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Hornby Saint - how bad was it?


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Bachmann's response seems even more odd considering they've just released the City, as the Saint's were far more numerous and lasted for another 20 years after the Cities disappeared. Perhaps the NRM shared some of the development costs of the City making it more viable for Bachmann.

 

Stephen.To be far to Mr Hubbard I did ask a few years ago when City of Truro was probably not even thought of modelling then.Perhaps a Saint is more feasible to them now.Who knows.

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Bachmann have not just released a City, the NRM has released their model of City of Truro which is made for them by Bachmann. Bachmann may or may not be able to use the tooling from this eventually to do other class members but it was an NRM project to model a popular preserved loco.

 

In that context it is unsurprising that Bachmann are reluctant to model a class that didn't really make it into the most popular period.

 

I would imagine we'll see a new King from Hornby before the earlier 4 cylinder type for the same reason though there is an eventual NRM tie-in with Lode Star.

 

Maybe the Saint model will come with the Didcot one taking to the rails.

 

I don't find it unusual to see more kits in 7mm now, 4mm has always been a more RTR scale and many of the older finescale modellers seem to up scale over time to 7mm. Pete Waterman is probably helping out the larger scale quite a bit here too!

 

 

Thanks for clarifying how the City came about. When you say there is an eventual NRM tie-in with Lode Star, does that mean you're aware that NRM plan to release a Star at some stage as well? If they do, I hope it is successful, and if it is successful I hope that prompts someone to take a punt on the Saint. The Stars didn't last any longer than the Saints, and if the Star is a successful release then that would suggest a Saint could be as well.

 

I think you missed my point about 7mm as I referenced the availability of both RTR and kits in 7mm which in my opinion have progressed in leaps and bounds in the last 15 years compared to the developments in 4mm. Off the top of my head 7mm RTR steam outline engines can be sourced from Bachmann, DJH, L H Loveless, Golden Age Models, Lionheart, Tower, and Masterpiece Models. I realise that a lot of these are sold as kits, but the kit manufacturers themselves offer them as a finished product, so that counts as RTR as far as I'm concerned. Returning to the Saint as an example there are kits available in 7mm from Slaters, Just Like The Real Thing, and DJH with the DJH one being available RTR. I suspect all three of these kits are of a higher quality than the SE Finecast and dreaded Proscale ones available in 4mm. In fact, I suspect the standard of kits overall is a lot higher for locos, coaches and wagons in 7mm than in 4mm, but that may have more to do with the fact that there has traditionally been less competiton in the past from the RTR sector in 7mm. As well as a RTR Saint in 7mm the prewar GWR modeller has recently been blessed with a 64xx and 74xx pannier, a stunning Castle, and will soon have available a Star and an Autocoach (that looks far superior to the old 4mm Airfix one).

 

Admittedly we've had a few new models in 4mm RTR recently, but a lot of them have been new toolings or revamps of existing models such as the Collet Goods, 57xx, Hall and the soon to be available 28xx and Castle. As a result, there is a sense of deja vu with recent GWR releases compared to what is going on in the 7mm scene. And when the manufacturers have released completely new models such as the Grange and County, they're unfortunately locos that came too late for a lot of pre-war GWR modellers.

 

I guess what disappoints me is that there has been nothing truly fresh and exciting in the recent releases from the 4mm RTR manufacturers for the pre-war GWR modeller. When I hear people saying that they think Bachmann aren't keen on doing a Saint because it didn't last into what is now the popular period then I'm left with the feeling that our 4mm manufacturers have blinkers on when it comes to the way they do business. It's about time one of the 4mm manufacturers had the courage to ignore the whingers who complain that they don't want to pay more then xxx for a model and release a model that may have more limited appeal, but do so at a higher price and even in a limited run (to increase demand). I'm not saying it has to be at Masterpiece Models prices or anything close to that, but I would happily pay twice the price for a limited run model that didn't have as wide appeal as say a Castle. This type of approach works in HO in the American market, and would appear to work in 7mm in the UK market, so why not OO? And if someone thinks twice the normal price is too much for a limited appeal 4mm RTR loco, then I have a SE Saint kit in the cupboard awaiting construction which has probably cost me that already. Because, to bring it up to current day RTR standards I've added to the basic kit, a Perseverance chassis, Mashima motor, High Level gearbox, Ultrascale wheels, other casting to improve on the originals, cast name plates and a Mitchell tender. All those bits have cost me nearly GBP 250.00 and I haven't even built it yet! If a RTR manufacturer was to release a Saint at a retail price of GBP 250.00, then I wouldn't quibble at the price. They may even get a few BR WR modellers buying them too. I have a Heljan Hymek and Western in my collection that will never be seen on my layout, but I still bought them because I just like them!

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Thanks for clarifying how the City came about. When you say there is an eventual NRM tie-in with Lode Star, does that mean you're aware that NRM plan to release a Star at some stage as well? If they do, I hope it is successful, and if it is successful I hope that prompts someone to take a punt on the Saint. The Stars didn't last any longer than the Saints, and if the Star is a successful release then that would suggest a Saint could be as well.

I meant that if Hornby did a star they can do 'NRM range Lode Star' and the NRM itself could do Lode Star and give Bachmann the rights to use the tool for the rest. I doubt there is one on anyones horizons though at the moment. The fact there is one in the NRM would possibly help sales was my point.

 

I guess what disappoints me is that there has been nothing truly fresh and exciting in the recent releases from the 4mm RTR manufacturers for the pre-war GWR modeller. When I hear people saying that they think Bachmann aren't keen on doing a Saint because it didn't last into what is now the popular period then I'm left with the feeling that our 4mm manufacturers have blinkers on when it comes to the way they do business. It's about time one of the 4mm manufacturers had the courage to ignore the whingers who complain that they don't want to pay more then xxx for a model and release a model that may have more limited appeal, but do so at a higher price and even in a limited run (to increase demand). I'm not saying it has to be at Masterpiece Models prices or anything close to that, but I would happily pay twice the price for a limited run model that didn't have as wide appeal as say a Castle.

Why take a gamble on a higher cost item for a limited market when there are still many mainstream items to do that follow your 'normal' model? Seems more like good business practice than blinkered. Besides many shops are now starting to take on the riskier stuff themselves with Bachmann guaranteed orders for it, much better proposition for them.

Hornby seem to order in massive batches relatively so they seem less geared up for the limited edition craze.

 

Saint/Star vs King is a bit like the Collett/Hawksworth coach thing, sadly less range of period but more popular.

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Why take a gamble on a higher cost item for a limited market when there are still many mainstream items to do that follow your 'normal' model? Seems more like good business practice than blinkered.

 

Because there is probably a lot less chance one of the other manufacturers will duplicate the model ruining your sales prospects as we've seen with the likes of the 4MT and numerous diesels.

 

Because the approach of releasing a more niche model at a higher price and in a limited run appears to work well for other manufacturers both in the UK and overseas.

 

Because the time to do it is now, certainly not in 20 years when the market for some of these models is likely to be even more limited.

 

The truth of the matter is a lot of the people releasing limited run RTR models of less mainstream locos both in the UK and overseas in 7mm or HO are smaller manufacturers not the big players. Not being party to Hornby or Bachmann's business model with regards to development and manufacturing costs, number of sales per model and profit margins I have no way of knowing whether or not there is room in the way their businesses are run to try things a little differently. But, I struggle to believe when I see RTR models in 7mm being released for the Saint, Star, 64xx and 74xx classes, that there isn't a market in 4mm for these locos for some manufacturer to tap into even if it means paying a premium for them.

 

I suspect you're right though, that if any completely new GWR models are to be produced by Bachmann or Hornby, then Bachmann either alone or in partnership with the likes of NRM is probably more likely to do it than Hornby. Hornby, more than Bachmann have a lot of existing GWR models in their catalogue that would benefit from retooling before they're likely to think about completely new ones. Boring, but understandable. That is why what is happening in 7mm RTR at the moment is in many ways more exciting to me than 4mm.

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  • 3 weeks later...

I've been doing a bit of thinking and am wondering whether I can make a hash at a model of a saint as follows.

 

Bachman Hall - rewheeled with correct or approaching correct size wheels.

 

Cut off the cab and cut out the boiler, discard running plate. keep boiler - might have to use the older modified Hall as running plate on new Hall I seem to recall is metal - Course this depends on the modified Hall having the right wheelbase.

 

Use footplate of Hornby Castle (I've got a spare body. This gives the correct depth to the curve on the front of the footplate. Probably cut of splashers, make good and refit in correct place and probably cut down a bit, remove and filler where the inside pistons project onto footplate

 

Extend firebox on Hall boiler by about 2 mm, this should give it the correct length, rest of boiler dimensions seem OK.

 

Replace cab with correct pattern (probably old 4-4-0 County one).

 

Replace buffers, chimney and saftey valve as required.

 

It probably wouldn't win any prizes but I think it might give a passable representation, the cost might be prohibitive, but I'd try and pick up the bits off ebay. And given the costs of even badly built saints on ebay is in excess of 70/80 quid (and there are based on the old B12 chassis and thus incorrect) it might work out cheaper

 

Any thoughts?

 

Rovex

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  • 9 years later...
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2 hours ago, Hilux5972 said:

I’m going to bring this topic back to the front page so we can stop clogging up the Large Prairie page talking about the Saint

Ian St. John or roger moore?

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On 26/01/2010 at 11:27, craigwelsh said:

Bachmann have not just released a City, the NRM has released their model of City of Truro which is made for them by Bachmann. Bachmann may or may not be able to use the tooling from this eventually to do other class members but it was an NRM project to model a popular preserved loco.

 

In that context it is unsurprising that Bachmann are reluctant to model a class that didn't really make it into the most popular period.

 

I would imagine we'll see a new King from Hornby before the earlier 4 cylinder type for the same reason though there is an eventual NRM tie-in with Lode Star.

 

Maybe the Saint model will come with the Didcot one taking to the rails.

 

I don't find it unusual to see more kits in 7mm now, 4mm has always been a more RTR scale and many of the older finescale modellers seem to up scale over time to 7mm. Pete Waterman is probably helping out the larger scale quite a bit here too!

Bachmann have released their own non NRM Cities. Birmingham and London are 2 that immediately spring to mind.

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5 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Given a real saint has just emerged as the 2nd completed newbuild of a long lost prototype, I suspect wishlists for a saint may start to grow.

 

This one is an open goal which screams....do it .Who’s first ? Hornby one might think.But who knows?

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As with the Manor, both Hornby and Bachmann gave chassis/mechs for GW outside cylinder 6 coupled locos whose wheelbase and spacing are suitable for the Saint, actually the progenitor of all these classes; large prairie, mogul, Hall, Grange, Manor.  The Hall and Grange share a boiler with the Saint, and the cylinder block is common to all these classes. 

 

Not it quite as straightforward as knocking a loco together out of standard and already produced existing parts, of course; different driving wheel diameters meant that the ‘set’ of the boiler in the frames was different between Saint, Hall, and Grange, and the existing chassis blocks need to be modified even if other components can be used.  

 

But both Hornby and Bachmann, and to some extent Dapol, are in a fairly strong position if they wanted to produce a Saint.  But would they want to? 

 

Don’t ask me, I don’t claim to understand the market or be able to predict what can be sold profitably.  Arguments against the Saint are that there are already a lot of GW 4-6-0s out there, and there were a lot of variations to cater for in a relatively small class.  A Saint is in many ways a secondary main line loco that lacks the glamour of the co-existent Stars. 

 

Arguments for are that it is a seminal GW loco that was very influential to future mixed traffic practice on the GW and LMS; the first Hall was rebuilt from one.  And the new build will attract a lot of attention. 

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The Saint is the only (AFAIK) class in the Hornby back catalogue that hasn't either been re-relaesed with upgrades or completely retooled. I doubt the old tools still exist (and wouldn't expect a re-issue of that tooling), but I have been expecting a new version to current standards for some time. I thought the approaching completion of the Lady of Legend project would be seen as an opportunity to produce a retooled version and am still hoping for an announcement.  I'm convinced Saints would sell in sufficient numbers to more than repay the investment. I have two of the old tooling that still serve to represent Saints and would buy at least two new ones.

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15 hours ago, petethemole said:

The Saint is the only (AFAIK) class in the Hornby back catalogue that hasn't either been re-relaesed with upgrades or completely retooled. 

 

As well as...

Rocket, LBSC E2, Polly, Dock Authority, Steeple cab, Rocket Car, APT, class 81, class 86, class 90, class 91, met cam DMU, class 25, class 28, class 29, classs 35, class 110, class 52, 3f, class 58, 57xx, L1, Ivatt 2MT

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1 hour ago, petethemole said:

OK, insert "GWR" before "class" and "apart from the 57xx" after. I was only thinking of steam locos anyway.

I would also add a nice Dean Single to complement that. Also, with tongue ib cheek, an oil-fired 39xx & 48xx.

 

Cheers,

 

Ian.

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Sandhole on RMWeb and myself have a competition as to who can model the most variants of Black 5 versus Saint. I think I am slightly ahead at the moment using a variety of tenders. with seven Saints, all different and a couple more planned. We could lobby for this one which may lead on to something else......

 

Mike Wiltshire

2912.jpg.dfed04c7a2625eff190ff9c8d01a88ff.jpg

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On 07/04/2019 at 15:27, adb968008 said:

 

As well as...

Rocket, LBSC E2, Polly, Dock Authority, Steeple cab, Rocket Car, APT, class 81, class 86, class 90, class 91, met cam DMU, class 25, class 28, class 29, classs 35, class 110, class 52, 3f, class 58, 57xx, L1, Ivatt 2MT

Which "Rocket"?

The OO gauge one or the 3.5" gauge live steam one?  :jester:

 

Are you thinking of the Triang Met Cam DMU? The most recent Hornby one was a rebadged Lima, not too bad, DCC ready too.

As for the rest, most of the tools were probably rusted together at the back of the Margate shed, and got tipped when they made the ill-advised move to Sandwich, though from SK's reaction on the TV programme, a lot of more recent tools got skipped too.

 

The Class 28 was a Hornby Dublo effort, nothing to do with Triang-Hornby* and didn't survive the dissolution of Binns Road anyway.

 

 

I had one of them Steeple Cabs, dreadful runner...

 

 

* No matter what the current incarnation of "Hornby" would like you to think.  All Triang really took in the way of models from Hornby Dublo was the E3001 model, which was better than the one they were working on!

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I have just come across the January 1987 issue of Railway Modeller which happens to have a review of the Saint. Despite what the review says, the photo shows that it was a very poor likeness which probably explains why I never bought one.

 

Brian

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On ‎30‎/‎11‎/‎2009 at 15:15, Horsetan said:

The Hornby Saint basically repeats all the errors of the old Rovex Hall moulding. And the driving wheelbase is wrong anyway!

 

It is the old Rovex hall tooling with some parts retooled. The boiler is so far off (stick it next to a modern Hall, Star or 28xx) that I would bother with it.

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