turn up in the meantime

[mirreles31]

Just ordered one despite the knowledge that they probably never ran over exGCR metals (or did they?) on which a proposed future layout is going to be based. However the chosen location was a main coal route into Sheffield and was connected to the Midland at Chesterfield so who knows? .Phil.

[7013]

I have it on good authority (me) that a Garratt started off in Johm o' Groats the north of Scotland with a huge long train which weighed several thousand tonnes, by Inverness it had reached nearly 100mph, however the driver had to brake hard and the train swereved voilently, it went back and forth across Scotland dipped down into the NE of England where it took a voilent turn to the north of England covering all all the industrial areas, the train then pitched over to East Anglia only to be thrown back across the Midlands into Wales where it snaked around the Valleys. The driver threw the loco into reverse the resulting jolt took it over to London and the SE, the driver and fireman fought these violent manouveres and began to get som semblance of control as the train sped across the south towards Bath, Bristol and Gloucester, just when they thought they had brought the mighty beast under control there was one last vicious swerve that straightened up the train and shot it towards the south west, the valiant crew stopped the train at Penzance......What? it's true I swear it.

[barrowroad]

I have it on good authority (me) that a Garratt started off in Johm o' Groats the north of Scotland with a huge long train which weighed several thousand tonnes, by Inverness it had reached nearly 100mph, however the driver had to brake hard and the train swereved voilently, it went back and forth across Scotland dipped down into the NE of England where it took a voilent turn to the north of England covering all all the industrial areas, the train then pitched over to East Anglia only to be thrown back across the Midlands into Wales where it snaked around the Valleys. The driver threw the loco into reverse the resulting jolt took it over to London and the SE, the driver and fireman fought these violent manouveres and began to get som semblance of control as the train sped across the south towards Bath, Bristol and Gloucester, just when they thought they had brought the mighty beast under control there was one last vicious swerve that straightened up the train and shot it towards the south west, the valiant crew stopped the train at Penzance......What? it's true I swear it.

 

And obviously it then leapt over to the S©illy Isles

[LNWR lives on]

I have it on good authority (me) that a Garratt started off in Johm o' Groats the north of Scotland with a huge long train which weighed several thousand tonnes, by Inverness it had reached nearly 100mph, however the driver had to brake hard and the train swereved voilently, it went back and forth across Scotland dipped down into the NE of England where it took a voilent turn to the north of England covering all all the industrial areas, the train then pitched over to East Anglia only to be thrown back across the Midlands into Wales where it snaked around the Valleys. The driver threw the loco into reverse the resulting jolt took it over to London and the SE, the driver and fireman fought these violent manouveres and began to get som semblance of control as the train sped across the south towards Bath, Bristol and Gloucester, just when they thought they had brought the mighty beast under control there was one last vicious swerve that straightened up the train and shot it towards the south west, the valiant crew stopped the train at Penzance......What? it's true I swear it.

 

Sure your not mixing up a Garratt with Harry Potters Knight Bus?

[coachmann]

However the chosen location was a main coal route into Sheffield and was connected to the Midland at Chesterfield so who knows? .Phil.

In my little Observors book of Railway Lomotives 1958 edition, it says..." ...all (Beyer Garratts) have been withdrawn in the past three years, leaving one survivor at the time of going to press. Location : Stationed at Hasland (Chesterfield) and may be seen on local freight trains in the district". Running number 47994.

[mirreles31]

In my little Observors book of Railway Lomotives 1958 edition, it says..." ...all (Beyer Garratts) have been withdrawn in the past three years, leaving one survivor at the time of going to press. Location : Stationed at Hasland (Chesterfield) and may be seen on local freight trains in the district". Running numver 47994.

Hi Coach, now that is very interesting indeed, could very easily have trundled its way up thro' Woodhouse (the chosen location). Coal was always the bread and butter of this particular stretch of line, ended up with MGR coal if I recall correctly. Thanks for that info much obliged. The one I've ordered is 47996! Cheers Phil.

[bennyboy]

 

And obviously it then leapt over to the S©illy Isles

 

And the Isle Of Sodor? Did Garratts ever feature in the Rev Awdry's books?

[S.A.C Martin]

 

And the Isle Of Sodor? Did Garratts ever feature in the Rev Awdry's books?

 

No, but you never know with the modern day television series...!

[coachmann]

Did Garratts ever feature in the Rev Awdry's books?

He wasn't popular. Two faced I believe.

[Invicta]

In my little Observors book of Railway Lomotives 1958 edition, it says..." ...all (Beyer Garratts) have been withdrawn in the past three years, leaving one survivor at the time of going to press. Location : Stationed at Hasland (Chesterfield) and may be seen on local freight trains in the district". Running number 47994.

 

Just to add a bit more on Hasland's Garratts, from the 'Midland' volume of Hawkins & Reeves' LMS Engine Sheds (vol2)

 

'Some of Toton's Garratts (a total eventually of 16) by now well past their prime, were concentrated at Hasland in the 1950s for the iron ore traffic between Wellingborough and York, working on occasions right through to Middlesborough, but all had been withdrawn by 1958. The last one to remain was 47994, the sad giant forced to stable in the shed yard.

No special accommodation was provided for these engines at Hasland, even though as early as 1945 a batch of ten had been allocated. Two, Nos 4984 and 4997 had appeared as early as 1933.

 

 

That raises a thought, given 7013's suggestion a couple of posts back of modelling 'a shed scene where Garratts were commonplace'

Now Garratts are pretty lengthy beasts- 87'10'' give or take the odd half-inch- which must have made them a bit of a handful to house on shed, and the reference to 'no special accommodation' at Hasland made me wonder if any adaptations had to be made for them elsewhere...?

 

A quick skim of a 1945 allocation list in the LMS Engine Sheds book has them concentrated at Toton and Hasland, and look at the section on Toton reveals that 'special accommodation was required and a new road was taken through the length of numbers 2 and 3 sheds, enabling some of the big locos to stable under cover'

 

There's an aerial pic of No.2 shed open to the sky during re-roofing around the time of Nationalisation, which illustrates this perfectly- No.2 shed was arranged around a turntable, and locos are stabled on the roads radiating from the table, while there's a single road along the length of the side wall of the shed, running through from the adjoining building, which is used to stable a couple of Garratts.

 

The caption comments on 'the limitations on stabling room imposed by the 'Garratt Road', and it's noticeable that several of the roads on this side of the shed are cut short and used to stable Jinties or a solitary diesel shunter-they're too short for anything much bigger, so the 8Fs, 0-6-0s and a couple of G2s are either on the other side of the shed, or on the longer roads running running into the corners of the building.

[mirreles31]

After Coachmann's mention of his 1958 Observer book I had a rummage under my chest of drawers, you know the place you put things that might come in handy next millenia , and found a 1957 copy along with an Ian Allen ABC 1956. The ABC reports, as of Jan 1956, 22 Garratts still in service. The 1957 Observer book has all surviving locos at Toton & Hasland.