Plan to close over 800 Signal Boxes

[eastwestdivide]

Some of the listed ones may end up being moved elsewhere, according to this quote (from the English Heritage press release, here)
 

Jerry Swift, Network Rail's head of community rail, said:
...
"It is important that they have a life after the national railway network has finished with them and we are working with a number of heritage organisations to try to find suitable homes for them for the future."
...

Also, the 26 are just new listings. If you search EH's list, for "signal box", you get 119 results, including Midland ones at
Kettering

and

St Albans

[James Harrison]

There's one near where I live (Brereton Sidings) which is being donated to the Chasewater Railway.  Meanwhile a similar but larger box (both built in the 1870s/80s to a standard design by the LNWR) at my local station (Hednesford)... we don't know what will happen to it. 

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Here's the newly-listed Bournemouth West Jn. Except that the steps up to the box have been removed and you have to imagine a ruddy great grey prefabricated building between me and the box obscuring this view.

 

As the box has a brick base, it it were possible to resite it elsewhere how much of the original would remain.

 

Structures like this have a sense of "place" and a connection to their (railway) surroundings.

 

Are we in danger of creating a pseudo-history with buildings and other structures displaced from their original (meaningful) location to some museum or other.

[Dunsignalling]

Here's the newly-listed Bournemouth West Jn. Except that the steps up to the box have been removed and you have to imagine a ruddy great grey prefabricated building between me and the box obscuring this view.

 

As the box has a brick base, it it were possible to resite it elsewhere how much of the original would remain.

 

Structures like this have a sense of "place" and a connection to their (railway) surroundings.

 

Are we in danger of creating a pseudo-history with buildings and other structures displaced from their original (meaningful) location to some museum or other.

Better restored to operational use on a heritage railway (even as a tea-room) than left to gather brake dust in the middle of nowhere.

 

With no alternative use likely, I was quite relieved to watch 'mine' being demolished and, if I ever get sentimental about its loss, I look up my photos of its gutted interior.

 

A Signal Box without its working parts is little more than a tall conservatory.

 

John

[TheSignalEngineer]

 

 

The list seems very arbitary; not a single ex-Midland example.

Being mainly wooden ones they burn better, so fewer survived. Quite a few that did became allotment sheds in the days of the Lineman's firewood order.

[Peter Kazmierczak]

A very good resource will be found at http://www.networkrail.co.uk/signal-box-register.xls It looks like it's kept up to date as those recently listed grade 2 are noted as such (or under assessment from English Heritage)

[PaulRhB]

A Signal Box without its working parts is little more than a tall conservatory.

 

Or an ex loo in our panels case I'd agree with John there's nothing wrong with moving them especially if they can return to their original function as preserving the building without showing why it was built that way makes them less relevant to future generations. I'm glad they're listing more as despite style differences they have a common functional purpose of giving a good view of the railway and its interesting why certain features were chosen that make them look slightly different. One of the things lost today in architecture generally is function controlling style. It's difficult to tell what many modern buildings do behind blank walls of roller shutters or glass and metal panels.

[D1059]

And listing the boxes will mean precisely nothing if NR then let the buildings rot away, the local councils do nothing to enforce the maintenance requirements the listing demands, and then the boxes are demolished because they are in danger of collapse (ie like has happened at Dawlish)

[Tom Bayford]

Don't really see the point of listing some of these. Take the ex-LSW box at Bournemouth West Jn. It was never very visible at the best of times, stuck inside Bournemouth Traincare Depot. Now it's hidden behind a new paintshop building so hardly anyone (even railway staff) can see it.

 

What's the point?

 

The list seems very arbitary; not a single ex-Midland example.

You can still get to see it and the locking room the steps where taken down before they fell own due to rott problems mind you last time i was in the locking room of the box it was in a rough condition

[James]

And to me it's OK preserving the structure but it is very out of context - sadly for the most part we can't preserve the practices and the way of life which go with them. Here we have eight miles with eight boxes, the way they all work in harmony with each other would be lost even if you listed them all, not to mention the way of life which accompanies all of this.

 

The funny thing to me seems that over the 'net there are enthusiasts up in arms that boxes are going to be demolished en masse, yet hardly any seem bothered about those who work in them! The buildings are only a part of it, sadly there are many enthusiasts who cannot see this.

[RANGERS]

Some of the listed ones may end up being moved elsewhere, according to this quote (from the English Heritage press release, here)

 

Also, the 26 are just new listings. If you search EH's list, for "signal box", you get 119 results, including Midland ones at

Kettering

and

St Albans

'Don't know what happened to Kettering box but it's been gone for at least 20 years.

[Dunsignalling]

And to me it's OK preserving the structure but it is very out of context - sadly for the most part we can't preserve the practices and the way of life which go with them. Here we have eight miles with eight boxes, the way they all work in harmony with each other would be lost even if you listed them all, not to mention the way of life which accompanies all of this.

 

The funny thing to me seems that over the 'net there are enthusiasts up in arms that boxes are going to be demolished en masse, yet hardly any seem bothered about those who work in them! The buildings are only a part of it, sadly there are many enthusiasts who cannot see this.

Completely right, James. Signal boxes are just the most visible part of a complete culture that is unknown to many (even in other parts of the industry) unless they come looking for it. Do you yet know when your patch is to be dragged into the brave new world?

 

However, that's not the only context that will be lost. In places like Bournemouth West Jn, everything around the box has changed so much since it was last worked, that it will be out of context even if restored in situ.

 

John

[TheSignalEngineer]

'Don't know what happened to Kettering box but it's been gone for at least 20 years.

Kettering Station box went to Swanwick Junction c1988

[Xerces Fobe2]

And listing the boxes will mean precisely nothing if NR then let the buildings rot away, the local councils do nothing to enforce the maintenance requirements the listing demands, and then the boxes are demolished because they are in danger of collapse (ie like has happened at Dawlish)

Totally agree as we have this issue at Maidenhead with the former Skindles Nightclub next to the River Thames. It has been left to rot for over 15 years meanwhile the development hawks wait in the wings for it to crumble, then will be able to pick it up at literally knockdown price and make a killing with building expensive riverside properties. I think we can guess why the council sits back and let's this sort of thing happen !!!

 

XF

[James]

Indeed; on one forum there was someone almost gleefully willing the demise of a number of boxes in order that there may be extended Sunday morning operation on one particular route. I can only repeat my thoughts here as being that I hope all those in the signalling and maintenance grades who will be displaced either find employment within the industry or those who leave do so voluntarily and are at a time of life whereby severance a few years prior to retirement age without the prospect of further paid employment will be more of a benifit than a burden.

Sadly progress will allow lines to remain open for longer; our line will need just one person to man it instead of the ten staff required now. For the passenger and FOCs that will be a good thing. Most signallers understand the need to make progress, even if the whole ROC plan is a tad optimistic.

 

The GCR will com closest to preserving the signalling system but aside from galas there'll never be the really intensive working that the remaining mainlines have. Just a shame it's unseen for the most part; and we'll never preserve the grumpy relief who doesn't want to answer the phone at five in the morning! And some boxes, especially those at more minor crossings still form part of the community - regular users often know the signalmen by name and will shout up as they cross. But as with many things once it's gone, it's gone forever. Which is why it's important for those so inclined to go out and record what's left before it disappears. Flickr contains a great archive railway photos, including many of signal boxes and their operations. Things like this will mean those in the future will get an idea of how things were.

 

I think it will be nice that some boxes will remain as reminders, but essentially they seem to be saved for their architectural merit for the most part; not quite preserving them as they are as the future for some may rest on someone taking them over for other uses possibly.

 

And on a more positive note, I'm just setting off to go here -

 

Morning Mist by JamesWells, on Flickr

 

Can't think of many nicer sights to see as you arrive for work

[Dunsignalling]

Sadly progress will allow lines to remain open for longer; our line will need just one person to man it instead of the ten staff required now. For the passenger and FOCs that will be a good thing. Most signallers understand the need to make progress, even if the whole ROC plan is a tad optimistic.

 

The GCR will com closest to preserving the signalling system but aside from galas there'll never be the really intensive working that the remaining mainlines have. Just a shame it's unseen for the most part; and we'll never preserve the grumpy relief who doesn't want to answer the phone at five in the morning! And some boxes, especially those at more minor crossings still form part of the community - regular users often know the signalmen by name and will shout up as they cross. But as with many things once it's gone, it's gone forever. Which is why it's important for those so inclined to go out and record what's left before it disappears. Flickr contains a great archive railway photos, including many of signal boxes and their operations. Things like this will mean those in the future will get an idea of how things were.

 

I think it will be nice that some boxes will remain as reminders, but essentially they seem to be saved for their architectural merit for the most part; not quite preserving them as they are as the future for some may rest on someone taking them over for other uses possibly.

 

And on a more positive note, I'm just setting off to go here -

 

Morning Mist by JamesWells, on Flickr

 

Can't think of many nicer sights to see as you arrive for work

Unfortunately, the ROC concept is a one-size-fits-all idea and, as ever with such schemes, an awful lot will be spent in some areas to achieve not very much, purely to fit the template.

 

Our own situation was a bit unusual as there is an intermediate stage prior to creation of the ROC and it seems to have been used as a guinea pig to ascertain whether throwing extra manpower and money at something that looked like overrunning would get it back on track (it did, and then some).

 

I was one of the lucky ones as I did better out of redundancy than I would have if I had gone under my own steam in 2 or 3 years as I was intending.

 

Whether the economics stack up is another matter altogether, there wasn't much wrong with the equipment or buildings and what did need doing (mainly replacing knackered points) had to be done anyway or they would be burning out clamplocks for a pastime!

 

Conservatively, our patch lost 34 or 35 staff, mostly Grades 2 and 3, replaced by about 8 on Grade 5 (probably 6 when it goes to the ROC). Such figures as we were able to get hold of seem to indicate that the infrastructure costs average out at roughly £1.5 million for each job abolished (quite a few years wages!) and the new panel that fills the gap until the ROC comes on-stream has an expected life of 5 years.

 

It's all a numbers game. NR have promised the government that they will run the railway with less people but presented the costs of 'losing' them as money that would have had to be spent anyway (it would, but spread over many decades, not the two that most of the process will take to complete).

 

John

 

Edit to remove random smiley

[SM42]

This Bank Holiday weekend sees the closure of Bescot Down Tower, Walsall PSB, Hednesford, Bloxwich and Brereton Sidings.

 

A sad weekend for our railway heritage and the staff who worked it.

 

There are now only 2 operational mechanical boxes left on Network Rail in the Birmingham area as far as I can tell: Lichfield TV Jn and Tyseley No 1.

 

 

I believe we have also lost 4 boxes in the Nottingham area too. Anyone know which these are?

 

Andy

[beast66606]

Not sure about four but Rectory Junction, Netherfield Junction and Sneinton have deffinitely gone.

 

 

 

Trent PSB

[talisman56]

Probably on topic (as it is now)...

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-23912903

[jonathan452]

And maybe the consequences of 'putting all the eggs in one basket' ??????????????

 

Travel chaos for thousands as fire breaks out at London Bridge - http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/travel-chaos-for-thousands-as-fire-breaks-out-at-london-bridge-8965484.html

[roundhouse]

And maybe the consequences of 'putting all the eggs in one basket' ??????????????

 

Travel chaos for thousands as fire breaks out at London Bridge - http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/travel-chaos-for-thousands-as-fire-breaks-out-at-london-bridge-8965484.html

I was one of them!

[beast66606]

And maybe the consequences of 'putting all the eggs in one basket' ??????????????

 

Travel chaos for thousands as fire breaks out at London Bridge - http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/travel-chaos-for-thousands-as-fire-breaks-out-at-london-bridge-8965484.html

 

But the alternate risk if they don't

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-suffolk-25085912

[96701]

But the alternate risk if they don't

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-suffolk-25085912

See also

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2276913/Signalman-stuck-toilet-Excuse-delayed-train-revealed-frustrated-passengers-held-hour.html

[ess1uk]

See also

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2276913/Signalman-stuck-toilet-Excuse-delayed-train-revealed-frustrated-passengers-held-hour.html

He must be the only bobby not to have a cell phone?

[beast66606]

During a dispute with management many years ago, a Wirral signal box, Seacombe Junction, earned the nickname Senapod Junction because the bobbys were always caught short just as the peak started, and they had to switch out to go - causing delays.