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Heljan Beyer garratt

Hugh Flynn

By Hugh Flynn,
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adb968008

adb968008

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Posted (edited)

There's a lot of hysteria around the Garratt.

 

Ive had mine since new, I too got caught up in the motor gate debate, and bought two spare motors.

two years on, the Garratt still works fine, the motors are still in the drawer.

 

The only issue I was conscious of, was valve gear had a tendency to be a bit loose on the slide bars, I check them periodically to tru-them closer to ensure the piston rod doesn't inadvertently come off (which when causing locking seems to have been the source of a few burn out motor issues).

 

my worst case scenario if all else fails, is to remove a motor and gearing and go single motored, but so far, touch wood, mines been fine.

 

I think the fear of this has stopped these models escalating in price, the initially climbed to £400+ briefly before rumours started circulating, but looking through ebay history, if there was a case of mass faults with models, ebay would usually be littered with non-running examples, however thats not appeared to have been the case either, indeed in current history all 16 recently sold were working, one advertised as with new motors.  At some point if theres a mass extinction event killing these off, then spares will become plentiful.

Edited by adb968008
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Golden Fleece 30

Golden Fleece 30

Posted
Posted

There's a lot of hysteria around the Garratt.

 

Ive had mine since new, I too got caught up in the motor gate debate, and bought two spare motors.

two years on, the Garratt still works fine, the motors are still in the drawer.

 

The only issue I was conscious of, was valve gear had a tendency to be a bit loose on the slide bars, I check them periodically to tru-them closer to ensure the piston rod doesn't inadvertently come off (which when causing locking seems to have been the source of a few burn out motor issues).

 

my worst case scenario if all else fails, is to remove a motor and gearing and go single motored, but so far, touch wood, mines been fine.

 

Looking through ebay history, if there was a case of mass faults with models, ebay would usually be littered with non-running examples, however thats not appeared to have been the case either.

I cannot say mine locked to cause the motor to burn out, mine was running UNTIL the motor burnt out which itself was the cause of the locking as when I removed the motor the chassis was still free.

 

Garry

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peterfgf

peterfgf

Posted
Posted

Happy New Year everyone.

 

I'm very late joining this particular party as I've only recently joined the RMWebbers Club and found this thread. The tales within are not terribly encouraging. I've read all 94 pages in the last three days or so with great interest as I bought one of these eons ago. I can't remember which particular one and my collection is stored away at the moment so I'm not able to access it easily. As made mention way up in this thread I can confirm there is at least a third one here in France ;).

 

When I bought it, I sound chipped it almost straight away (whether before or after I ran it, I don't recall). It has run for about 1/2 hour at my local club as I have no layout or track set up. The members (all French) were mightily impressed by the loco especially as it was ever so smooth straight from the box. I can say, hand on heart, that it didn't pull anything other than itself around the track. I did not perceive any issues regarding the pony truck lifting or differences in speed between fore and aft motor units - I wasn't looking out for problems either - and the standard of the track is not good as it has been assembled and disassembled for shows many times. Track radius is in the order of 2' minimum and all in Peco 100.

 

I do, however, have a question: Should I be buying some spare motors just in case? I think the answer will be 'yes'. If so, from where should I try to source them:

 

a: Direct from Heljan

b: From Olivia's

c: From Ebay/Ali baba at about £3 - £7 a piece (I saw a list of possible sources on page 86 or thereabouts - though some seem to be sold out), or;

d: Go Mashima (if still available)?

 

Your thoughts would be welcome.

 

Philip

 

My Beyer Garratt failed almost immediately after fitting a decoder. It had run for about 60 minutes beforehand on DC.

It ran for about 300mm (1ft), then the handset tripped out on overload/short-circuit.  I reset the trip and it would run for another 300mm and trip again, and again, and again.

I took the motor out, ran it on DC, which produced much blue sparking and smoke from the commutator.  I ordered replacements straight away:

  • I couldn't identify any similar motors on eBay, so well done if you have managed to.
  • I considered Heljan replacements risky - they might be no better than the originals (although I understand that the Olivia Garratts may have been re-motored with Heljan supplied motors). 
  • I didn't want to have to do the job twice, so I ordered two Mashima MHK1024 (as recommended above) from Wizard models on Humberside (good service),  High Level Kits showed them as being in stock but I got no reply to my email.

The replacement took a bit of time and care: the flywheel need pulling off; the motor drive shafts have to be shortened; and the leads to the motors needed extending by about 10-15mm as they had been cut to fit the original motor exactly.

 

I couldn't find any dis-assembly or maintenance instructions.  I doubt that the model came with any and I couldn't find any to download on the internet (black mark against Hattons).  What I did find incredibly useful was a set of instructions and photographs by Pete Hill on how to convert the model to EM gauge - not that I was going to do that- but he shows you how to take it apart and what lies inside.  Highly recommended if you are going to replace the motors: http://www.alangibsonworkshop.com/Heljan-Hattons%20Garratt.pdf

 

Some care needs to be taken.  The model is quite delicate and the footsteps under the buffers made me resort to some very basic language.

 

I'm very pleased with the result and the model runs extremely smoothly and hauls a good load.

 

When I have a moment I will write the procedure up and post it on here,

 

Peterfgf

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Philou

Philou

Posted
Posted (edited)

@Peterfgf @adb968008 @Garry

 

Thanks for your info - I believe I read your posts regarding the travails of the 'burn-outs' :(, and the 'insurance' of having motors in stock ;). As I haven't YET run the thing very long nor had any load behind it, I may go for the insurance route as there is no way I would consider dumping/reselling the model on as I particularly like it. I will investigate if Mashimas are still in stock (price notwithstanding) or go for some Australian based motors (about £7 each plus P+P) that were amongst those on the list shown at about pg86.

 

I saw last night that Olivia's had all 12 in stock (but no numbers as to how many of each), being re-motored and warrantied for between £240 and £280 a piece - which if the motors are good'uns - then it is, IMHO, still quite a lot of loco for the money.

 

Peter, I think your offer of writing up the procedure would be much appreciated.

 

Thanks again for your views,

 

Philip

 

Gah! Edited for typos.

Edited by Philou
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robmcg

robmcg

Posted
Posted (edited)

Happy New Year everyone.

 

I'm very late joining this particular party as I've only recently joined the RMWebbers Club and found this thread. The tales within are not terribly encouraging. I've read all 94 pages in the last three days or so with great interest as I bought one of these eons ago. I can't remember which particular one and my collection is stored away at the moment so I'm not able to access it easily. As made mention way up in this thread I can confirm there is at least a third one here in France ;).

 

When I bought it, I sound chipped it almost straight away (whether before or after I ran it, I don't recall). It has run for about 1/2 hour at my local club as I have no layout or track set up. The members (all French) were mightily impressed by the loco especially as it was ever so smooth straight from the box. I can say, hand on heart, that it didn't pull anything other than itself around the track. I did not perceive any issues regarding the pony truck lifting or differences in speed between fore and aft motor units - I wasn't looking out for problems either - and the standard of the track is not good as it has been assembled and disassembled for shows many times. Track radius is in the order of 2' minimum and all in Peco 100.

 

I do, however, have a question: Should I be buying some spare motors just in case? I think the answer will be 'yes'. If so, from where should I try to source them:

 

a: Direct from Heljan

b: From Olivia's

c: From Ebay/Ali baba at about £3 - £7 a piece (I saw a list of possible sources on page 86 or thereabouts - though some seem to be sold out), or;

d: Go Mashima (if still available)?

 

Your thoughts would be welcome.

 

Philip

 

Interesting, and thanks.  

 

I have bought a total of 10 Garratts when new and eventually sold all, but I have since bought 1 second-hand 47996, all were test run and were ALL perfect. They do require a bit of care in handling. I could only test run them on a diorama so as far as any proper running goes I cannot comment, but I sell on a site where buyers always leave feedback and the 8 sold brought ZERO problems.

 

Not one comeback, so I incline to think they are more reliable than this thread suggests at times. Maybe valve gear issues sometimes cause other more serious things?

 

My twoponnyworth..

 

I love them as models, sure they have detail fragility and a few detail lapses, but superb, I would buy spare motors only they were cheap and fit for purpose and easy to install.  I'm not bothered with mine, but it only gets short runs.

 

Cheers

 

edit p.s. Analogue DC only

Edited by robmcg
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trw1089

trw1089

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My Garratt has been running regularly since new with only one valve gear lockup on the front engine unit being the only problem and that was easily cured. A friend of mine bought eight of them and other than the valve gear falling off one side of one of them all eight have been running with no problems since new.

 

I have bought two spare motors off eBay just in case, and if Mashimas were still available I’d probably have bought them as insurance, but at this stage, the motors are in the drawer and the loco continues to look and work beautiful. I think the issue is that only those that had problems tended to post at first, so that tends to skew these threads into a long list of complaints, but I do believe going on the evidence I’ve seen out here in Oz, the majority work a treat. The Heljan O2 though, that’s a different story and it has certainly made me very wary of any other Heljan steam offerings.

 

Cheers

Tony

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cctransuk

cctransuk

Posted
Posted (edited)

My Garratt has been running regularly since new with only one valve gear lockup on the front engine unit being the only problem and that was easily cured. A friend of mine bought eight of them and other than the valve gear falling off one side of one of them all eight have been running with no problems since new.

 

I have bought two spare motors off eBay just in case, and if Mashimas were still available I’d probably have bought them as insurance, but at this stage, the motors are in the drawer and the loco continues to look and work beautiful. I think the issue is that only those that had problems tended to post at first, so that tends to skew these threads into a long list of complaints, but I do believe going on the evidence I’ve seen out here in Oz, the majority work a treat. The Heljan O2 though, that’s a different story and it has certainly made me very wary of any other Heljan steam offerings.

 

Cheers

Tony

 

I believe a lot of 'lock-ups' are caused by handling issues; the model is large, in three sections, and can be ungainly to handle.

 

Given that the valvegear is easily distorted and clearances are tight, it is the easiest thing in the world to apply a little too much pressure in the wrong place.

 

Result - tight clearances reduced to no or negative clearance - and 'lock-up'.

 

Handle with care !!

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

Edited by cctransuk
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  • 4 weeks later...
peterfgf

peterfgf

Posted
Posted

My Beyer Garratt failed almost immediately after fitting a decoder. It had run for about 60 minutes beforehand on DC.

It ran for about 300mm (1ft), then the handset tripped out on overload/short-circuit.  I reset the trip and it would run for another 300mm and trip again, and again, and again.

I took the motor out, ran it on DC, which produced much blue sparking and smoke from the commutator.  I ordered replacements straight away:

  • I couldn't identify any similar motors on eBay, so well done if you have managed to.
  • I considered Heljan replacements risky - they might be no better than the originals (although I understand that the Olivia Garratts may have been re-motored with Heljan supplied motors). 
  • I didn't want to have to do the job twice, so I ordered two Mashima MHK1024 (as recommended above) from Wizard models on Humberside (good service),  High Level Kits showed them as being in stock but I got no reply to my email.

The replacement took a bit of time and care: the flywheel need pulling off; the motor drive shafts have to be shortened; and the leads to the motors needed extending by about 10-15mm as they had been cut to fit the original motor exactly.

 

I couldn't find any dis-assembly or maintenance instructions.  I doubt that the model came with any and I couldn't find any to download on the internet (black mark against Hattons).  What I did find incredibly useful was a set of instructions and photographs by Pete Hill on how to convert the model to EM gauge - not that I was going to do that- but he shows you how to take it apart and what lies inside.  Highly recommended if you are going to replace the motors: http://www.alangibsonworkshop.com/Heljan-Hattons%20Garratt.pdf

 

Some care needs to be taken.  The model is quite delicate and the footsteps under the buffers made me resort to some very basic language.

 

I'm very pleased with the result and the model runs extremely smoothly and hauls a good load.

 

When I have a moment I will write the procedure up and post it on here,

 

Peterfgf

Further to my previous post, I've now found the instruction and maintenance and am attaching a copy here in case anyone else needs a copy, with apologies to Hattons.

Peterfgf

Heljan Hattons Beyer Garratt Instructions and Maintenace.pdf

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  • 1 month later...
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adb968008

adb968008

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Posted (edited)

£75 for a second hand power bogie? The robbing swines! :angry:

You sound like my kind of customer ;-)

 

I’m struggling to think of an alternative modelling use for this chassis, beyond a spare for a Garratt...

The motors opposite way around to most 2-6-0’s, as is the weight shape...

 

The GMAM in SA and the AD60 in Aus make this one look like the baby Garratt, so nothing there.

 

Maybe a fictional GWR 2-6-0 Pannier tank ?

Edited by adb968008
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  • 1 month later...
46256

46256

Posted
Posted (edited)
post-23587-0-26907400-1523717217.jpegpost-23587-0-33270900-1523717247.jpegpost-23587-0-83230300-1523717273.jpegwork on my Garratt now entering final phase....however to describe this now as " Heljan" would be inaccurate given the parentage of the two chassis..comet...wheels markits...gearboxes high level...motors mashima...not bad I suppose for a total outlay double what this cost originally. Is it worth it. . Yes to have one of these beasts that now runs as good as it looks ....will post when finished.. Edited by 46256
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ikks

ikks

Posted
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attachicon.gifimage.jpegattachicon.gifimage.jpegattachicon.gifimage.jpegwork on my Garratt now entering final phase....however to describe this now as " Heljan" would be inaccurate given the parentage if the chassis..comet...wheels markits...gearboxes high level...motors mashima...not bad I suppose for a total outlay double what this cost originally. Is it worth it. . Yes to have one of these beasts that now runs as good as it looks ....will post when finished..

That actually looks superb, I have one, not yet run but I do have two Mashimas ,just

in case...............!!!!!!!!!!!

Edited by ikks
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46256

46256

Posted
Posted (edited)

A cautionary tale.. It is no coincidence that the recent work has taken place...I have been previously been blessed with good eyesight..therefore through ageing has it decreased....so I have put off sub conciously ...working on projects such as this. The use of an optical aid has given my work a new focus....literally ..hence the progress made. Ok yes I have yet to finish this model and my other trait of being diverted into other projects without finishing ..

Edited by 46256
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46256

46256

Posted
Posted

Should have gone to spec savers the previous post should have gone on my thread concerning my layout. The reference to the optical aid concerns a Bachmann head magnifying visor part of their model maker range. I have not previously been able to work with other optivisor types...however this one fits my bill...usual disclaimer..not connected to that business.etc

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  • 4 months later...
No Decorum

No Decorum

Posted
Posted

 

Considering that I paid £199 for each of mine, £211·95 seems very reasonable for an upgraded model, especially bearing in mind that I got mine over four years ago and we all know what prices have been doing over those four years! It’s a spectacular model, even if the prototype was a bit of a dud.

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Ian Hargrave

Ian Hargrave

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Life is full of surprises. The last announcement I would have expected but there you go.Top marks for dogged perseverance or gluttons for punishment ? Now Kernow's in the frame bravely posting of improvements.

 

Is it possible that Heljan can at last deliver a steam era model devoid of the diifficulties that have plagued them over the last couple of years ? This will either cover them in glory or Ben will need a Teflon anorak. Good luck with this one. We're rooting for you !

Edited by Ian Hargrave
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Trains4U

Trains4U

Posted
Posted

Interesting that this now seems to be part of Heljan's core range rather than a retailer commission. I presume they've come to some agreement with Hatton's to permit that.

 

 

I suspect Hattons would have had a time-limited exclusivity clause in their contract with Heljan in exchange for part-funding the tooling.

 

The 28 and 14 are now main-range, so I'm not surprised that the BG has followed

 

I suspect all the O gauge gubbins that Hattons have ordered will also be generally available after 5 years

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