Do you agree with this assessment of the Hammant and Morgan controllers ?

[WIMorrison]

I would expect that you only send the 'suspect' material. Afterall they are only testing the bits for asbestos, I wouldn't expect that they will have the skills to disassemble items (and rebuild if no issues are found).  

 

Afterall, if you find some insulation in a building you ain't going to send the building - just a sample 😂

[Reorte]

1 hour ago, WIMorrison said:

I would expect that you only send the 'suspect' material. Afterall they are only testing the bits for asbestos, I wouldn't expect that they will have the skills to disassemble items (and rebuild if no issues are found).  

 

Afterall, if you find some insulation in a building you ain't going to send the building - just a sample 😂

That's why I wouldn't bother - best to leave potential asbestos undisturbed. If it is asbestos and you're concerned about it the risk from removing it is probably higher than just carrying on using it.

[SHMD]

I visit a lot of Labs around the world, (Industry, research, universities, etc - Professors, Lab Technicians, Geologists, Chemists etc ), and I was asking questions about asbestos and was given a lot of good advice from safe* "one off" handling procedures to different types - and probable risks - through to testing and "common knowledge" debunking.

 

A lot of the staff, in the Labs, are aware of my hobby and are interested in what I "do".

As I was interested in these controllers, and their risks, I asked many questions about "how", "risks", "testing", "background", etc which lead to further discussions on the subject.

 

A couple of my customers have kindly offered to "examine" some samples for me.

(Expensive equipment is needed for this.)

 

I'm still l undecided as to whether to accept their generous offers, but I am pretty loath to actually publish any results!

 

Why?

 

Such a small sample size, that's why.

We know asbestos WAS used (which type we don't know - some types are safe but could still contain the dreaded "un-see-able" dangerous fibres types - and roughly when.

 

Thought experiment. I get a couple of samples tested:-

Option1

Let's say I got the results back and they confirm the sample is unsafe.

Loads of readers would then use that to say all production over several decades MUST be disposed of safely.

Option2

Let's say I got the results back and they confirm the sample is safe.

Loads would then use that to "say theirs is safe too" and then use, modify, pass on, expose potentially harmful substances.

 

Even if I get the "safe" signal I MUST TREAT ALL future controllers as unsafe - so just assume all are unsafe and save testing/exposure.

 

 

The risks are very tiny here, but in IMHO, but are still just not worth it.

If you must use these controllers - definitely don't disturb the innards and especially the "insulation".

 

Three "NO NOs":-

1/ Don't go near anything resembling asbestos - especially if asbestos was know to have been used in the production process over the years.

2/ NEVER disturb (suspected) asbestos. EVER!

3/ Repeated exposure (to disturbed asbestos) is by far the biggest risk.

 

 

* Reducing exposure to an acceptable level. (Read very small risk here.)

 

 

Kev.

 

[Dave 46]

19 hours ago, kevinlms said:

With what result?

No asbestos found.  The ceilings had been textured with material made after the manufacturer stopped using asbestos.

[Dave 46]

With regards to the comments above about sampling.

The process of sampling has procedures to be complied with regarding safety, both the person doing the sampling and others who may be affected.  I did a course on this about fifteen years ago.  The samples mentioned above were from my son's house, and I had to seal doors, and tidy up the area after cutting the samples.  Not a simple procedure.

Dave

 

[Chris Snowdon]

Dear All

Sorry to come to this late, but I hoped I might add something.  "Asbestos" was drummed-into me as "Useful but Bad" in Chemistry lessons at School, and "Asbestosis" was drummed into me in Biology lessons at the same time, and much later as a Post-Grad along with "Emphysema"...  The various forms of the stuff can be nasty and messing around with them should be avoided.  But they aren't all lethal, they are known by colours, and it's better to know what you're dealing-with before junking otherwise-decent kit.  And if you do open it then don't scratch it.   Above all, I'm sure we've all had this conversation before?

Otherwise, I like my Duette (Slimline version) and am looking forward to getting a couple of loops running with add-on units.  Am currently (bad pun) really surprised by differring results from Duette and HM2000 on models made across about 60 years, as there's no obvious pattern to their behaviour...

All the best for 2024,

cs

 

[kevinlms]

6 hours ago, SHMD said:

I visit a lot of Labs around the world, (Industry, research, universities, etc - Professors, Lab Technicians, Geologists, Chemists etc ), and I was asking questions about asbestos and was given a lot of good advice from safe* "one off" handling procedures to different types - and probable risks - through to testing and "common knowledge" debunking.

 

A lot of the staff, in the Labs, are aware of my hobby and are interested in what I "do".

As I was interested in these controllers, and their risks, I asked many questions about "how", "risks", "testing", "background", etc which lead to further discussions on the subject.

 

A couple of my customers have kindly offered to "examine" some samples for me.

(Expensive equipment is needed for this.)

 

I'm still l undecided as to whether to accept their generous offers, but I am pretty loath to actually publish any results!

 

Why?

 

Such a small sample size, that's why.

We know asbestos WAS used (which type we don't know - some types are safe but could still contain the dreaded "un-see-able" dangerous fibres types - and roughly when.

 

Thought experiment. I get a couple of samples tested:-

Option1

Let's say I got the results back and they confirm the sample is unsafe.

Loads of readers would then use that to say all production over several decades MUST be disposed of safely.

Option2

Let's say I got the results back and they confirm the sample is safe.

Loads would then use that to "say theirs is safe too" and then use, modify, pass on, expose potentially harmful substances.

 

Even if I get the "safe" signal I MUST TREAT ALL future controllers as unsafe - so just assume all are unsafe and save testing/exposure.

 

 

The risks are very tiny here, but in IMHO, but are still just not worth it.

If you must use these controllers - definitely don't disturb the innards and especially the "insulation".

 

Three "NO NOs":-

1/ Don't go near anything resembling asbestos - especially if asbestos was know to have been used in the production process over the years.

2/ NEVER disturb (suspected) asbestos. EVER!

3/ Repeated exposure (to disturbed asbestos) is by far the biggest risk.

 

 

* Reducing exposure to an acceptable level. (Read very small risk here.)

 

 

Kev.

 

Thus continuing the 'going around in circles'! I think your logic of not stating whether or not a tested sample results (assuming you do get one tested), is MOST unhelpful. Continuing the status of 'unknown'.

All that is needed as a post, based on a test result is that 'My unit (Duette or whatever) tested positive/negative to asbestos'. It's up to others to decide whether your results represent ALL or just the one - because they will anyway.

 

I would get it tested if you have an opportunity, as presumably the test results would come with a recommendation on how to proceed.

[John M]

3 hours ago, Dave 46 said:

With regards to the comments above about sampling.

The process of sampling has procedures to be complied with regarding safety, both the person doing the sampling and others who may be affected.  I did a course on this about fifteen years ago.  The samples mentioned above were from my son's house, and I had to seal doors, and tidy up the area after cutting the samples.  Not a simple procedure.

Dave

 

 

I was involved in the management and removal of asbestos until recently and hold a BOHS IP 402 Certificate in the Surveying and Sampling of Asbestos. 

 

This post is intended to provide some clarification around the sampling and testing of a singe sample from a resistance mat of a H&M controller which is likely to require a lower level of control compared to taking multiple samples of  potentially high risk asbestos containing material or a risk of cross contamination.

 

Normal Usage:

 

The potential risk of health from the release of airborne fibres from a H&M resistance mat or variable transformer appears to be minimal provided the case is intact or in good condition.

 

The asbestos is effectively encapsulated within the case isolating the user from exposure to asbestos fibres, a highly effective control measure.

 

Sampling and Testing:

 

HSG 264 The Asbestos Survey Guide Section 5 Paragraphs 110 and 118 details safe working practice for sampling of material similar to those used in a resistance mat or variable transformer.

https://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/books/hsg264.htm

 

In practice a sample 3-5Sq/Cm cut with a sharp knife should be adequate for sampling purposes.   

 

A disposal P2 respirator, gloves and disposable coverall should be adequate for taking a single sample.

 

I would recommend placing the controller on a piece of 1000um plastic as a drop sheet/decontamination area before taking the sample.

 

A water/pva/surfactant wetting agent is normally misted/sprayed on the sample area  before taking a sample to minimise risk of release of fibres during sampling.

 

Samples of white dust debris may be sampled using a  small wet wipe which is sent for testing and analysis.

 

Samples are double wrapped in (small) zip lock bags.

 

The drop sheet, wet wipes, PPE should be double bagged on completion of sampling and disposed of as asbestos waste in the case of a positive test result.

 

Asbestos Test Kits and Testing Analysis Laboratories. 

 

The Test Kits available from DIY stores usually include respirator, gloves, sample bags and pre-paid envelope to an approved asbestos testing laboratory, but price excludes test and analysis. 

 

The Laboratories usually provide sample bags and pre-paid envelope on request.

 

Is it worth having a H&M Controller tested? 

 

Apart from a positive result the main risk appears to be the wetting agent used to minimise the risk of release of fibre may damage the resistance mat/ transformer even if all the components are dismantled, dried and cleaned thoroughly  before re-assembly.

 

Safely removing  resistance mat or variable transformer and de-contaminating a H&M case would be a relatively low risk task similar methodology to sampling in the event of a positive test result, disposing of the waste may be more challenging though some registered removal contractors are willing to take small amounts of waste from householders and tradespeople they ask nicely.

 

Interestingly I have a Safety Minor with a failed variable transformer on the bench and never thought of sending off a sample for testing! At this stage I don't think I its worth bothering.

 

 

 

 

[simes]

On 08/01/2024 at 22:01, rodent279 said:

I just ditched my H&M Powermaster at the tip in the small electrical section. It worked, but had been bashed and dented, although structurally intact, and to be honest, had done its job after over 60 years. I just cant get sentimental about something that is an inanimate piece of kit that does not move or make a noise, apart from a slight hum. I have got more modern, more capable equivalents, including a self-built unit. I did think about salvaging the case and putting modern innards inside, but what for? A lot of effort just to pretend it's still 1965 and I've just received it for Xmas.

I ditched my old (low-line) Powermaster likewise.  Then I found I missed it so much I had to buy another, secondhand obviously!  The replacement is in better condition and the 2.5A variable transformer is very useful for big old motors especially O-gauge.  I know of no other 2.5A variable transformer controller.  (And before anybody chips in!  The low-line Powermaster definitely has no asbestos, and the H&M variable transformer is not a variac or auto-transformer design; the variable voltage is taken from the secondary winding.)

[simes]

On 10/01/2024 at 04:03, John M said:

 

I was involved in the management and removal of asbestos until recently and hold a BOHS IP 402 Certificate in the Surveying and Sampling of Asbestos. 

 

This post is intended to provide some clarification around the sampling and testing of a singe sample from a resistance mat of a H&M controller which is likely to require a lower level of control compared to taking multiple samples of  potentially high risk asbestos containing material or a risk of cross contamination.

 

Normal Usage:

 

The potential risk of health from the release of airborne fibres from a H&M resistance mat or variable transformer appears to be minimal provided the case is intact or in good condition.

 

The asbestos is effectively encapsulated within the case isolating the user from exposure to asbestos fibres, a highly effective control measure.

 

Sampling and Testing:

 

HSG 264 The Asbestos Survey Guide Section 5 Paragraphs 110 and 118 details safe working practice for sampling of material similar to those used in a resistance mat or variable transformer.

https://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/books/hsg264.htm

 

In practice a sample 3-5Sq/Cm cut with a sharp knife should be adequate for sampling purposes.   

 

A disposal P2 respirator, gloves and disposable coverall should be adequate for taking a single sample.

 

I would recommend placing the controller on a piece of 1000um plastic as a drop sheet/decontamination area before taking the sample.

 

A water/pva/surfactant wetting agent is normally misted/sprayed on the sample area  before taking a sample to minimise risk of release of fibres during sampling.

 

Samples of white dust debris may be sampled using a  small wet wipe which is sent for testing and analysis.

 

Samples are double wrapped in (small) zip lock bags.

 

The drop sheet, wet wipes, PPE should be double bagged on completion of sampling and disposed of as asbestos waste in the case of a positive test result.

 

Asbestos Test Kits and Testing Analysis Laboratories. 

 

The Test Kits available from DIY stores usually include respirator, gloves, sample bags and pre-paid envelope to an approved asbestos testing laboratory, but price excludes test and analysis. 

 

The Laboratories usually provide sample bags and pre-paid envelope on request.

 

Is it worth having a H&M Controller tested? 

 

Apart from a positive result the main risk appears to be the wetting agent used to minimise the risk of release of fibre may damage the resistance mat/ transformer even if all the components are dismantled, dried and cleaned thoroughly  before re-assembly.

 

Safely removing  resistance mat or variable transformer and de-contaminating a H&M case would be a relatively low risk task similar methodology to sampling in the event of a positive test result, disposing of the waste may be more challenging though some registered removal contractors are willing to take small amounts of waste from householders and tradespeople they ask nicely.

 

Interestingly I have a Safety Minor with a failed variable transformer on the bench and never thought of sending off a sample for testing! At this stage I don't think I its worth bothering.

 

 

 

 

This is very practical advice John, thank you for posting.  Regarding your Safety Minor - the reason you never thought of sending a sample for testing may be because no Safety Minor has asbestos-like material in it!  (No resistance mat or slider control.)

[WIMorrison]

Surely the easiest way to determine whether there could be an issue with these controllers is to contact Hornby as they now own the H&M brand and are therefore responsible for the products that were sold.

[rodent279]

3 hours ago, simes said:

I ditched my old (low-line) Powermaster likewise.  Then I found I missed it so much I had to buy another, secondhand obviously!  The replacement is in better condition and the 2.5A variable transformer is very useful for big old motors especially O-gauge.  I know of no other 2.5A variable transformer controller.  (And before anybody chips in!  The low-line Powermaster definitely has no asbestos, and the H&M variable transformer is not a variac or auto-transformer design; the variable voltage is taken from the secondary winding.)

I kept the knob off mine, you can't get anything like them anymore.

[cliff park]

Surely one of the main points about the asbestos danger is that it is ok if left undisturbed. While the mat, if it is there, is inside the case it is safe. It only becomes a danger once someone opens up the case and starts pulling it about. Walk round any council estate in Britain and you will see hundreds, maybe thousands of garages with asbestos roofs, indeed whole garages made of asbestos. They are still in use, nobody says we should avoid them. I know most councils have long term demolition plans, but there is no big panic. In the scale of things the amount of asbestos in the controllers is tiny and contained.

[John M]

16 hours ago, simes said:

This is very practical advice John, thank you for posting.  Regarding your Safety Minor - the reason you never thought of sending a sample for testing may be because no Safety Minor has asbestos-like material in it!  (No resistance mat or slider control.)

Probably thought it was not worth the cost of repair,  I still use the secondary 15V ac output to power a hand held electronic controller. 

 

I will have a look at the transformer when we return home from the States in approx. two weeks.