Do you agree with this assessment of the Hammant and Morgan controllers ?

[SHMD]

From Kevin's link, this is the relevant bit...

 

 

Two words that should make you think!

 

 

Kev.

 

 

[DCB]

1 hour ago, SHMD said:

From Kevin's link, this is the relevant bit...

 

 

Two words that should make you think!

 

 

Kev.

 

 

 

Yes. if you have an H&M transformer take the lid off and check the resistance mat.  The fibre one is rubbish as it doesn't have the porosity of the asbestos one  The Asbestos one has fibres which are not good for you.  Basically if it has a resistance mat screw the lid back on and sell it. 

The ones with no resistance mat are the ones to go for, Safety Minors and the like.  Chalk and cheese compared to Duettes and the like.

My last Duette, almost unused and 40 years old had a dry joint on one controller, must have been like it from new, it would pack up and then need a good clout every few weeks.   I fixed it and sold it on eBay

Asbestosis kills but look at the way folk worked in clouds of asbestos dust, and look how the stuff lasts, our 

[Free At Last]

I remember in the '50s we used to toast bread on an asbestos mat over the gas ring.

Edited March 16, 2021 by Free At Last

[kevinlms]

17 hours ago, DavidCBroad said:

 

Yes. if you have an H&M transformer take the lid off and check the resistance mat.  The fibre one is rubbish as it doesn't have the porosity of the asbestos one  The Asbestos one has fibres which are not good for you.  Basically if it has a resistance mat screw the lid back on and sell it. 

The ones with no resistance mat are the ones to go for, Safety Minors and the like.  Chalk and cheese compared to Duettes and the like.

My last Duette, almost unused and 40 years old had a dry joint on one controller, must have been like it from new, it would pack up and then need a good clout every few weeks.   I fixed it and sold it on eBay

Asbestosis kills but look at the way folk worked in clouds of asbestos dust, and look how the stuff lasts, our 

Legally you can't sell or give away any item containing asbestos.  The Duettes do because it says so in their last catalogue.

[Crosswood]

Late to the party, as ever! I've just come across this thread and you've frightened me to death! If the asbestos doesn't get me, then maybe the selenium will - or possibly straightforward electrocution.

 

I use my 2ndhand Duette (power lead insulation looks sound) to run modern locos on a double loop layout (cab control)  with shunting yard and extension. 

 

What would wise people on here suggest as a replacement?

[Titan]

7 minutes ago, Crosswood said:

Late to the party, as ever! I've just come across this thread and you've frightened me to death! If the asbestos doesn't get me, then maybe the selenium will - or possibly straightforward electrocution.

 

I use my 2ndhand Duette (power lead insulation looks sound) to run modern locos on a double loop layout (cab control)  with shunting yard and extension. 

 

What would wise people on here suggest as a replacement?

 

You could replace the locos with Dublo? 

[RedgateModels]

On 26/02/2018 at 23:11, andyman7 said:

It's a bit more complicated than that. Back in the 1970s, the Hornby (ex-Triang) range was manufactured by Rovex Ltd, and they were aware that their controllers were not really considered high quality. Rovex's owning company was Dunbee-Combex-Marx (DCM), and they acquired H&M to broaden the group's capabilities in terms of model railway control. However, the recession struck and H&M were closed down as a separate company. As an aside, my friend's dad at school was one of those laid off as a result, and he and some colleagues set up SEEP ('Sandown Electronic Engineering Products') making point motors and other bits and pieces. SEEP was eventually sold to Gaugemaster who still make the point motors my friend's dad helped design....

Some of the H&M product range did get made at Margate for a while but the DCM went under and Rovex Ltd was sold in a management buyout to become Hornby Hobbies (the current company) and that's where things ended. If you ever get to see a Hornby R918 controller, it's an H&M Rocket badged as Hornby.

 

 

 

I've still got several old controllers, I do think the Duette was a great piece of kit in it's time, and it's good for running vintage stuff. I wouldn't suggest anyone searches one out in preference to a modern controller and these days any I've acquired have been for peanuts - some dealers still ask far too much for what is obsolete kit. 

 Digging up an old thread, I’m looking for an R918 to complete an apt set, if anyone has one spare ….

[andyman7]

1 hour ago, RedgateModels said:

 Digging up an old thread, I’m looking for an R918 to complete an apt set, if anyone has one spare ….

As it happens I may well have one - feel free to PM

[SamThomas]

IIRC H & M, in their last days produced a "Transistorised" controller, but I cannot remember if it were mains or 16v AC powered.

[Barclay]

On 04/01/2022 at 22:41, SamThomas said:

IIRC H & M, in their last days produced a "Transistorised" controller, but I cannot remember if it were mains or 16v AC powered.

They produced the Electran and the Commander. The former was mains as far as I can tell and the Commander 16V AC input.

[Titan]

Think they actually produced them for some time, but not so many were sold as they were more expensive than the resistance controllers.  A transistorised Duette would possibly have been the ultimate, perhaps surpassing the Powermaster, but sadly they never made one. 

[Dave B]

On 17/03/2021 at 03:15, kevinlms said:

Legally you can't sell or give away any item containing asbestos.  The Duettes do because it says so in their last catalogue.

A quick google confirms this is the case in Australia (very sensible!), but a longer google for the UK seems to show that our Health and Safety Executive  only give advisory guidance concerning the sale of asbestos containing equipment. There do not seem to be any laws or sanctions actually stopping selling it in the UK. 

Just to remind people, over 5000 people die of asbestos related diseases every year in the UK alone.

 

file:///C:/Users/Whato/Downloads/Asbestos-related_disease_statistics_Great_Britain_2022.pdf 

 

 

Edited July 26, 2023 by Dave B
add info

[Dave B]

The inside of my H&M Safety Minor showing no signs of anything asbestos so I will be happy to use it with my grandchildren. I have replaced the selenium rectifier with a semiconductor bridge rectifier on the rear panel. This is the rectifier on the controlled output. The remaining selenium rectifier that supplies the 16V DC can be seen on the right side of the case. I have no use for this supply so I may just remove the selenium rectifier rather than replace it with a semiconductor device.

 

The variable transformer mechanism can be seen bearing on the transformer secondary windings but the picture does not show the clever mechanism for moving the transformer wiper in the same direction whilst reversing the electrical output when moving the control through the centre off position. I didn't want to dismantle this mechanism, but simply changing the rectifiers presented no problem.

 

The semiconductor bridge rectifier is a KBPC2504 rated at 400V, 25 Amp that was on offer when I bought them. I would think there are others at a better price now. 25 Amp rating gives a sizable working margin which may not be necessary but for the money it made little difference. However, I would suggest rating any bridge at 400V to be able to cope with inductive spikes which it will be subjected to in use. I have observed spikes of this magnitude in transformers. It was also the same physical size and had a centre hole to be able to bolt it into place. 

 

In comparison, my Duette most certainly has what looks pretty much like asbestos. I can not find my pics of the Duette to show here though. After dismantling to have a look, it is presently in a sealed plastic bag in the back of my garage whilst I decide what to do with it.

 

 

 

[Dave B]

My H&M Duette showing rather flaky looking material which may be asbestos. Also note the use of 1N4002 diodes to replace the selenium rectifier. I think these are under rated at 1 Amp, 200 volts. 200 volts probably ok, but 400V versions 1N4004 at virtually no extra cost would be better. However, 1 amp is definitely under rated considering that the short circuit current could easily exceed several amps whilst the thermal cut-outs could take an excessive time to operate.  I would be happier with 1N504 diodes rated at 3 Amps.

[Barclay]

I believe the asbestos is only in the resistance controllers, i.e. Clipper and Duette, because it is part of the resistance mat. I wouldn't want to take either of those apart for that reason, but I still use them for 16V AC for my layout.

[AndyID]

1 hour ago, Dave B said:

My H&M Duette showing rather flaky looking material which may be asbestos. Also note the use of 1N4002 diodes to replace the selenium rectifier. I think these are under rated at 1 Amp, 200 volts. 200 volts probably ok, but 400V versions 1N4004 at virtually no extra cost would be better. However, 1 amp is definitely under rated considering that the short circuit current could easily exceed several amps whilst the thermal cut-outs could take an excessive time to operate.  I would be happier with 1N504 diodes rated at 3 Amps.

 

That IS asbestos. 

 

https://www.pennmedicine.org/cancer/types-of-cancer/mesothelioma/asbestos-cancer/types-of-asbestos

[cliff park]

Always remember that asbestos is perfectly fine UNLESS/UNTIL you disturb it. For instance drilling, sawing, filing, or breaking etc, especially indoors.

 

 

 

[kevinlms]

4 hours ago, cliff park said:

Always remember that asbestos is perfectly fine UNLESS/UNTIL you disturb it. For instance drilling, sawing, filing, or breaking etc, especially indoors.

 

 

 

Except that such cases are NOT airtight! Why use something KNOWN to contain asbestos, when they don't do a particularly good job at controlling trains anyway?

My use of known will p off 'GoingUnderground'. For which I won't be apologising!

[AndyID]

4 hours ago, cliff park said:

Always remember that asbestos is perfectly fine UNLESS/UNTIL you disturb it. For instance drilling, sawing, filing, or breaking etc, especially indoors.

 

 

 

 

That is generally true for things that combine asbestos with concrete but the resistance mats were made from woven asbestos which is not encased in anything. To what extent that form degrades over time due to vibration, shock and thermal cycling I do not know but you can see the exposed fibers in Dave's photos. Even the action of the wiper moving over the windings must disturb the asbestos to some extent.

 

I wouldn't chance it at all and I definitely would not allow children to get anywhere near those things. It's just not worth the risk.

 

EDIT: Come to think of it I would not be surprised if the incredibly small particles (which are the most dangerous) are subject to electrostatic action and there are plenty of charged bits in a controller.

Edited July 27, 2023 by AndyID
more info

[St Enodoc]

On 06/01/2022 at 19:56, Barclay said:

They produced the Electran and the Commander. The former was mains as far as I can tell and the Commander 16V AC input.

The Electran was an early model. The mains version of the Commander was the Executive (I've still got one).

[Baldy]

There is a Commander panel mount controller on eBay that I have been watching for a while whilst reading this thread. Link below if it works.  Reading some of the comments above, I was thinking it wouldn’t have the asbestos panel, but looking at eBay photos I am not so sure as it does look to have panel with wire wound round it. Could anyone say if it does look to have the asbestos part?  Thanks. 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/266320961055?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=UeQFN0tfSCS&sssrc=4429486&ssuid=&widget_ver=artemis&media=EMAIL

[fulton]

Looks like it could be asbestos, I would not take the risk, these old controllers, and some other old electrical equipment, needs to be disposed of properly, modern replacements are not expensive and generally better.

[Dave B]

On 27/07/2023 at 07:11, Baldy said:

There is a Commander panel mount controller on eBay that I have been watching for a while whilst reading this thread. Link below if it works.  Reading some of the comments above, I was thinking it wouldn’t have the asbestos panel, but looking at eBay photos I am not so sure as it does look to have panel with wire wound round it. Could anyone say if it does look to have the asbestos part?  Thanks. 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/266320961055?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=UeQFN0tfSCS&sssrc=4429486&ssuid=&widget_ver=artemis&media=EMAIL

 

I would certainly think that the whiteish material under the nichrome resistance windings could be asbestos. When you magnify the pictures you can see what look like fibrous material with the "hairy" bits capable of flaking off. 

 

I am disappointed in e-bay and the web in general in selling exposed bits of H&M controllers that show evidence of asbestos. In the UK our Health and Safety Executive and our local Environmental Health departments no longer consider they should be testing for asbestos, so I wonder if e-bay could be held responsible for any health effects caused by asbestos. Of course difficult to prove, but at the very least is there no way of stopping e-bay selling these items. Do they take their responsibilities in this area seriously?

 

With reference to asbestos testing  10 years ago we wanted to test some artex in a flat that our daughter was moving into. To my surprise I found that our local government H&S did not offer facilities to test for asbestos. We found a lab that did it for us for about £25 and thankfully it didn't contain asbestos. Going to be more expensive nowadays of course.

https://www.haspod.com/blog/asbestos/asbestos-artex-ceiling-risk 

 

Edited July 28, 2023 by Dave B
to add info

[Dave B]

H&M controllers are becoming more frequently available on e-bay and such in recent years, no doubt because of nostalgia. That is the attraction for me. I bought a number of them about 20 years ago for little more than the postage, but prices nowadays have risen to over £50 for some items. From what I know now, I would not be happy to buy any H&M items apart from the Power Master and the Safety Minor which don't use rheostat controls. 

 

We now find that even the transistorised version contains what looks very much like one of H&M's standard rheostats as the control element. 

[Dave B]

This H&M rheostat control unit is presently on e-bay, so there can be no argument that it is sealed away or anything. E-bay should ascertain if it is asbestos or not. I strongly suspect it is.