LU Layout Ideas

[Matloughe]

Good Evening,

 

During the course of today I have been working out an idea for an LU Terminus in 6'x2', with a self-contained fiddleyard most likely using a cassette system.

 

I haven't done too much however this is the current plan, the basic plan was originally modelled on Liverpool St the idea being that a long engineering blockade has turned the usually efficient through station into a temporary terminus. (Unfortunately the blockade doesn't seem to be ending anytime soon.) Compressing Liverpool St was difficult, one of the first things that had to go was the bay platform, in 6' there simply wasn't enough space to put in a set of points without compromising an already very compressed station.

 

The basic plan is photographed below.

 

The two GWR coaches are in the fiddle yard on what will be the Outer & Inner Rails, the platforms on the right hand side are capable of taking two-car trains only - If I increased the board length to 8' I think I could get a more prototypical station throat - with third platform plus the extra length for an extra carriage on trains. The Maroon engine is a Jinty - purely there as its about the same length as a Pannier it is sitting on a locomotive siding albeit flipped to the 'wrong' side of the Circle, meanwhile the shunter & LT Brakevan are on a entirely fictional spur to a low-level goods yard or stabling sidings. As you can see starting off with Liverpool St has produced something entirely different.

The station throat is able to send trains to either platform, and then back again onto the inner rail for departure. I am relatively familiar with LT practice - Liverpool Street has only a trailing crossover I believe allowing trains to be turned back if needed the only reason this plan has crossovers going both ways is primarily due to using it as a terminus and also as a run-around loop for propelling wagons into the sidings if retained. I was trying to convey a busy inner city station serving several purposes with lots of track work in a small space as reasonably possible.

 

I'd like to hear your thoughts, no track is pinned. Just me having a play around and somewhere hopefully to run my Acton Shuttle car eventually.

Cheers,

~ Matloughe

[L49]

It's a nice neat plan. The only comment I would make is that most stations on the Inner Circle were built for, or have developed into quite slick operations with as little pointwork as possible, and very little possibility for multiple complicated moves. The working has always been based on the idea of keeping the service moving, and to that end I would question the presence of a low level goods yard this close to a passenger station. The only one I can think of which was actually accessed from the IC tracks was Vine Street, Farringdon, which I think was just a single trailing siding leading to a hoist which took wagons to street level. In short, LT in the central area is certainly not designed for lots of operational fun in a small space...

 

I would say keep the double crossovers for platform access otherwise you will have real operational problems, but why not use the two front sidings for off peak stabling, similar to the east end of Farringdon. you can always use them for reversing engineers trains as well if you want a bit more shuntability. I would also extend the spur siding very slightly, just to allow yourself room for a Met electric to sit in there.

 

Scenically you could include the wider cutting and disused tunnel to the GE behind the loco spur. I love the feeling when you are stood at the west end of Liverpool St Met, by the box, when you look up and it feels like you are surrounded by great towering cliffs of buildings. the light and shadow give such brilliant contrast. I think this layout should be a real winner.

[Matloughe]

Thanks for your suggestions L49, I couldn't help myself, had to take a posed shot of the LT Brakevan. Not a prototypical formation but I don't care.

 

The retaining wall is for my boxfile entry - however I haven't yet had the heart to cut it down to the required size. Do you think for the Loco shunt neck for it to be on the size furthest away from the signal box, i.e. the nearside of the baseboard - off of the line for the sidings? After all on the real Liverpool Street that loco siding doubled up as a shunt neck / catch siding for the bay platform - something I don't have. Perhaps even remove the sidings all together and just have a loco siding.

 

The question is in what order would a train reverse here, would it go into the Outer Rail (Upper) platform, then depart wrong-road to the crossover, or straight into the Inner Rail (Lower) Platform and depart using the normal starting signal - this operational question depends entirely on signalling layout presumably? Also if trains reverse in the Inner Rail platform then the locomotive siding is on the wrong side anyway...

I think I may have an adjustment with the track plan - see if I can adjust it further. At least I have a starting point to return to if it all goes abit Pete Tong.

 

Cheers,

~ Matloughe

[mozzer models]

nice looking Dreadnought coach

[Matloughe]

I know it is.

 

Building a brake to go with it. But no-way will I get the teak so exquisitely represented.

 

Cheers,

~ Matloughe

[L49]

I'd be tempted to keep it roughly as you've got it for now. The geometry works nicely, and with the loco spur and sidings you have got two potential spots to hold a spare engine. Alternatively, you could keep the plan the same; use the Outer Rail platfrom for reversing loco hauled trains, with a wrong road starter at the west end, and use the Inner Rail platform for reversing units, so you can pull a set out of traffic into the sidings. At the moment Liverpool Street only has a shunt signal allowing trains to pull up on the Outher Rail side, and reverse over the crossover, but if you are using the station as a more permanent terminus, I think it would be better to have a little more flexibility built into the basic signalling. Something along the lines of a simplified Baker Street East, where both through platforms can (I think) be used for terminating trains, and all platforms have a full starter signal at the north end.

 

One other thing (at risk of making myself unpopular) is are you sure about that retaining wall for the boxfile layout? I would be tempted to make something a little more 'concretey' if there is such a word, similar to some of the retaining walls on the western extension of the Central Line, or the cutting between West Sutton and Sutton on the wall of death. A few years ago I made a pretty generic set of retaining walls for a customer to photograph his tube stock just by cutting strips of card from board backed envelopes and glueing them together to look like pre-cast concrete strips. Once it was ballasted and had cable runs and railings along the top it looked pretty good, especially with his EFE tube stock posed in front of it, and it only took an hour to make it up.

[L49]

Something like this...

 

 

Sorry for the quality, I just looked it up on street view, but it gives the impression.

[Matloughe]

Good Evening,

 

No chance of making yourself unpopular. I appriciate any & all comments and criticisms, the retaining wall has been cut down - the excess has been reused and is forming a 'boundary wall' around the lower level in my boxfile. It looks ok, I might even get around to some photos on that project this evening. That photo looks rather familiar - I was thinking of a sheer concrete wall however I am thinking of using squares of cardboard to represent a concrete yard with rails embedded in it - thinking about it regardless.

 

This is the current state of play - to fit a Bo-Bo I have to lengthen the siding - I could have it on the signalbox side as before - possibly into a short 3rd tunnel mouth like a Golders Green as a shunt neck. On this set up I was thinking of using the Inner Rail platform to turn around hauled stock idea being a loco in the siding pulls the stock out ECS into the long siding, the formerly trapped loco runs into the engine siding and then the train is backed into the siding again and departs. Only problem is while all this 'faffing' is going on the entire service will be turned using a bang road signal from the outer rail... which isn't ideal. I am seriously considering building a set of hinged boards with a total length of 10'x2' or even 18" the extra four feet would I think allow for more options. Including a Bay Road.

 

I also prefer the first design over this I think I may have gone off on a tangent with this alteration - but it was worth exploring.

Thoughts?

~ Cheers,

~ Matloughe

[Roger.s]

I remember the loco hauled workings in and out of Liverpool Street and often waited for one even though I was usually only going as far as Kings Cross.

 

The fact that there is a loco spur sugests that reversing loco halled trains is or, some time in the past, had been a regular working and so the layout would have been fully signalled for any move you need to make. However I cannot imagine this actualy being done except at a third platform because there would be too much disruption to through trains.

 

To run loco hauled trains you might need more platform length as you only have space the loco and one coach.

 

I can think of four other goods depots on the Inner Circle:- Whitecross Street, Farringdon Street, Smithfield and Kensington High Street. Of course the first three were on the Widened Lines but the GW must have used the Circle from Paddington. I have no idea of the route the Midland used to get to Kensington. Was it via the Circle from Kings Cross or via the District from Earls Court?

I think Vine Street Goods would make a superb sceen on a Met layout if I could sort out how to shunt it. The OS map shows two sidings with a trailing connection to the outer rails but I cannot see anywhere for the loco to run round. BTW it was a goods hoist to ground level not a wagon hoist.

 

If you really really wanted to go 'concrety' a better choice of prototype might just be the eastern extention of the Met at Aldgate. IIRC this was the first use of poured concrete!

 

Regards Roger

[Matloughe]

Hello Roger,

 

The Met has fascinated me ever since I found out they had steam hauled trains underground; being young even I could spot the difference between Jubilee Line 1983 stock and the bigger A stock or (Top Trains) as my late Great Nan called them - invariably a trip to see her was Hammersmith - Stanmore then by little hopper bus to where she lived but I digress. Even now I still have the memory of counting down the stops to Baker St to change trains.

 

There is a plan that would see new boards constructed 10' by 2' or possibly only 18", this would give me two feet of space on either side to develop the layout - and hopefully allow for a slightly more prototypical plan of Liverpool Street - despite the layout currently being a work of fiction. I am also looking at buying Peco Track for the layout instead of my usual Hornby - Peco track would give me some more flexibility to include some space saving features such as slips - which would be useful for bringing in a bay road. We'll see how things go for the moment.

I would imagine that loco-hauled services would have a spare loco waiting in the engine spur, train runs in, spare loco on, train leaves minus its original engine which reverses onto the engine spur awaiting the next train?

 

Cheers,

~ Matloughe

[L49]

I can think of four other goods depots on the Inner Circle:- Whitecross Street, Farringdon Street, Smithfield and Kensington High Street. Of course the first three were on the Widened Lines but the GW must have used the Circle from Paddington. I have no idea of the route the Midland used to get to Kensington. Was it via the Circle from Kings Cross or via the District from Earls Court?

 

I completely forgot about High Street, and there was a Midland yard at West Ken as well. I believe the trains used to come in via the North London Line via a north facing curve near Gunnersbury. I have a feeling some of the formation is still visible where the Richmond branch joins the Ealing line. I'm sure I remember a set of photos taken from the brake on one of these workings being sent into the London Railway Record office. I think it went into a copy of the magazine, but I have no idea how long ago it was.

 

The GWR freight services did use the Inner Circle tracks as far as Farringdon, and they used the long single crossover at the west end of the station to access the widened lines for Smithfield. The only photo I know of showing a train using Vine St goods has got a loco at the east end, so I wondered whether they only accessed it in the eastbound direction. I'm pretty certain that there were no freight services coming onto the Met from the east, and the position of Vine St would have made it extremely awkward to work from the Widened Lines side. I would imagine that trains for Vine Street would come in from the GW, reverse clear of the Outer Rail to be unloaded, then presumably either a light engine and van, or a rake of empty wagons would depart heading east and reverse at Moorgate. I can see no other way that such a cramped site could be worked efficiently

[adanapress]

There was definitely a short and steeply rising shunt neck/engine spur at Farringdon, headed westwards from the goods depot,

and with buffers under the second (trolleybus turn) "grid-iron" road bridge, and adjacent to the safety handrails of the Widened Lines dive-under cutting.. I think I can remember a J52 standing there , but it was a long, long time ago.....

[L49]

There were two sidings on that side at Farringdon, one was the headshunt for the GNR depot which was accessed from the Widened lines, and the other was a short spur for the Snow Hill banker. I sat down with Alan Jackson's Metropolitan book yesterday and did a bit of reading around Vine Street, which might give a good operatin rationale for the layout. Firstly it was one of the first goods depots built in ondon for electric only operation. The two sidings were long enough to accomodate seven wagons each with a loading platform between them. Initally there was a 1ton lift instaled, but that was not sufficient for the traffic, so a 2 ton goods lift was installed a couple of years later, along with a spiral staircase which had to be enclosed by a galvanised mesh apparently to stop the tunnel rats from getting into the depot building at street level and eating all the stored goodies!

 

Trains were tripped in from West Hampstead goods yard in the off peak, and were limited to 14 wagons per train, which could be broken up in the sidings without causing too much disruption to the Met and Circle. It must have been quite a slick operation nonetheless!

 

From the modelling point of view, I would say it gives you a great oppurtunity to provide a single siding for 7 wagons, a loco and a brake, with some kind of street level facility. You can model all the track level bits including the spiral stairs and lifts. I think it would give you a great little focal point for the front of the baseboard hiding the fiddle yard.

[Xerces Fobe2]

How about a cut down version of Watford Met station running 4-car Underground trains Panniers ob trip workings from the Croxley Tip and Bo Bo met locos would not be out of place either? http://www.flickr.com/photos/24772733@N05/3570341527/

 

Xerces Fobe

[Matloughe]

Good Evening,

 

Recently thanks to on-going negotiations I have secured the use of the second spare bedroom for my modelling activities - provided of course that the layout is able to be dismantled if we have guests; which is no problem really. Now I model generally the Southern Railway/Region however recently (Since I left London) I am seemingly yearning for a LU Based layout - above was some first stuttering attempts at trying to shoehorn lots of things into a confined space - which despite being prototypical to LT isn't really what I am after.

 

I've returned to the LU themed layout since my 12'x2' boards have a home. One design I have hit on which I really seem to like is based loosely on Uxbridge - its still very much a work in progress I have managed to sort the station throat and platforms into 8' of space leaving a 4' fiddleyard. One aspect I particularly like about Uxbridge and Cockfosters is the overall roof spanning the three tracks - despite being concrete and glass it is very elegantly designed and offers fantastic illumination and sense of space inside.

From the scenic break - which will be an overbridge spanning the line and concrete cutting. There is another cross-over out of shot below this photo.

 

The Right hand side will be the 'front', on the left is a Southern Railway M7 which is deputising for a Met Bo-Bo to check clearance on the run around-loop; the two are similar in length with a Bo-Bo being marginally longer so this has been taken into account. Also I am planning the station will see the odd Southern Railway/Region Train at times so somewhere nearby it is connected to the National Rail Network - I had toyed with the idea that the station takes the rough place of somewhere like Moorgate on the City Widened Lines - but seeing regular Underground Trains and Peak Hour/infrequent Southern, London Midland and Eastern Region trains. Allowing me to run my EPB in and out or the fantastic Thompson L1 and rake of suburban coaches etc.

 

From the Station Concourse Area; the two canopy supports mark the end of the overall roof with open platforms beyond.

An interesting issue I have to get around is that the canopies at Uxbridge and Cockfosters only have to cover three lines symmetrically - however as can be seen my left hand line has a run-around loop to allow Loco Hauled services into the station also the point from the loop headshunt I am thinking will go on and develop into a small fan of sidings for trains to come out of service between the peaks and stable. Now I was thinking that if I arranged the concrete supports correctly on the run around loop side the trains could squeeze between two supports and out into the open air while the right-hand platform will be adjacent to a retaining wall like at the real Uxbridge.

 

Overview of the station throat - a Loco siding here would allow say a Met Dreadnought train to pull in and a second locomotive take the train out rather then clog the run-around loop up: offers two forms of getting the trains in and out of the station to keep some interest.

The platforms I should mention are long enough for a Large(ish) tank engine and three 64' Mark I's to fit in with some space; my reckoning is this will be long enough for 4/5 car underground trains. Or a Bo-Bo and three (maybe four at a push) Dreadnoughts. What I am thinking is the back of the layout behind the M7 up to the scenic break will be a concrete or possibly a Brick outside of the station retaining wall that will gradually slope inwards towards the bridge across the station throat - not sure about a signalbox between the bridge and the end of the loco siding. For the foreground I am considering a fan of three sidings possibly with a fourth kick-back siding between the front of the board an the run-around loop. Also the stabling sidings could extend onto the third board in front of the fiddle-yard - possibly in the form of a truncated connection to somewhere else...

 

I'd like to hear any opinions, criticisms or comments its very much a learning curve for me as I've committed myself to a very different modelling scene now. From what I am used to.

 

Cheers,

~ Gary

[Xerces Fobe2]

Hi Gary

 

Have you considered Watford Met as a layout based on that station could be accommodated on your baseboards and give you more scope for a variety of workings besides the usual Met Line workings such as Class 24/25 on freight - Pannier Tanks running around the Croxley Tip trains and even passenger workings to Marylebone and Aylesbury being another possibility?

 

Nigel

[Matloughe]

Good Morning Nigel,

 

I did consider Watford Met initially as your suggestion seemed like a good place to start it ticked the boxes quite nicely; the only issue I had was I couldn't fit (with my track to hand) a prototypical track-plan into the space. Plus currently I can't afford the items for a Scissors cross-over, I know I can 'bash' a reasonable looking one out of Peco Streamline track-work if I put my mind and money towards it.

What happened is I went away and then came up with an impression of Uxbridge. Perhaps I should go to bed and do some more reading - a MET station would definitely fit better with my ideals.

 

Other issue is despite me deciding to do this layout based on LU practice I find myself still - unwilling or unable to part with what is left of my Southern Region stock - my collection has been scaled back enormously it is a mere shadow if itself but these last bits I don't want to get rid of. Which limits the scope of a LU layout if I intend to add in the odd SR Slammer or visitor. Plus my LT Stock is an Acton Shuttle, Dreadnought All Third and a Small Met Brakevan currently - not even enough to create a train yet.

Oh I do have a non-powered EFE 1938 Stock Driving Motor branded for the Misery (Northern) Line as well.

 

Cheers,

~ Gary