Sand PAA's

[scottiedog80]

Hi,

 

I am currently working on some scratch built PAA hoppers to model the sand train that runs to Kings Lynn. But I do not know who would own the hoppers in 1992. Was it BIS (British Industrial Sand) or WBB Minerals.

 

These must be the least photographed wagons ever! So if anyone knows your help would be greatly appreciated.

 

Here are a couple of photos. I started to detail the first one and realised that it is slightly the wrong shape, but as I have made 7 shells I'm not going to waste them. The next 4 will be the correct shape. I have made them so that they sit on the base on an RMC PGA Hopper.

[Rivercider]

The only close up picture I can find at present is in the 1989 book Rail Freight today (by OPC)

PAA no. BIS 7987 with 'bis British Industrial Sand' logo.

Looking on the internet, it appears BIS was formed following a merger in 1951,

and in the 1970s the company was taken over by HMC Hepworth Minerals and Chemicals.

WBB appear to have acquired HMC in July 2000, so I would assume in 1992 the wagons

would still be displaying a BIS livery as I don't remember seeing any pictures of hoppers labelled for HMC.

I can't claim any local knowledge, my last spotting/photography trip to East Anglia was late 1980s.

 

cheers

[hmrspaul]

The few photographs I took of these after 1987 (1990, 1992) show them being repainted into plain white without any special branding. I saw the WBB repaints many times as I passed up and down the ECML but never managed to photograph them. But these came later.

 

Paul Bartlett

[new puritan]

The few photographs I took of these after 1987 (1990, 1992) show them being repainted into plain white without any special branding. I saw the WBB repaints many times as I passed up and down the ECML but never managed to photograph them. But these came later.

 

Paul Bartlett

 

 

I agree Paul as my spreadsheet on these shows I took my first picture of these in plain white on 02.05.90 and the last time one was recorded in BIS livery was during October 1990. All I have to do now is find them and find time to scan them.

 

I have taken hundreds of [yet to be studied] pictures of WBB livery sand hoppers in the last decade but having not been anywhere near the top of my list of my 'preferred' targets to spend my limited spare time with I have to admit I am unaware of what/or any modifications they may have had since the early 1990s.

 

 

Mark Franklin

[RichG]

There's recently been a whole series of photo's of these in WBB livery posted on flickr. See

http://www.flickr.com/photos/57849754@N07/6143718386/

and photos around that.

 

These were taken in 2009, so long after the period you're interested in, but might be useful.

[hmrspaul]

 

 

I agree Paul as my spreadsheet on these shows I took my first picture of these in plain white on 02.05.90 and the last time one was recorded in BIS livery was during October 1990. All I have to do now is find them and find time to scan them.

 

I have taken hundreds of [yet to be studied] pictures of WBB livery sand hoppers in the last decade but having not been anywhere near the top of my list of my 'preferred' targets to spend my limited spare time with I have to admit I am unaware of what/or any modifications they may have had since the early 1990s.

 

 

Mark Franklin

Mark

 

Yes like me, not been near the top of my scanning list either.

 

The concept that "not easily found on the internet" equals "These must be the least photographed wagons ever" is well - annoying or just amusing? I know of people who have visited Middleton Towers, and there will be multiple photos of these - I didn't do them so well, so only have a couple of dozen. What is not realised is that before digital photography, photography was expensive and also it takes time to scan and label each individual pre digital photograph, and major collections are not being released as anything other than books.

 

Paul Bartlett

[hmrspaul]

Dear Anonymous

 

Here we go, a selection of photographs from the period you are interested in (and earlier). http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/bispaa

 

and http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/class31

 

Paul Bartlett

[hmrspaul]

Dear Anonymous

 

I would be interested to know if you have found these photographs of any use. You have no name or contact details on your profile.

 

I was only attempting to be helpful.

 

Paul Bartlett

[Glorious NSE]

Nice work Paul

 

I've a few also which are also online, so even in modern terms not the least shot ever - i'd nominate maybe some of DRS's 'local' container flats used on the Cumbrian coast...anyhow - PAAs here: http://ukrailwaypics...covered-hoppers - all of the modern fleet though so not of much use to the OP in livery terms.

Edited September 22, 2011 by Glorious NSE

[hmrspaul]

Dear Anonymous

 

I would be interested to know if you have found these photographs of any use. You have no name or contact details on your profile.

 

I was only attempting to be helpful.

 

Paul Bartlett

I remain interested in knowing whether you found these photographs of use

[hmrspaul]

Are these the wagons in question?

 

I know this one is more recent but it is a sand wagon

 

 

Yes it is. The entire fleet was refurbished and Glorious NSE linked to many. http://ukrailwaypics.smugmug.com/UKRailRollingstock/P-Tops-codes/PAA-covered-hoppers/18073359_xGZTQN#1386296180_HGkV8Qw I remember seeing them regularly like this, but have not bothered to go to Doncaster (not very far from York!) to photograph them!

 

Paul Bartlett

[scottiedog80]

Hi Guys,

Sorry it has taken me so long to reply, but I work shifts and have not been able to get on here as much as I would like.

Thank you for all your posts! It’s much appreciated.

I have look through the photos briefly and they are exactly what I am looking for. I will have a more detailed look and keep you all posted on my progress.

Thanks again.

Scott

[aasmall]

Evening All,

 

I have just ordered one of these conversion kits from Shapeways, does anyone have any experience building one of the PAA's from this kit?

 

https://www.shapeways.com/product/24ZN4XY68/paa41-bis-quot-paa-quot-sand-hopper-wagon-sealed-top

 

Thanks,

 

Andy

[Marcoblanco]

Let us know what they are like.. I will probably follow you..

[aasmall]

I do apologise for the late reply but the BIS Sand PAA from Northern Bridge 3D Models has progressed (relatively well) since then.

The parts are very nice, it’s my first time working with 3D printed parts. I did manage to lose the end horizontal ribs members but some Evergreen strip was substituted. Very minor filling and sanding between the hopper lid and the hopper to get a smooth transition.

 

The work undertaken was to:

• Removed all the moulded detail from the chassis
• Removed the Hornby PGA sloping ends with a razor saw
• Stripped the paint and printed "graffiti" from the CAIB model using Mr Muscle oven cleaner, the graffiti took a few goes..

Added:

• Northern Bridge 3D Models ends and canopy
• 51L 16” Oleos
• 6 spoke etched brass handweels
• 0.3mm diameter wire for the air brake pipes
• 0.45mm diameter wire for the control cables pipe (I think this is only on the BIS liveried ones)
• Etched Brass Ladder
• Olympia Models Westinghouse Air brake tank and distributor, also from Shapeways – it’s actually for the Yeoman PGA006 (PR14000 series) with the base cut off. I was going to add 51L’s white metal ones but they didn’t quite look right to me
• Some cosmetic etched brass coupling hooks and bases

 

I also noticed that at least some of these had brake blocks fortunately just as I was about to fit etched disc brakes to the wheels so might have a think about how these could be done, I think the 51L PCA tank wagon kit might has some.

At least one of the wagons, BIS7944 has black air brake tanks and floors between the sloping ends and the hopper ends compared to the majority which had white tanks and floors which will help hide the scars. Thanks to Paul Bartlett for posting the photos above.

Shapeways blog recommend Tamiya fine primer for their materials so I used this rather than Halfords but I’d imagine it makes little difference. Once primed I noted that the hopper lid was much rougher than the surrounding plastic so I think some Tamiya Mr Surfacer might be required to get a uniform finish.

 

During searching for details, I found some nice photos of the wagons on flickr including some in small numbers 3 and 6 wagons possibly for repair:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/16313630@N07/6646613999/in/photolist-ko6MyA-9oESg1-Ww28iP-fuEhKw-jB9eMH-8hyn9B-nGWcEP-8DFAjK-8Ma186-9QAqvu-7VJrZU-b8kCM6-pMph1h-7XqUQ8-8M9ghW-7S9ejv-8DRFhh-8xLxsV-8xLzy4-8vSnNi-dEBimg-9VBn2R-8faw3P-9MGmfc-b7ynPc

 

Artwork is available but I haven't had these printed yet. There also seems to have been all over white versions.

 

Overall a very pleasant and fairly easy conversion of the Hornby PGA.

 

Some pictures I have handy:

 

 

[gobbler]

I do like to see a bit of scratch building/conversion.

 

Looking good so far.

 

General Q.

What drawings do you use??

 

Cheers

 

Scott

[aasmall]

I do like to see a bit of scratch building/conversion.

Looking good so far.

General Q.

What drawings do you use??

Cheers

Scott

Hi Scott,

 

There is a drawing on the manufacturers page;

 

https://nb3dm.wordpress.com/the-paa-sand-wagon/

 

Cheers,

 

Andy

[Lyddrail]

 

During searching for details, I found some nice photos of the wagons on flickr including some in small numbers 3 and 6 wagons possibly for repair:

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/16313630@N07/6646613999/in/photolist-ko6MyA-9oESg1-Ww28iP-fuEhKw-jB9eMH-8hyn9B-nGWcEP-8DFAjK-8Ma186-9QAqvu-7VJrZU-b8kCM6-pMph1h-7XqUQ8-8M9ghW-7S9ejv-8DRFhh-8xLxsV-8xLzy4-8vSnNi-dEBimg-9VBn2R-8faw3P-9MGmfc-b7ynPc

 

 

 

Andy,

Very interesting what you are doing for these wagons. I am building a small layout of Redhill Up Yard and this could be the answer to the PAAs I need. I suspect the picture you found shows empties to be dropped off at Redhill for the nearby Holmethorpe sand sidings.

I intend to do some with canopies and some without to cover the 1980s to 1990s periods,

Thanks for you information.

Cheers.

[Winter123]

So I just thought I'd share my efforts on this subject. I can hardly claim a scratch build here because I've used the basic Hornby PGA wagon together with the modified Shapeways roof canopy and attached etched ladder and overhead decals. There are two types of material you can get for the roof. A white versatile plastic version is about £15 and the one I used was made of smooth fine detail plastic for about £22. I went for the finer material as the write up claimed the intricate detail of the mechanism was more defined (which it is). I managed to get the base wagon for about £7.50 a few years ago so with Tamiya matt white spray the total cost was about £32 which is the same as (in my opinion) the gold standard PGA (Cavalex). The original Hornby model is very rare as it was only released for one year, I believe 1991, and now goes for ridiculous amounts on auction sites (the last I saw was £84 for 3!!). I wish they would re-release it, even though it is completely inaccurate as it would be great to make a small rake. I don't think BIS ever had PGA versions so I though I'd have a crack at improving what I had. Haven't gone for major accuracy and still have to change the PGA to PAA decals. Anyway hope this is of interest

[donny rovers]

ive done 9 so far 

 

[donny rovers]

here a few of my 

[Fat Controller]

Lovely work from both of you.

I have a nagging feeling that BIS did have some open-topped hoppers at one point, though I haven't found any evidence to back that up yet. Different glassworks had different specifications for the sand, and would have used different wagons for them.

[eastwestdivide]

Here's a grubby BIS 7940 at March in 1985 if it's any help:

[donny rovers]

On 27/06/2019 at 09:31, Fat Controller said:

Lovely work from both of you.

I have a nagging feeling that BIS did have some open-topped hoppers at one point, though I haven't found any evidence to back that up yet. Different glassworks had different specifications for the sand, and would have used different wagons for them.

The  research  that me and paul wade have done is that the one without doors use to work to redhill 

[Winter123]

On 26/06/2019 at 23:19, donny rovers said:

here a few of my 

Great stuff. This must be a Donny thing!!