rsv1000r Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 That is Potassium Bromide you are alluding to. Supposed to be the opposite of Viagra. Used a bit in hospitals, I believe. If it was used during WW2 it didn't work very well! I seem to recall that Bromine tanks on the road used rubber lined tanks to prevent corrosion. I would have thought that a lead lined tank would be prohibitively heavy even for rail use. Doubt if any crane available then would have been able to lift such a beast well there must've been cranes available, as the design of demontable tank carried on the conflat A's were of 5ton capacity, some others being 7.5 & 10ton capacity, so regardless of being rubber or lead lined, this would only effect the tare weight not the gross Nigel Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold big jim Posted August 23, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 23, 2011 all the former octel/great lakes ISO containers that are used for road haulage are lead lined, there are 14t and 18t varieties, empty they weigh between 5 and 7 tons, the 14 and 18 are the gross weights loaded (iirc), there is also a white "octel" tank that is of a completly different design (and a pig to work on!!), none of the above can be convayed by rail though (in the uk) next down there is the 7.5 ton tanks, different varieties but all VERY similar in the one in the first post picture, 7.5 ton being the gross bromine weight, iirc they weigh about 2.2tons so around 10 tons loaded, i certainly never dealt with any tanks of a 10 ton capacity while i worked there there are also smaller "goslar" lead lined containers that are 3.5 ton capacity, weighing about 1.5 ton empty so 5 ton approx loaded, i used to use that size to decant into 1.1 litre bottles and we used a "Hyster" forklift to pick them up using a lifting rig attached to the ISO lifting frame the 3.5 ton goslar can also be mounted into a special ISO container holding 4 of them so a good 23 ton gross, when we had them delivered like that it was a crane hire job!! going down in size again there are various vessels including 140-85l tanks, as produced by my stepdads company, these can be lead lined or PVDF lined, never rubber lined!! there are also other various shapes and sizes of pots to suit individual customers needs including a few 350l pots, againlead lined or in some cases PVDF some info can be found here if you like that sort of thing www.cccrump.com as you can imagine the maintainance of these vessels is something that is taken very seriously, they are inspected every year and have a hydraulic test very 5 years which is inspected by an outside orginisation, a bit like a steam engine boiler, when i left it was BV (beaurau veritas) who did the testing. all the valves are tested and have diaphragms changed if required, safety valves are serviced and recalibrated etc, that job was a pain sometimes if it wouldn't re-seat, could be a 1/2 day job to get it to work properly, grinding the faces with paste etc!! all the valve studs and nuts were renewed andthe manlid bolts cleaned or renewed as required, putting the tanks back together was done with brute force, started the bolts with an airgun (were talking M30 nuts here!!) then taken to the specified torque with a blinking big torque wrench (about 4 ft long!!) to stop the PVDF lined gasket getting split etc if you want a mind numbing read have a look at this (there are some pics of "Goslar" bromine vessels on page 21 though) http://www.icl-ip.com/brome/brome.nsf/viewAllByUNID/125C9520BA6E1C10C225762400553BE8/$file/1_10_Bromine_Handbook_web_06_03.pdf Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rsv1000r Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 well there must've been cranes available, as the design of demontable tank carried on the conflat A's were of 5ton capacity, some others being 7.5 & 10ton capacity, so regardless of being rubber or lead lined, this would only effect the tare weight not the gross Nigel sorry jim should probably put loaded rather than capacity Nigel Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
D869 Posted August 23, 2011 Author Share Posted August 23, 2011 I have posted the very few I have (but there were only three of them) http://paulbartlett.....com/dowbromine Excellent photos. Thanks Paul. The end cradle design on these certainly seems to match the one visible in Dave Larkin's photo, so the participants in this thread have now idenitified four designs of vehicle used for Hayle Bromine traffic in the early 1970s. This is much better than I expected. I wonder what they used in earlier times - the plant started work in the early 1940s... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold big jim Posted August 23, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 23, 2011 Im pretty sure crumps still have a couple of barrels from those dow bromine wagons in the yard as they cut them up but kept the barrels for spares Im working on getting some drawings for the 7.5t tank, if not certainly some pics of the ones still in existance Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold big jim Posted August 23, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 23, 2011 As a slight aside ive got this in my garage, keep meaning to ebay it but its a bit heavy to post! Any clues as to what wagon it may be off, definatly a railway wagon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
D869 Posted August 23, 2011 Author Share Posted August 23, 2011 Im working on getting some drawings for the 7.5t tank, if not certainly some pics of the ones still in existance I'll hold off starting my model for now then... actually won't be very difficult because it's quite a way down my 'to do' list right now and making domed tank ends without a lathe is a bit of a conundrum... as are the two body flanges on the demountable tanks. Regards, Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 Any clues as to what wagon it may be off, definatly a railway wagon The number is a big help and as might almost be expected, Paul Bartlett (thanks Paul) comes up trumps, first in black and white and then in colour. Your plate (or it's pair) clearly visible in the centre of the solebar. Adam Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold big jim Posted August 23, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 23, 2011 nice one, just been looking on pauls site but looking at the bromine tanks rather than chlorine tanks, thanks for that Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmrspaul Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 The history of the bromine traffic from Hayle (and other Associated Octel traffic) is discussed in Fidczuk, Peter (2007) Gas by Rail: Part 4 Associated Octel and Tank Rentals in Railway Archive no. 16 pages 57 - 82 and both front and back page. This is available from Lightmoor Press. Ethylene dibromide was another associated traffic There are a few photographs in this collection http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/associatedocteltankwagon Paul Bartlett Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold big jim Posted August 24, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 24, 2011 Here is a reply from derek at c c crump........... Both tanks (inc pic sent by pm) used by AOC from the early 70s through to the mid 90s. 7.5T were built by Staveleys for AOC - have original drawings but they are A0 size so difficult to copy- 8 in total Railcars built by Charles Roberts (I think) with barrels by Staveleys in the 70s - I think I've still got barrel drawings - 6 in total. Last used in 90's by Albermarle in conjunction with 8 on hire from VTG All these units were scrapped by me in ~ 2000 Derek Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
D869 Posted August 24, 2011 Author Share Posted August 24, 2011 The history of the bromine traffic from Hayle (and other Associated Octel traffic) is discussed in Fidczuk, Peter (2007) Gas by Rail: Part 4 Associated Octel and Tank Rentals in Railway Archive no. 16 pages 57 - 82 and both front and back page. This is available from Lightmoor Press. Thanks... Credit card coming out again... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
D869 Posted August 24, 2011 Author Share Posted August 24, 2011 have original drawings but they are A0 size so difficult to copy- 8 in total Great info Jim. Thanks for contacting these folks. Shame about the drawings. The sad thing is that unwieldy drawings of obsolete things can have a tendency to end up in just one place when companies have their periodic clear-outs... and I don't mean the local archive office :-( Would a digital camera pic of the A0 drawing work? I've had usable results photographing dining table-sized historical maps this way. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
D869 Posted August 24, 2011 Author Share Posted August 24, 2011 The number is a big help and as might almost be expected, Paul Bartlett (thanks Paul) comes up trumps, first in black and white and then in colour. I notice that the chlorine tank has a yellow 'CC' sticker on the near end. Does that refer to 'CC Crump' as the builder/maintainer or does it have some other meaning? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AberdeenBill Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 CC = commuted charge, see: http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/gansg/6-livy/odds/9-poliv.htm Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold big jim Posted August 24, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 24, 2011 Shame about the drawings. The sad thing is that unwieldy drawings of obsolete things can have a tendency to end up in just one place when companies have their periodic clear-outs... and I don't mean the local archive office :-( hence why c.c.crumps original wagon drawings archive is under my stairs now as there are a few changes going on at the offices at the moment, better to keep them safe out of harms way i may have a go at photographing some of the wagon drawings but they are hand drawn (i.e by a draftsman) on a see through plastic type paper a was the done thing in the 70s, pre computer Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rsv1000r Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 hence why c.c.crumps original wagon drawings archive is under my stairs now as there are a few changes going on at the offices at the moment, better to keep them safe out of harms way i may have a go at photographing some of the wagon drawings but they are hand drawn (i.e by a draftsman) on a see through plastic type paper a was the done thing in the 70s, pre computer Shhhhh!!! don't tell everyone Jim! Nigel Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold big jim Posted August 24, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 24, 2011 There is so much useful stuff!! Even the original proposal for the rudd wagons!! Amd thats barely scratching the surface Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
D869 Posted August 31, 2011 Author Share Posted August 31, 2011 I had a quick wander around the site of the Octel works at Hayle yesterday. The whole North Quay area is being redeveloped (a marina and posh apartments I gather) and is currently being dug up for the installation of sewers and so on. I think I saw somewhere that the remaining Octel buildings will be retained - they are certainly still there just now but the boundary wall has been partly demolished, so it's possible to see parts of the buildings that were not previously visible. I find the whole Hayle area fascinating because of its rich industrial history. I have mixed feelings about redevelopment - I hope that it brings some sustainable prosperity to the town but I also hope that they don't lose any more evidence of Hayle's history in the process. Here are a few photos... 3 pics of the two office buildings. A view back over the whole Octel site with some remaining rails (just) visible in the road. These rails were probably related to the power station. The only other rails I could find were these ones near the swimming pool These appear to be stone sleeper blocks of a much older vintage - possibly dating back to the original Hayle Railway Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
winterbournecm Posted September 1, 2011 Share Posted September 1, 2011 My father has cine film of the wharves, some of which has sadly perished over time. He has movie footage of D800s climbing the bank with the Bromide tanks nicely marshalled next to the fuel tankers. He also has breif footage of the train having divided on the steep bank, which I'm sure was a Bromide tank. let me know if this would be of any use and I'll take a look for you. I have some pictures from the 80s of the branch, and my friend Roger Winnen ahs some early 70s shots too. Cheers Craig. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
D869 Posted September 2, 2011 Author Share Posted September 2, 2011 My father has cine film of the wharves, some of which has sadly perished over time. He has movie footage of D800s climbing the bank with the Bromide tanks nicely marshalled next to the fuel tankers. He also has breif footage of the train having divided on the steep bank, which I'm sure was a Bromide tank. let me know if this would be of any use and I'll take a look for you. I have some pictures from the 80s of the branch, and my friend Roger Winnen ahs some early 70s shots too. Craig, Thanks for your post. I think that all of these things would be very interesting to me and probably some other folks who have contributed to this topic, so if you could share them then that would be great. Regards, Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Porcy Mane Posted September 2, 2011 Share Posted September 2, 2011 Craig, A couple of documents that you may find some interesting phots in. http://www.historic-...ment_report.pdf http://www.hayle.net...RevB_080424.pdf No rolling stock but plenty of background info. Porcy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eastwestdivide Posted September 2, 2011 Share Posted September 2, 2011 Bit late to the party, but here's a couple of bromine ferry tanks at Hoo Junction in 1984. One at least (001) is labelled Dow Chemical King's Lynn. No idea where they were to/from. 23 70 749 0 001-8 43 70 749 0 297-8 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmrspaul Posted September 2, 2011 Share Posted September 2, 2011 Bit late to the party, but here's a couple of bromine ferry tanks at Hoo Junction in 1984. One at least (001) is labelled Dow Chemical King's Lynn. No idea where they were to/from. 23 70 749 0 001-8 43 70 749 0 297-8 You did very well there, very nice. Dozens of visits to Hoo, but never saw anything so unusual. Hoo seemed to give a refuge to traffic to and from the Continental ferries and I would expect they are off to Continental Europe. Paul Bartlett Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eastwestdivide Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 What struck me about those at Hoo Junction, was how small the tanks were compared to the rest of the wagon. Is that because of the weight, or is it a safety thing (keep it out of harm's way? Or maybe a bit of both? When I saw POISON AND CORROSIVE on the side, I nearly pedalled off home sharpish. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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