Do you agree with this assessment of the Hammant and Morgan controllers ?

[brian777999]

 

Back on the subject of H&M, my Duette (circa 1965) is now normally used as a power-supply, but I still occasionally run trains with it.  Set on full-wave and high-resistance it controls my Portescap and Mashima powered locos beautifully.

 

Cheers, Dave.

 

What are the half wave and low resistance settings used for ?

[Junctionmad]

There’s nothing in H&M controllers that can’t be duplicated or bettered with about 5 quid of electronic components these days

Edited February 26, 2018 by Junctionmad

[Titan]

What are the half wave and low resistance settings used for ?

 

Low resistance for old motors that draw higher currents, High resistance for modern motors. 

 

Half wave good for keeping sticky motors moving at low speed.

 

The H&M can still control any motor at any speed, even a modern motor can be made to crawl with the switches set appropriately,  just as long as you don't mind that speed not being particularly constant!

[brian777999]

There’s nothing in H&M controllers that can’t be duplicated or bettered with about 5 quid of electronic components these days

 

Then why do the H&M controllers perform so much better than most of the modern ones...especially when it comes to slow speed control ? 

[andyman7]

Interesting thread. Does anyone know anything about H&M the company? Surely they made other electrical items other than Model Railway controllers. When did they start out and when did they go bust (I assume they stopped manufacture before Hornby took the name)

It's a bit more complicated than that. Back in the 1970s, the Hornby (ex-Triang) range was manufactured by Rovex Ltd, and they were aware that their controllers were not really considered high quality. Rovex's owning company was Dunbee-Combex-Marx (DCM), and they acquired H&M to broaden the group's capabilities in terms of model railway control. However, the recession struck and H&M were closed down as a separate company. As an aside, my friend's dad at school was one of those laid off as a result, and he and some colleagues set up SEEP ('Sandown Electronic Engineering Products') making point motors and other bits and pieces. SEEP was eventually sold to Gaugemaster who still make the point motors my friend's dad helped design....

Some of the H&M product range did get made at Margate for a while but the DCM went under and Rovex Ltd was sold in a management buyout to become Hornby Hobbies (the current company) and that's where things ended. If you ever get to see a Hornby R918 controller, it's an H&M Rocket badged as Hornby.

 

 

 

I've still got several old controllers, I do think the Duette was a great piece of kit in it's time, and it's good for running vintage stuff. I wouldn't suggest anyone searches one out in preference to a modern controller and these days any I've acquired have been for peanuts - some dealers still ask far too much for what is obsolete kit. 

Edited February 26, 2018 by andyman7

[Junctionmad]

Then why do the H&M controllers perform so much better than most of the modern ones...especially when it comes to slow speed control ?

 

I have one , a Duette. Can’t agree it’s better at slow speed then a decent electronic controller , especially one with feedback, the H&M stuff was largely a product of the pre-transistor age , very little to commend it today. Edited February 28, 2018 by Junctionmad

[Darwinian]

Same here. It's not as if it's very difficult to make electronic controllers operate that way although it is a bit more expensive, but not much.

 

Might be interesting to take a poll to see how many others agree.

My Morley controler has the 12 o'clock off style of control knob. I also have on old H&M walkabout which has a switch for direction and a vertical slider for speed. Can't say I particularly prefer either method but the More modern Morley does give better control. As an aside one of the inertia settings on the H&M never worked properly and has packed up altogether now.  My only criticism of the Morley is that there is hardly any "click" sensation at 12 o'clock on the main controller knobs so it is easy to go just past it and then find a loco crawling off down the track that I thought I'd stopped. The Morely hand helds have a helpfully more obvious click sensation so I tend to use them more.

[RJS1977]

My Morley controler has the 12 o'clock off style of control knob. I also have on old H&M walkabout which has a switch for direction and a vertical slider for speed. Can't say I particularly prefer either method but the More modern Morley does give better control. As an aside one of the inertia settings on the H&M never worked properly and has packed up altogether now.  My only criticism of the Morley is that there is hardly any "click" sensation at 12 o'clock on the main controller knobs so it is easy to go just past it and then find a loco crawling off down the track that I thought I'd stopped. The Morely hand helds have a helpfully more obvious click sensation so I tend to use them more.

 

I remember operating a friend's layout with one of the walkabout slider controllers at a show a few years ago. It took me a while to realise that the reason the train i was driving was getting faster when i was trying to slow it down was because I was holding the controller the wrong way up!

[Dave B]

Lol! Great that this thread is still going after so long. I posted back in 2014 the picture of the friable looking substrate holding the resistance wires of the pot / rheostat (?) but I have to admit I have not got around to getting the material tested for asbestos. Instead I put my old Duettes up in the loft. I still use my Powermaster because I know that is not asbestos based.

 

However, I am posting today to answer the debated question here -- why use H&M controllers as opposed to a high performing modern controller, or to be more precise, why do I use them. --- NOSTALGIA!

 

Way, way back in the early 1960's I saved up all my paper round money to buy my Powermaster still in use today and in good working order. And what I really drooled after in the catalogues and under the glass counter in the Surbiton Model Shop, was the set up shown below of the Powermaster with a couple of ancillary control units working off the Powermaster and lots of track switching.

 

 

The isolated variable transformer along with the well thought out connect together unit construction was the absolute Bee's Knees at the time and was a quantum step ahead of what else was on the market. The two units either side of the Powermaster take their low voltage supply from the Powermaster negating the need for several mains leads and the expense of individual transformers. It appealed to my sense of form and function immensely.

 

The half wave control and the low impedance output of the Powermaster again was cutting edge, though of course the add on controllers lacked those features, but hey, you can't have everything. Above all it was the styling for me. The previous H&M models had the curved edges but manufactured items of the time were moving from flowing curves to sharp angular forms. Have a look at car stylings of the time. The styling shown above was the one on sale when I bought my Powermaster and which I want for my layout. The next H&M style came from tilting the cases (or so it looked to me) on their back to give a control panel closer to the vertical. Ergonomically inferior considering we tower over our controllers as we sit in front of our layout, and from my point of view simply WRONG! Very important was the lovely chunky control knob with tactile feedback as you ran it over the transformer windings. Also important was being able to reverse direction of loco travel by simply turning the control in the other direction. None of this dangerous slide switch which could be thrown whilst the engine was going full steam ahead, leading to goodness knows what damage. And a nice control knob centre off clunk.

 

Anyway, into the 70's and that curse of a thing called work and having to pay the mortgage got in the way and I didn't dig out my Powermaster and Hornbydublo until 30 years later and I found this wonderful thing called e-bay where you could buy all the stuff you wanted when you were a kid! And I now had the money. So I have picked up a few H&M units. Prices seem to be rising now so I suppose other old geezers like me have found e-bay. Soz about that.

 

Anyway, Keep Safe and isolate as best you can, as we all say nowadays. The better we do this, the sooner this Fuucking pandemic will be sorted. And take the vaccination as soon as you can. Rock on All and Merry Christmas!

 

 

[Dave B]

Oh dear, just found this concerning asbestos in some of the H&M units. It is from a manual written by H&M see page 28 "Airflow Resistance Mat". http://www.stable-cottage-potterne.co.uk/HM3000/HM_11thEd.pdf  I have to have a rethink about what I do with my Duettes now. I can not have my grandchildren around them!

 

[DCB]

10 hours ago, Dave B said:

Oh dear, just found this concerning asbestos in some of the H&M units. It is from a manual written by H&M see page 28 "Airflow Resistance Mat". http://www.stable-cottage-potterne.co.uk/HM3000/HM_11thEd.pdf  I have to have a rethink about what I do with my Duettes now. I can not have my grandchildren around them!

 

 

My Duette found a new home in a skip.  These things are as old as the hills and have metal cases so don 't use them without opening up the case and checking for damaged or non existent insulation, especially on 1970s ones 

The variable transformers, Safety Minor etc don't have the rheostats and don't seem to have any asbestos, but they don't go down below 5 about volts, a crawl for an H/D Duchess but a canter for a Bachmann 45XX so it a buzzy half wave crawl for Bachmann and silky smooth shunting for 60 year old Hornby Dublo  

Really you want  simple electronic controller, £3 worth of bits retailing at £50.

Best one I know of is the Morley but they don't seem to do single units, so we use half a Vector, 2 OnTrack units and three H&M Safety Minors at present.  If Morley did single units  then we would acquire several more as their hand held add ons are brilliant

[AndyID]

11 hours ago, Dave B said:

Oh dear, just found this concerning asbestos in some of the H&M units. It is from a manual written by H&M see page 28 "Airflow Resistance Mat". http://www.stable-cottage-potterne.co.uk/HM3000/HM_11thEd.pdf  I have to have a rethink about what I do with my Duettes now. I can not have my grandchildren around them!

 

 

 

Just get rid of it as safely as possible. It's not just the asbestos. They used selenium rectifiers. Selenium is pretty nasty stuff. The rectifiers don't fail that often but they won't last forever either. Statistically you'll probably be OK as long as you don't mind becoming a statistic that proves the point.

 

 

[hayfield]

I have three of them still, one is used as a power pack for modern electronic controllers which are far better for layout use with modern motors

 

The other two I use on the work bench (one at a time). Built like tanks and very reliable 

[Dave B]

On 14/12/2020 at 04:41, AndyID said:

Just get rid of it as safely as possible. It's not just the asbestos. They used selenium rectifiers. Selenium is pretty nasty stuff. The rectifiers don't fail that often but they won't last forever either. Statistically you'll probably be OK as long as you don't mind becoming a statistic that proves the point.

 

 

Yes, I have to admit I was concerned about the selenium rectifiers but didn't realise just how nasty they could be. A little research on line brings up plenty of advice on them.

[Dave B]

I was given a Duette that was making a buzzing noise. The first thing that I saw was that the case had been riveted in place, instead of the self tapping screws I have noted in all my other H&M controllers. In view of the possibility of there being asbestos inside, I did wonder if this was H&M's response to the presence of the asbestos. They could have deemed it safe if it can not be disturbed. In the pic you can clearly see the material holding the nichrome wire of the rheostat / potentiometer to be a white flaky material which could well be asbestos.  It is apparently the flaky nature that indicates the hazard. The asbestos dust of around 5 microns in size can be breathed in but can not be removed by the body and remains in the lungs doing mechanical damage to the vulnerable parts of the lungs which can result in cancers 20 years later.

 

This Duette does not have selenium rectifiers but has two bridge circuits using 1N4002 silicon diodes which are 1 Amp, 100V rating. This worries me because the output of each half of the Duette is rated at 1 Amp, so presumably the thermal cutouts shown beside the diodes are set to trip at slightly more than an amp, and considering the comparative slow cut out time of the thermal device, I would think that the diodes could be subject to quite a bit of stress in normal operation. Coupled to that, I would also have to wonder if the inductive spikes that can be caused by making and breaking the current through the inductance of the transformer (L dI/dt ) exceed 100V.  

 

You can see that the transformer itself has two separate windings, one for mains and one for the 16V secondary windings and thus complying with double insulation requirements, not needing or having an earth. I think this dates this particular Duette to later than the mid 70's. Mind you, I am not impressed with the cardboard type material that is separating  the mains connections to the transformer windings from the case metal work. You can see this in the picture as the blue sheet just behind the nut and bolt holding the cable clamp. 

 

The fault with this particular Duette would appear to be something causing one of the thermal cut outs to oscillate on and off with a period of about a second. Either a faulty cut out or a short circuit somewhere in the circuit such as a faulty diode. In any case, looking at the state of the asbestos looking material I am loathe to investigate any further.

 

Edited December 23, 2020 by Dave B
addition of info

[Dave B]

Basically I don't think I could recommend these old H&M controllers.

[Danemouth]

1 hour ago, Dave B said:

I was given a Duette that was making a buzzing noise. The first thing that I saw was that the case had been riveted in place, instead of the self tapping screws I have noted in all my other H&M controllers. In view of the possibility of there being asbestos inside, I did wonder if this was H&M's response to the presence of the asbestos. They could have deemed it safe if it can not be disturbed. In the pic you can clearly see the material holding the nichrome wire of the rheostat / potentiometer to be a white flaky material which could well be asbestos.  It is apparently the flaky nature that indicates the hazard. The asbestos dust of around 5 microns in size can be breathed in but can not be removed by the body and remains in the lungs doing mechanical damage to the vulnerable parts of the lungs which can result in cancers 20 years later.

 

This Duette does not have selenium rectifiers but has two bridge circuits using 1N4002 silicon diodes which are 1 Amp, 100V rating. This worries me because the output of each half of the Duette is rated at 1 Amp, so presumably the thermal cutouts shown beside the diodes are set to trip at slightly more than an amp, and considering the comparative slow cut out time of the thermal device, I would think that the diodes could be subject to quite a bit of stress in normal operation. Coupled to that, I would also have to wonder if the inductive spikes that can be caused by making and breaking the current through the inductance of the transformer (L dI/dt ) exceed 100V.  

 

You can see that the transformer itself has two separate windings, one for mains and one for the 16V secondary windings and thus complying with double insulation requirements, not needing or having an earth. I think this dates this particular Duette to later than the mid 70's. Mind you, I am not impressed with the cardboard type material that is separating  the mains connections to the transformer windings from the case metal work. You can see this in the picture as the blue sheet just behind the nut and bolt holding the cable clamp. 

 

The fault with this particular Duette would appear to be something causing one of the thermal cut outs to oscillate on and off with a period of about a second. Either a faulty cut out or a short circuit somewhere in the circuit such as a faulty diode. In any case, looking at the state of the asbestos looking material I am loathe to investigate any further.

 

 

My advice having owned a Clipper is to cut the mains lead off and dispose of it safely.

 

Dave

[AndyID]

5 hours ago, Dave B said:

I think this dates this particular Duette to later than the mid 70's.

 

I think you are correct. It's definitely later than the mid-sixties when 1N4002 diodes became available. They were probably quite expensive then too

 

That does look like asbestos. I think Dave has the right idea. I'd seal it up in a strong plastic bag and handle it as little as possible.

[kevinlms]

9 hours ago, AndyID said:

 

I think you are correct. It's definitely later than the mid-sixties when 1N4002 diodes became available. They were probably quite expensive then too

 

That does look like asbestos. I think Dave has the right idea. I'd seal it up in a strong plastic bag and handle it as little as possible.

It certainly looks like it has asbestos. Would have thought that by now, these controllers will have turned up on an official list by now.

 

Must have been multiple 10s of 1000s made, as they were built for 40 years or more. Certainly every Railway of the Month, stated that they used them!

[cliff park]

I would like to reduce the asbestos hysteria. Don't get me wrong, it is nasty stuff. But it is possible to cope with it. If you want to open these controllers up do it outdoors, wear a mask ( you might already have  one!!), and observe good hygiene practices, hand washing etc. My dad was a builder and worked with asbestos for about 65 years and suffered no consequences. A friend of mine spent 6  months as a young man insulating the pipes of a power station with it and died at 52. The trick is not to breathe it in. It is not poisonous. 

[AndyID]

17 minutes ago, cliff park said:

I would like to reduce the asbestos hysteria. Don't get me wrong, it is nasty stuff. But it is possible to cope with it. If you want to open these controllers up do it outdoors, wear a mask ( you might already have  one!!), and observe good hygiene practices, hand washing etc. My dad was a builder and worked with asbestos for about 65 years and suffered no consequences. A friend of mine spent 6  months as a young man insulating the pipes of a power station with it and died at 52. The trick is not to breathe it in. It is not poisonous. 

 

There is no "hysteria". It's just common sense based on what we know now compared with what we knew then. A "poison" is something that call kill you. The horrible truth about asbestos is that it can kill someone, and it has killed many. Playing around with the semantics of "poison" serves no one.

[Suzie]

1N400x diodes are 1A rating, but in a full bridge rectifier they are only in use half of the time so the bridge is 2A continuous rated when used on an AC transformer as in the H&M controllers and will handle a big surge for a short time without issue.

 

 

 

 

[roythebus1]

If these units are left unopened then I don't see the internal components being of any real danger to anybody. If it ain't broke, don't try to fix it. If it is, skip it.

 

H&M went over to double insulation in about 1968 but still used the old type rectifiers until the early 1970s. I still use a pair of new Duettes on my layout and they seem to work very well with modern motors.

[kevinlms]

3 minutes ago, roythebus1 said:

If these units are left unopened then I don't see the internal components being of any real danger to anybody. If it ain't broke, don't try to fix it. If it is, skip it.

 

H&M went over to double insulation in about 1968 but still used the old type rectifiers until the early 1970s. I still use a pair of new Duettes on my layout and they seem to work very well with modern motors.

As I've previously stated in this thread, the resistance mat was available with different resistances. If yours is a higher resistance ratings, it will work better on more modern motors.

No idea how you tell the difference though!

[rodent279]

On 24/12/2020 at 08:52, Suzie said:

1N400x diodes are 1A rating, but in a full bridge rectifier they are only in use half of the time so the bridge is 2A continuous rated when used on an AC transformer as in the H&M controllers and will handle a big surge for a short time without issue.

 

 

 

 

IIRC, the last digit denotes the maximum reverse voltage in multiples of 100, so a1N4002 has a 200v reverse rating.