Hornby Saint - how bad was it?

[rovex]

The Hornby GWR Saint - Saint Catherine, Clevedon Court etc - I've got one of these snuck away somewhere (St Catherine - I think) and to be honest I don't think its been out of the box but I seem to recall that when it was first produced by Hornby it got a very bad press. Unfortunately I can't remember why?

 

Does anyone?

 

Reason I ask is that I have a hankering for a saint class loco and I'm wondering whether its worth upgrading the Hornby one, getting a new larger tender etc or should I just stick it on ebay and start from scratch. If so I might not bother and instead have a go at building a Saint instead, this website http://www.gwr.org.uk/prostar.html has a good article showing how to make one from an old Airfix Castle and the 4-4-0 GWR County - which I also have stored somewhere.

 

What do you think?

 

Rovex

[lapford34102]

If so I might not bother and instead have a go at building a Saint instead,

 

Hi,

Firstly I assume you meant to say Star not Saint in the above.

The Hornby Saint is based on their 60's vintage Hall and the body has a number of errors the most obvious being the overlong smokebox and front footplate.

The body can be hacked into a reasonable representation but whether it's worth the effort given the chassis and it's tender drive I don't know. You could put the body on a new chassis such as a Comet one but if you were doing that it would probably be better starting with a spare body and getting rid of yours.

Stu

[Mikkel]

Hi Rovex,

 

I would agree with Stu that this one is going to take a lot of dedication to get reasonably good - it is especially the whole front section that is seriously off, as Stu mentions. But then, that may be just the challenge you are looking for!

 

If you go for the Star instead, you might be interested in this thread on Rmweb3, which includes improvements on the approach taken in the gwr.og.uk article:

 

http://www.rmweb.co....tar+from+castle

[rovex]

Hi guys - sounds to me that improving Hornby's saint is going to be an awful lot of work for not much return - I'll get it shoved on ebay then and have ago at the Star

 

Yes I did mean Star - and I'd thought I'd proof read it.

 

Thanks for the link Mikkel

 

Rovex

[lapford34102]

Hi,

If Rovex will forgive me hijacking this thread for a moment have you ever seen a Hornby based Saint "conversion" Mikkel ?

Stu

[gwrrob]

Hi guys - sounds to me that improving Hornby's saint is going to be an awful lot of work for not much return - I'll get it shoved on ebay then and have ago at the Star

 

Yes I did mean Star - and I'd thought I'd proof read it.

 

Thanks for the link Mikkel

 

Rovex

 

Interestingly I was talking at a show to Graham Hubbard of Bachmann, about a Saint.As they do the Hall it wouldn't take much more to produce the Saint.However he wasn't keen and didn't think there was a call for a loco of that time period ! Perhaps we can now ask Hornby for the Star.

[coachmann]

Have to admit a Hornby 'Saint' is a new one on me. Never knew it existed. Anyone got pictures?

 

Larry

[gwrrob]

Have to admit a Hornby 'Saint' is a new one on me. Never knew it existed. Anyone got pictures?

 

Larry

 

Heres one in black on ebay Larry.

 

 

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Hornby-MIB-NEW-R380-BR-EX-GWR-SAINT-29XX-CLEVEDON-COURT_W0QQitemZ360209425667QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Trains_Railway_Models?hash=item53de27a503

[lapford34102]

Hi,

apologies for the poor photo but this is a shot of the Saint body I've got.

 

When I've got the readies available the idea is to put a Comet Hall chassis underneath it but use King wheels as I doubt you'd get 6'8" ones in (As an aside I'm curious what Hornby do about this on their new Castle). Apart from new boiler fittings it's the front end that needs sorting out. The smokebox and front footplate were extended so that they dould use a B12 chassis on the original incarnation, a Hall, so they both need shortening. Chris Leigh did this mod in an article in Model Railway Constructor back in the 60's. Don't have the mag any more but maybe he still hs some photos somewhere?

Stu

[rovex]

I did wonder if there was any mileage in adapting the Bachman Hall - changing the wheels etc, but it strikes me as an expensive exercise.

 

Rovex

[coachmann]

Thanks for the link to the 'Saint' on Ebay. It looks to be from the days when Triang /Hornby models stood around 1/8" too high off the rails. If Hornby countered this by making the footplate drop somewhat shallower than it should be (as they also did with the B12), a decent conversion with scale chassis would stil be dodgy.

[Mr Lizard]

Mikkel has already posted a link to my thread on the old RMweb - where I used parts from a Hornby Saint body to kitbash a model of a Star. These are a few of the more major problems I found with the Hornby Saint body moulding:

 

Over long smokebox

Too short firebox

Safety valve cover in the wrong place

Splashers too shallow and incorrectly spaced

Front buffer beam is way too high

Cab shape is somewhat dodgy

 

Most of these fundamental dimensional errors seem to be due to the body being designed to fit the old Tri-ang chassis with its incorrectly spaced (and sized?) driving wheels.

 

I think it would be simpler for Hornby to do a Star than for Bachmann to do a Saint - the Star and Castle's chassis are almost identical - whereas the Hall has the smaller driving wheels, 6' as opposed to the 6' 8 1/2" of the Saint, Star and Castle. Some of my favourite prototypes these, but there's never been decent RTR Saint or any RTR Star ever - even though all were fairly long lived, successful and survived into BR ownership. Just overshadowed by later, more famous locos I suppose so they get overlooked.

 

I still need to finish off the tender for my Star - one day I will when I get the time!

[coachmann]

I've seen and indeed repainted 'Star's converted from old Hornby Dublo Castles (New cab and inside cylinder block etc) ... Not exactly cosher but good enough in their day.

 

The centre line of the Star boiler was 2?? inches lower than the Castle's, hence the slightly taller chimney. The backhead was verticle instead of sloping and the boiler bands were spaced differently. So it appears Hornby would have to do a lot more than simply fit a new cab to their new Castle.

[Mr Lizard]

Sure, I would think they'd need a whole new body moulding to allow for the boiler and cab differences. I was suggesting that the chassis could be reused - the only major alteration would be to shorten the frames under the cab by 4mm. Still, much as I'd like to see Hornby do it, I don't think it's very likely so I'll shut up.

[Horsetan]

The Hornby Saint basically repeats all the errors of the old Rovex Hall moulding. And the driving wheelbase is wrong anyway!

[Lord of the Badgers]

Alright, wonder how many of you know a possibly true story about the real 2937 Clevedon Court?

 

I come from the area..

Not sure of the exact story - but it's one they tell when you're shown around the house, so it could be rubbish!

 

Essentially the story goes that Lord Elton got wind of the loco being withdrawn, and asked for it to be saved for display at Clevedon Court itself.

When it was withdrawn (at Hereford shed apparently - just looked), the loco was brought to the gates of the house (no mean effort in those days).

Only trouble was that his Lordship was away that day, and the wife (no disrespect, but apparently not briefed of the intention) responded to the "where'd you want yer loco ma'am" question with a "take it back, not a blooming clue what you're on about" sort of answer

 

And so, she was cut up (that's the loco, not the wife), although a nameplate survives & is in the house still. Would've been no need for Lady Of Legend eh...

[coachmann]

Thats a good story. A pal of mine bought what he descibed as a "small signal from the end of Rhyl Station". The poor fellows face was a picture on the day it arrived, as in reality the gantry was huge lying on his drive and garden.

 

Then his wife returned home in a new outfit....It was one of those lifetime memories. With as much diginity as she could muster, she climbed over the obstacle to her front door, then turned and announced to all and sundry that either THAT goes or she does!

 

She went.

[hayfield]

Another alternative is the Southeastern Finecast Star kit. OK its the old Wills kit which has not been updated by them yet. Its designed to take the Triang/ Hornby B12 chassis (so the wheel base / splashers may be slightly out but will be a lot simpler than rebuilding an old Hornby loco. I can see a lot of options re the build.

 

1, Use the Hornby B12 chassis as is

1a, Re-wheel the B12 chassis with Romfords

2 As the Wills Saint was designed to use the B12 chassis ask SEF if the Saint chassis will work on the Star.

3 Comet sell a Castle/Star chassis and use what ever wheels / motor / gear box combernation you decide on

4 Southeastern Finecast sell an etched Castle chassis so dito above

 

The last option is to buy one of the old Wills Locos which come up on Ebay quite often either built or as an un-made kit. Southeastern Finecast sell spares for all their kits so if you go down this route any parts that are either missing or broken can be replaced. Part built or those that require a re-paint / re-build don't fetch too much. Having said that a new kit with a S/H chassis will still be cheaper than a new loco

[Lord of the Badgers]

Thats a good story. A pal of mine bought what he descibed as a "small signal from the end of Rhyl Station". The poor fellows face was a picture on the day it arrived, as in reality the gantry was huge lying on his drive and garden.

 

Then his wife returned home in a new outfit....It was one of those lifetime memories. With as much diginity as she could muster, she climbed over the obstacle to her front door, then turned and announced to all and sundry that either THAT goes or she does!

 

She went.

 

Mate of mine was offered a WR decommissioned brakevan, and a small section of track to sit it on. Would make a great summerhouse etc he thought.

 

Of course these things weigh, well, a lot. When he found out what the crane would cost to get it in the back garden, and having to swing a (60 ton?) van over the neighbour's roof.. suprisingly the wife was OK with it (he already has a signal in his garden) but his wallet wasn't...

 

Anyhoo... back to the thread, models to discuss & all that...

[Peter Bedding]

A year or so in the past, there was a magazine article on constructing a straight-framed Saint, "Lady of Quality".

 

If Messrs Bachmann or Hornby were to produce one to today's state-of-art, with some matching Edwardian-era coaches, I would succumb to temptation yet again.

 

PB

[gwrrob]

[quote name='Peter Bedding' date='23 December 2009 - 12:19 ' timestamp='1261570740' post='50394'

 

If Messrs Bachmann or Hornby were to produce one to today's state-of-art, with some matching Edwardian-era coaches, I would succumb to temptation yet again.

 

PB

 

Your'e not the only one.Beautiful. :icon_thumbsup2:

[rovex]

Hi guys

 

thanks for all the responses, didn't think I was going to cause such excitement when I asked the question. I'm currently bashing together a Star from the instructions on the GWR.org site, It seemed the easiest way to do it without too much cutting up.

 

However on ebay at the moment is the Wills finecast kit for the Saint (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/WILLS-FINECAST-LOCO-BODY-KIT-GWR-SAINT_W0QQitemZ150408175178QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Trains_Railway_Models?hash=item2305069e4a), BUT it's meant to take a B12 chassis, so presumably it just replicates all the wheel base errors of the Hornby one. Any thoughts

 

Rovex

[stevetreble]

Interestingly I was talking at a show to Graham Hubbard of Bachmann, about a Saint.As they do the Hall it wouldn't take much more to produce the Saint.However he wasn't keen and didn't think there was a call for a loco of that time period ! Perhaps we can now ask Hornby for the Star.

 

How sad. There is at least a decent kit for a Star available in the Malcolm Mitchell range, but the SE Finecast Saint is definitely showing it's age, and I doubt we'll see another kit in 4mm for a Saint now. For that reason, I would love to see a Saint released by Hornby or Bachmann, even more than a Star.

 

Bachmann's response seems even more odd considering they've just released the City, as the Saint's were far more numerous and lasted for another 20 years after the Cities disappeared. Perhaps the NRM shared some of the development costs of the City making it more viable for Bachmann.

 

In many respects there actually seems to be more choice of high quality loco models for the GWR modeller in 7mm scale than 4mm now, when you add up what is available in those respective scales in both the RTR and the kit scene. And that is something I wouldn't have expected a few years ago.

[craigwelsh]

Bachmann's response seems even more odd considering they've just released the City, as the Saint's were far more numerous and lasted for another 20 years after the Cities disappeared. Perhaps the NRM shared some of the development costs of the City making it more viable for Bachmann.

Bachmann have not just released a City, the NRM has released their model of City of Truro which is made for them by Bachmann. Bachmann may or may not be able to use the tooling from this eventually to do other class members but it was an NRM project to model a popular preserved loco.

 

In that context it is unsurprising that Bachmann are reluctant to model a class that didn't really make it into the most popular period.

 

I would imagine we'll see a new King from Hornby before the earlier 4 cylinder type for the same reason though there is an eventual NRM tie-in with Lode Star.

 

Maybe the Saint model will come with the Didcot one taking to the rails.

 

I don't find it unusual to see more kits in 7mm now, 4mm has always been a more RTR scale and many of the older finescale modellers seem to up scale over time to 7mm. Pete Waterman is probably helping out the larger scale quite a bit here too!

[Horsetan]

This gives a whole new bearing to the title "Return of the Saint"