TPO and parcel trains

[TomJ]

Forgive me if I am asking a really daft question here. What is the difference (apart from the obvious) between the TPO and parcels trains. Did they run together as one train carrying mail and parcels or where they always seperate. Also did the TPOs only run as block trains of several or can I get away with just a few? Finally did the TPOs only link London with other big cities or did some small destinations get them?

 

I'm asking because the Farish TPO vans look rather nice and I'm looking for an excuse to run them on my 80s BR secondary line

[Karhedron]

I am not an expert (although I am sure some will be along shortly ) but I will do my best.

 

TPOs used to sort mail during the journey, a such it had special sorting vehicles for the post office staff (as modelled by Bachmann/Farish). Parcels trains had no sorting and simply had lots of enclosed vehicles for carrying parcels.

 

TPOs could run in small numbers and were sometimes mixed in with normal passenger workings. There is a rather nice shot somewhere of a maroon Warship hauling a single a Penzance - Liverpool train. The first vehicle is a TPO followed by a couple of Siphon G's and the rest of the train is blue-grey passenger coaches.

[Karhedron]

One of the shortest postal trains was the 2000 Cardiff - Crewe and 0147 return in the late 70s/early 80s which ran as BSK, BCK, POS, BG.

[Phil R]

Hi

 

Small destinations did get them - good example of a short, easily modelled train is the Huddersfield - Whitehaven TPO which ran up until 1991. Usual formation was 1 TPO (same as the Farish model), 3-4 BGs

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/26357805@N06/4196633783/

 

Interesting site here

 

http://www.allanyeo.co.uk/index.html

 

Cheers

 

Phil

[The Stationmaster]

TPOs were a category of Mail Train which, as the name (Travelling Post Office) implies carried PO staff who sorted mail (letter mail only I believe) enroute and which also in a number of cases picked up and set down mail at special lineside apparatus without the need to come to a stand. Trains classified as a Mail Train could also be formed of ordinary NPCCS vehicles but would basically only convey mails (which could include both Letter Mail and Parcel Post.

 

On the other hand Parcel Trains were trains which were basically there to convey parcels which were sent via the railway's parcel collection and delivery network or had been brought to a station by customers or had been loaded in a customer's private siding. But parcels trains could also convey mail traffic although this would normally be most likely to be Parcel Post if it was in large quantities unlesss there was somewhere suitably secure for loading Letter Mail and staff were available to load and unload it. The last point is important because under the 1928 contract between the Railway Companies and the Post Office the handling of Letter Mail at railway stations was in the hands of Postal personnel while Parcel Post was handled by railway staff.

 

Most Mail Trains (even if not necessarily shown as such in the WTT), a few passenger trains, and one lorry trip were listed in the 1928 contract as 'Controlled Trains' and their timings could not be altered without the express permission of the Post Office - line closures apart none of them had changed, except in detail of the timings, by the early 1970s (including the lorry trip - which represented the only instance in which a BR owned road vehicle carried PO mails). All of this was swept away under a wave of new contractual arrangements in, I think, the late 1970s/early '80s.

[brossard]

Related to this I have a coach detail question.

 

I have seen pictures of TPO coaches with offset corridor connections. I assume this was for security to prevent ingress from other parts of the train. I note that the Bachmann Mk1 TPO coach has these in the central position. Is this correct?

 

John

[Southernman46]

The also used to be a Willesen - Dover - Willesden TPO in the 90's that was BG & 2 TPO vehicles. The mail was sorted en-route and unloaded at Dover for distribution around East Kent. The return train carried mail from Dover and also picked up at Ashford.

[griffgriff]

Related to this I have a coach detail question.

 

I have seen pictures of TPO coaches with offset corridor connections. I assume this was for security to prevent ingress from other parts of the train. I note that the Bachmann Mk1 TPO coach has these in the central position. Is this correct?

 

John

 

Yes

[Hairy Bear Digital]

Even shorter TPO was the Lincoln to Derby which comprised a POS(sorting) and 1 BG.It joined up with the Peterboro to Crewe TPO at Derby which was formed of 2 BG ,POS and POT.

[Oldddudders]

The also used to be a Willesen - Dover - Willesden TPO in the 90's that was BG & 2 TPO vehicles. The mail was sorted en-route and unloaded at Dover for distribution around East Kent. The return train carried mail from Dover and also picked up at Ashford.

I suspect this was to/from the Royal Mail Wembley Hub, which always seemed to be a magnet for bright red EMUs and TPOs. I imagine MLVs might have got there on occasion, too?

 

EDIT : After all, it's not that far from the third-rail juice at Mitre Bridge Junction!

Edited September 21, 2011 by Oldddudders

[Fat Controller]

I suspect this was to/from the Royal Mail Wembley Hub, which always seemed to be a magnet for bright red EMUs and TPOs. I imagine MLVs might have got there on occasion, too?

 

EDIT : After all, it's not that far from the third-rail juice at Mitre Bridge Junction!

Prior to the opening of the Wembley hub, the train was a Norwich- Dover working, I believe.

At one point in the late 1990s, the train would have a loco at either end- it would work down to Dover in the morning, go back to Ashford to be stabled during the day, then the process would be reversed, with the Up service running about 19:30. I'd often see it at Sandling when waiting to pick Lynne up.

Odd ECS workings like this seemed to be a feature of Royal Mail workings- the stock for the Milford Haven/Carmarthen- Bristol service would be worked back to Maliphant St, Swansea for stabling during the day. Presumably the Post Office specified 'secure parking' for the stock.

[DerekEm8]

The TPO services were all cleverly linked.

For example The Aberystwyth/Shrewsbury?-York connected with the West Coast Postal at Crewe and the Whitehaven- Huddersfield at Huddersfield before continuing to York where it made further connections.

The starting points and destinations on most TPOs were not really significant, The connections that they made with other TPOs en route was the significant factor.

I saw a copy of the the old BR/TPO Network diagram some years ago wich showed all the railway 'hubs' and all the TPO interconnections radiating from them it was really something amazing and it all usually happened at dead of night so not too many photos available, in fact only official ones seemed to appear in the mags of the time.

[Classsix T]

Related to this I have a coach detail question.

 

I have seen pictures of TPO coaches with offset corridor connections. I assume this was for security to prevent ingress from other parts of the train. I note that the Bachmann Mk1 TPO coach has these in the central position. Is this correct?

 

John

The corridor connection is offset as one side of the coach is taken up with sorting desks and shelves.

C6T.

[TomJ]

Thanks everyone that's really helpful. Looks like the credit card will be busy!

 

I'm I correct that for a mid to late 80s layout I need the blue/grey ones rather than the nice red Royal Mail ones?

[mozzer models]

Related to this I have a coach detail question.

 

I have seen pictures of TPO coaches with offset corridor connections. I assume this was for security to prevent ingress from other parts of the train. I note that the Bachmann Mk1 TPO coach has these in the central position. Is this correct?

 

John

pre grouping TPOs had the offset corrider the BR Mk1 TPOs had the center Corrider but if the Mk1 was built to work with pre grouping TPOs then they were built with the offset

[Southernman46]

The TPO services were all cleverly linked.

For example The Aberystwyth/Shrewsbury?-York connected with the West Coast Postal at Crewe and the Whitehaven- Huddersfield at Huddersfield before continuing to York where it made further connections.

The starting points and destinations on most TPOs were not really significant, The connections that they made with other TPOs en route was the significant factor.

I saw a copy of the the old BR/TPO Network diagram some years ago wich showed all the railway 'hubs' and all the TPO interconnections radiating from them it was really something amazing and it all usually happened at dead of night so not too many photos available, in fact only official ones seemed to appear in the mags of the time.

 

The York - Shrewsbury service was one of those that carried passenger accomodation in the train (as did others) and I used this to make a overnight transit from York to Swansea during a rail-rover in 1983. It arrived at Shrewsbury in time to connect with a train that travelled over the Central Wales line and deposit one in Swansea before breakfast. It was a fasinating journey - can you imagine anything quite so convenient these days. The TPO I remember left & arrived at Crewe at least 3 different times - shunting moves with other TPO's, I presume (I was too tired to check). Also posted a letter to my father into the TPO at York (just to get the TPO postmark) - this service was available for the exhorbitant cost of 1p extra on the 1st class postage !!! We have lost so much even from comparatively recent times.

[Galtee More]

Even shorter TPO was the Lincoln to Derby which comprised a POS(sorting) and 1 BG.It joined up with the Peterboro to Crewe TPO at Derby which was formed of 2 BG ,POS and POT.

 

Derby was always an important mail hub. Certainly in steam days, however, the Lincoln - Derby train was known as the 'Tamworth Mail' and, I believe, ran through to Tamworth. This was, presumably, for transfer of mails, from High Level to Low Level, to a WCML service. I believe this train also had passenger accommodation. I recall it running through the outer suburbs of Nottingham (towards that city), travelling rather fast, hauled by an ex-LMS 2-6-4T.

Ian.

Edited September 22, 2011 by Galtee More

[melmerby]

The corridor connection on offset vehicles is significantly wider than the standard (non-Pullman) type being almost half coach width.

 

There are some excellent shots of ex-GWR vehicles, inside & out, in Russell's Coaches Appendix Vol.2

Also ditto LMS vehicles in Essery & Jenkinson LMS coaches part3.

P.S. not all offset corridor vehicles had sorting racks and TPO vehicles were built to "Big 4" designs right through to the start of Mk1 construction (early 50's).

 

Keith

Edited September 22, 2011 by melmerby

[The Stationmaster]

P.S. not all offset corridor vehicles had sorting racks.

Keith

Stowage vans would obviously need offset gangways in order to be able to work with sorting vehicles on the busier trains. Easy to overlook that on some of the long distance trains the sorters could get through large amounts of mail which simply could not be stored in the sorting vehicles but had to go elsewhere - through the gangways to/from stowage vans.

[Karhedron]

I'm I correct that for a mid to late 80s layout I need the blue/grey ones rather than the nice red Royal Mail ones?

I thikn that red was reintroduced in the late 80s as sectorisation took hold so you could probably use red ones if you like. The correct red version for this period is Farish catalogue item No 374-903.

 

http://www.bourtonmodelrailway.co.uk/images/_lib/graham-farish-374903-br-mk-i-tpo-royal-mail-letters-red-5038-0-1314524332000.jpg

Edited September 22, 2011 by Karhedron

[Phil R]

Hi

 

Karhedron is correct. Some blue/grey TPO vehicles were certainly running into 1988 but the majority were repainted into red with the yellow lettering. The first batch appeared in September 1986 and had red roofs but I'm guessing they got dirty very quickly so were abandoned. The final livery of red with the large white "Royal Mail Travelling Post Office" script was introduced in 1991.

 

Regards

 

Phil

Edited September 22, 2011 by Phil R

[hmrspaul]

A few photographs from the later 1980s are in this collection http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brtpo

 

Paul Bartlett

[melmerby]

Stowage vans would obviously need offset gangways in order to be able to work with sorting vehicles on the busier trains. Easy to overlook that on some of the long distance trains the sorters could get through large amounts of mail which simply could not be stored in the sorting vehicles but had to go elsewhere - through the gangways to/from stowage vans.

And also the vehicles with lineside pick-up set-down apparatus, which didn't have sorting positions.

 

Keith

[ess1uk]

try looking here

http://www.nvr.org.uk/MailByRail/tpointroduction.php

[Dave777]

You can also bung a brake second onto TPO trains as (from what I have read/seen) sorters would go and have a sit down or swap shifts.