Coordinated sound and smoke

[brushman47544]

I've just come across this movie posted on YouTube showing what Roco are now offerring on European outline steam locomotives, in this case German, namely steam sounds with smoke expelled from the chimney and cylinders aligned to the cylinder beat. I've never seen that before, it really looks good. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QrD1MF6DXS4

 

Wouldn't it be nice if we could have that with UK outline steam engines. But, at what cost, I wonder...

 

EDIT: I've already reported the post because I can't get the hyperlink show properly.

[pauliebanger]

Yes, very nice.

 

Zimo decoders have had the ability to synchronise exhaust beats and smoke 'puffs' for years. (Diesels too!) The main problem is the space available to put a fan-driven smoke generator which is essential for this to work. Roco now use Zimo decoders instead of Loksound. Maybe that's why this is happening now. Are these locos tender drive? That would allow space for the necessary gear inside the loco body.

 

I will be showing how to achieve this in a planned future Hornby Magazine article. It's a pity the loco in the clip seems to be running with drain cocks open the whole time. Do continental steam locos normally operate this way?

 

Paul

[brossard]

Well, I don't know. It is cool but the smoke is not convincing. I think the problem is that smoke (like water) doesn't scale well. My philosophy is that if you can't model something convincingly, don't do it at all. The brain tends to fill in a lot of detail when we are viewing a model.

 

Cheers

 

John

[NoggintheNog]

Broadway and MTH both did this in US outline about 2 years ago,they even, from memory, have had time to have a lawsuit over the implimentation of it, MTH put it in the diesels too now , it triggers when you use manual notching to really rev the engine at low speeds.

 

The problem with all of them is it leaves a bit of light oily type residue on the track, so cleaning is just a touch harder, and you dont really get long on a fill of the smoke oil, so the effect isnt long lasting.

[Lady_Ava_Hay]

That video is dubbed and the sound is none too convincing either.

 

I believe that ESU have introduced compatibility with a certain smoke unit on the version 4 decoder but I doubt it will catch on here.

 

As others have said, longevity of the smoke effect, oily residue not only for cleaning but for health of you and your pets let alone other humans residing with you plus the need for a chuff synchronised pump or fan (for the diesels) rather tends to put this sort of thing into the area of Xmas present gimmick that goes away by Boxing Day.

 

Apart from the sound, all these effects have been readily available for many years and have all been rejected although it must be said that DCC gives the chance to switch the smoke off. I cannot remember seeing any Hornby steam effect locos from the eighties (?) that hasn't burnt out. Those latter had a wheel operated pump in the loco and tender drive. Crude but quite effective....until Boxing Day or complaints from the management about the mess and the smell.

[rsv1000r]

the original Triang Hornby "syncrosmoke" system was fitted to locos such as the B12 which was conventionally driven by an XO4 in the loco, the pump being driven by a gear driven directly from the XO4's worm gear, many years before the advent of tender drive, I've still got one & amazingly it still works.

 

Nigel

[Lowlander]

Hello

 

I'm glad somebody has raised this topic.

 

I've recently installed a seuthe smoke unit to a Black 5 running on dc. I think the results have been good. The smoke comes out in puffs that look acceptable I think for a OO gauge model.

 

I've found that the recommended small amount (0.2ml) of fluid you put in generally lasts eight circuits of a 32ft by 12ft layout.

 

I am now going to try installing a seuthe smoke unit to Hornby Black 5, which also has an Esu 3.5 sound chip installed.

 

Can somebody please tell me where on the chip do I solder the two wires from the smoke unit to?

 

Thanks

 

Stephen

[gordon s]

The only one I have ever seen that came close to an authentic reproduction is this one. Just a shame it's Gauge 1....

 

[Lady_Ava_Hay]

 

I've recently installed a seuthe smoke unit

 

Can somebody please tell me where on the chip do I solder the two wires from the smoke unit to?

 

Thanks

 

Stephen

 

Be careful Stephen I am not too familiar with Seuthe units but only one is suitable for installation in plastic bodied locos.

 

You wire the two wires, one to blue which is +ve and the other to either green or purple but preference is for green usually mapped to Function 4.

 

Remember that DCC power is at full power all the time so the smoke unit will function at full heat all the time unless you switch it off. It will therefore consume more oil.

[pauliebanger]

 

 

Remember that DCC power is at full power all the time so the smoke unit will function at full heat all the time unless you switch it off. It will therefore consume more oil.

 

Unless you are fortunate enough to be running a Zimo decoder, then you will be able to vary the amount of smoke for standing, accelerating and cruising.

 

There is even a (user assignable) timer to switch the generator off automatically if you forget.

 

Paul

[Lady_Ava_Hay]

 

Unless you are fortunate enough to be running a Zimo decoder, then you will be able to vary the amount of smoke for standing, accelerating and cruising.

 

There is even a (user assignable) timer to switch the generator off automatically if you forget.

 

Paul

 

Interesting Paul. How is this achieved when operating the loco and how long does it take to vary the smoke output?

[Marty Mc]

Hi

 

Brilliant video thanks for posting.

 

Dave

 

That depends on how you set the CV's eg 137-139 or if you piggyback a 5v motor off the decoder (fan forcing speed controlled via cv 351 and 352) You can set the smoke unit to go off after 5 minutes or 10 minutes. Their are many more cv's you ccan adjust but you get the idea.

 

For your smoke unit you can wire in a couple of different ways. If you wire in 2 functions aux 1 and 2 you can set 1 function with a lower value. This gives you 2 power setting for the smoke unit.

 

On loksounds I generally like to wire a relay in for added protection. I have done 5 or 6 balck 5's and have had no problem with Seuthe no 22 or 27, you can use others but far more work is required.

 

Have fun.

 

m

[pauliebanger]

 

Interesting Paul. How is this achieved when operating the loco and how long does it take to vary the smoke output?

 

Martin has given a good explanation about the set-up.

 

In operation it is completely automatic, depending upon whether the loco is accelerating (speed steps increasing) cruising (speed steps steady) or drifting (speed steps decreasing). It is possible to set to take into account the loading too.

 

Variation is almost instant, as it is already working - not starting up from cold.

 

Impresssive decoders, aren't they?

 

Paul

[Lady_Ava_Hay]

 

Martin has given a good explanation about the set-up.

 

In operation it is completely automatic, depending upon whether the loco is accelerating (speed steps increasing) cruising (speed steps steady) or drifting (speed steps decreasing). It is possible to set to take into account the loading too.

 

Variation is almost instant, as it is already working - not starting up from cold.

 

Impresssive decoders, aren't they?

 

Paul

 

Yes they are Paul although the ability to load home grown sounds and projects still seems a bit of a mystery. Everybody seems to go quiet when you ask how you load a certain whistle.

 

Agreed that the V4 Loksound is a completely different animal to the V3.5 which was the easiest to load unique sounds into but this seems that Zimo have followed the route of having to be an experienced sound and computer engineer to get the very best from.

 

I must admit to being a bit wary of the Austrians when it comes to sound decoder programming. I had bad experience with CT and I think Zimo have used his methods and protocols. That and being warned off the dongle that does the deed with sound loading.

 

It is this sort of half baked approach to the DIY market ( that even ESU are neglecting at the moment ) that tends to make you stick with what you know works or, at present, worked.

 

I still have two 3.5's in stock and only two locos to fit but I need to upgrade my knowledge with ESU or Zimo but money is tight so the ESU gets the vote when I can afford a V4 as the dongle still works on it.

[pauliebanger]

 

Yes they are Paul although the ability to load home grown sounds and projects still seems a bit of a mystery. Everybody seems to go quiet when you ask how you load a certain whistle.

 

 

 

How so?

Have you downloaded and studied my tutorials on ZSP?

Steam: http://www.hornbymagazine.com/?p=1084

Diesel: http://www.hornbymagazine.com/?p=1176

 

Who is the 'everybody' that goes quiet? Who have you asked? And what is the whistle that you are talking about?

 

I'll help if I can.

 

Paul

[status quo]

Hi

 

Can you just wire a seuthe straight to the zimo sound decoder or do you have to fit a relay?

I fitted a seuthe to a black five with a non sound digitrax decoder but the heat melted the chimney, since then i fitted a white metal chimney in which the seuthe is still a tight fit in it will it melt the rest of the body?

Any advice and diagrams would be appreciated

 

Thanks in advance

 

Steve

[pauliebanger]

Hi

 

Can you just wire a seuthe straight to the zimo sound decoder or do you have to fit a relay?

I fitted a seuthe to a black five with a non sound digitrax decoder but the heat melted the chimney, since then i fitted a white metal chimney in which the seuthe is still a tight fit in it will it melt the rest of the body?

Any advice and diagrams would be appreciated

 

Thanks in advance

 

Steve

 

Steve.

 

You can use a relay if you wish. But, Zimo decoders are well up to the job if wired direct. Each FO (AUX) can handle 800mA, subject to a maximum 800mA for all functions operating together. i.e.the total amout is available to any of the function outputs, but will be shared as required if more that one function is operated.

 

You can use a relay as Martin suggested above to vary the smoke levels. However, if you want this to be automatically controlled by the decoder as I described above, you will need to connect direct to the decoder.

 

The usual way this seems to apply to most other brands is that there is a limit, 100-200 mA per FO. I may be wrong, some others might operate like Zimo.

 

Wiring can be straightforward too. One wire from the Suethe to the blue (common +ve) wire, one to the FO wire of your choice. White and yellow are set up for lighting by default, but can be easily remapped with CVs, brown or green are the obvious choices, but it really makes no difference. (Not the purple, though, they are the speaker wires, Ha Ha).

 

Heat and plastic are not good bedfellows. That's true whatever the system, DC or DCC. There are versions, No 22 being one, which are recommended for plastic bodies. Still requires tolerance to 80 degrees C, though.

 

Zimo are excellent decoders - the best in my opinion - but they cannot reverse the laws of physics.

 

Arrange as much separation from the plastic as possible, and use the generator in short bursts, for effect. Say, as a loco enters and traverses the scenic part of your layout. Then turn it off.

 

This will give the heat some chance to dissipate.

 

Never leave it switched on without smoke fluid - this cools the unit to some degree as the 'smoke' is produced by evaporation - and without it the generator will rapidly overheat. This is where Zimo's auto switch off can really help. Its easy to forget to switch off the generator in a loco that is not smoking due to having no fluid, and this is a great safeguard.

 

Finally, you will need to employ some common sense about use and fitment. I can explain how to do it, but I cannot guarantee you will not melt your loco/chimney.

 

I have a series of articles currently running in Hornby Magazine (started issue 51) about fitting sound, smoke, Stay Alive capacitors, and firebox flicker to Horby's A4. Lots of pictures to illustrate my explanations, you might find that helpful.

 

Kind regards,

 

Paul

[Lowlander]

Hello again

 

Firstly! Thanks to Dave and Paulie for their replies.

 

The Seuthe I'm going to use is a No.22 which was recommended for a Black 5 by those good people at Express Models, so hopefully with the heat resistant wrap around the chimney of the smoke unit I shouldn't have any of the problems mentioned above by "Status Quo".

 

I have to say I have already used this unit in another Black 5 running on Dc and it has been no problem whatsoever. I just wired the two wires from the smoke unit to the two connections on the motor and super glued the smoke unit into the chimney. I had tried using normal evo stick and then uhu for holding the smoke unit in place, but they just melted away so I found just a small brush of the Bostic Superglue around the chimney base has held the unit in place no bother.

 

Going slightly off topic here. Paulie! I'm glad you mentioned stay alive capacitors as I'm wondering if this couldn't be the answer to my stuttering Hornby 08 which I've hard wired with a Loksound V4 Micro. I noticed on the Esu site that the capacitors are available, but can't seem to find them in stock at Howes, South West Digital, Dcc coastal etc. So I look forward to your article.

 

Thanks Again

 

Stephen

[Marty Mc]

Hi

 

If you contact John at Bromsgrove models he has some of the DCC Concepts "stay alive" with the sub circuit added. Worth looking at the pick ups and giving the wheels a clean. Richard from DCC Concepts will be at the Gaugemaster open day this month and he has some very interesting products for DCC and................ or just with for the mags to announce them very shortly.

 

You can also add stay alive to the Lok 3.5 see photo, it does however mean soldering on the chip. The blue and black are for stay alive, the 2 blacks are for a hall sensor which linked to decoder/fan you can then achieve syncro smoke.

 

 

A trick for the 22 or 27 is to use 3 ply tissue paper and strip it down to 1 ply. Mix with epoxy and rap around generator to reduce thermal transfer. Filing is required but it really helps and I have never melted a chimney or warped one yet....

 

I still like using relays on some as it gives me the added protection for the decoder plus I can pull a couple of extra volts for the cost of 30mA and a bit of extra wiring..

 

 

Here are metal generators in a plastic loco using the tissue and epoxy.

 

 

 

Plenty of smoke and long running with a storage tank.

 

 

 

I still prefer Zimos setup for smoke over the lok any day.

 

Good luck on the 08 and black 5.

 

Martin

[Lowlander]

Hi Martin

 

Thanks for your reply.

 

I've done the bit with cleaning the pick ups, wheels etc on the 08 and have also changed cv 124 to 6 all with limited sucess. I know that the Esu "Stay Alive" only has a three second effect, but if it's better than what i've got just now I'll be happy. Also interesting that the "Stay Alive" can be used on the Esu 3.5 as well.

 

Those smoke units look excellent. I had bought two Seuthe 100's for a double chimney Flying Scotsman and was wondering the best course of action to install them, your photos have certainly made me re-think my plans.

 

Thanks Again

 

Stephen

[pauliebanger]

 

Going slightly off topic here. Paulie! I'm glad you mentioned stay alive capacitors as I'm wondering if this couldn't be the answer to my stuttering Hornby 08 which I've hard wired with a Loksound V4 Micro. I noticed on the Esu site that the capacitors are available, but can't seem to find them in stock at Howes, South West Digital, Dcc coastal etc. So I look forward to your article.

 

Thanks Again

 

Stephen

 

Stephen,

 

There are Stay Alives and Stay Alives. Not all work in exactly the same way. Your ESU capacitor, if you can get it to fit in th model, is similar to the Lenz module.Very good by all accounts.

 

Here's an extract of a previous article which gives more detail about the Zimo system, which uses inexpensive and readilly available capacitors. I know you have a LokV4, but this explains some of the differences.

 

Not available at the time I wrote this, there is now another range, from DCCconcepts, which includes an inexpensive Stay Alive solution. In DCC Concepts case, the special circuit to protect against in-rush current is included in the add-on package, and can therefore be used with other decoders provided you have the knowledge where to solder the connections, and the 'bottle' to solder to your £100 decoder!! Ha Ha.

 

 

 

''The MX645 is one of the latest generation from Zimo. This example was from a batch specially produced by Zimo for Digitrains. It was loaded with Digitrainsounds Class 37/4 sound project which really rattles the windows if given its head. It includes both special hardware to allow simple connection of inexpensive capacitors, and software to make best use of them.

Zimo have offered such a system for several years, though not always fully integrated as now. In more recent times, Lenz has introduced an excellent but much more expensive module for use on some of its decoders, and ESU have recently announced a similar module for its soon to be released V4.0 range of decoders.

There has been some debate on forums recently about the virtues of ‘Stay Alive’ technology. Some hold the view that it is a sticking plaster to cover over the symptoms of poor track wiring and maintenance. I would always advocate best practice in both wiring and cleanliness of track and locomotives. But this view overlooks other benefits beyond the ability to run on less than scrupulously clean track.

A few words of explanation will help you to understand.

Stay alive capacitors are connected to and controlled by the DCC decoder and act like small rechargeable batteries. I briefly mentioned last time that there is one downside of this; the charging of capacitors can cause a surge in current drawn when the layout is powered up.

This effect, known as ‘in-rush current’ is multiplied by the number of capacitor equipped locos on the tracks. This can be severe enough for your DCC system to ‘detect’ a short which is really non-existent and shut down to protect itself. This is not a useful feature at all.

It is necessary for additional circuitry to control the charging to avoid this eventuality, and this is now being added to new ranges of decoders as part of the basic design.

The net effect of the system is to provide enough power to bridge any temporary breaks in electrical contact with the track.

But it can be used in a more sophisticated way. Both Lenz and ESU have a system that allows DCC signal to be read by the decoder even on dirty track. Zimo decoders use a different technique which they call ‘Smart Stopping’.

Although not widely advertised, this feature is always active so long as a stay alive capacitor is fitted. Unlike the Lenz and ESU systems, Smart Stopping is designed to prevent the loco from coming to a complete stop on a dirty or otherwise electrically dead section of track. It works like this:

Each time you instruct your loco to stop, the decoder will keep checking for available track power until the loco comes to a full stop. If power is lost during its deceleration, the decoder automatically keeps the motor running by using the capacitor’s available energy. It will continue at the speed step in use before losing power until track power is detected again. The decoder then recharges the capacitor and continues to slow the loco to a halt. This will happen on each power interruption, but is so quick it will normally go completely unnoticed in operation.

When the loco comes to a halt, the decoder continues checking for power and if lost moves the engine again in the same direction and at the lowest speed step until power is restored. Again, the operator usually will not notice anything since dirty track sections are usually extremely short. ‘Smart Stopping’ ensures that the decoder remains powered and the capacitor fully charged, until you are ready to drive off again.

This ability of Zimo decoders to continuously check for track power and manage a stay alive capacitor to smooth out power to the motor also allows the world class slow-speed running that Zimo users’ cherish.

Having checked the space available, I used three 100 uF capacitors wired together in parallel and soldered to the wires already provided on the MX645. The capacitors are polarity sensitive so it is important to connect the Grey (negative) wire from the decoder to the shorter (negative) wires from the capacitors. The decoder’s Blue (positive) wire should connect to the longer (positive) capacitor wire''.

 

I appologise if this has strayed too far from the OP's thread, it was in response to a specific issue raised. I do find sometimes that answering only the specific points raised by threads ends up giving an incomplete picture.

 

Kind regards,

 

Paul

[brushman47544]

I appologise if this has strayed too far from the OP's thread, it was in response to a specific issue raised. I do find sometimes that answering only the specific points raised by threads ends up giving an incomplete picture.

 

Kind regards,

 

Paul

I'm certainly not complaining - it's all very interesting stuff, although I fear actually making it happen looks a bit beyond my skills. And in view of the room the layout is in, I'm not sure it would go down very well with the wife anyway.

[ianmax69]

Has anyone ever attempted to fit a Seuthe 22 smoke generator within the confinds of a Bachmann Deltic? After re-fitting the speaker into the fuel tank can the circuit board be moved forward to allow the smoke gen to fit centrally under one of the two exhaust pumes and then  programm the chip for it to come on during start up clank (I know it wouldnt give a true effect of diesel cold start fumes) but somehow the noise of the napiers coming to life jst doesn't look right without the clagg!

[28XX]

the original Triang Hornby "syncrosmoke" system was fitted to locos such as the B12 which was conventionally driven by an XO4 in the loco, the pump being driven by a gear driven directly from the XO4's worm gear, many years before the advent of tender drive, I've still got one & amazingly it still works.

 

Nigel

And a bit of spring steel wrapped round a tender axle rubbing on some sandpaper, chuff chuff chuff!

[dasatcopthorne]

Guys.

 

Am I missing something here.

 

Why can't you fit the smoke unit elsewhere and pipe it to the exhaust port/chimney?

 

Dave