TPO and parcel trains

[TheSignalEngineer]

 

 

Derby was always an important mail hub. Certainly in steam days, however, the Lincoln - Derby train was known as the 'Tamworth Mail' and, I believe, ran through to Tamworth. This was, presumably, for transfer of mails, from High Level to Low Level, to a WCML service. I believe this train also had passenger accommodation. I recall it running through the outer suburbs of Nottingham (towards that city), travelling rather fast, hauled by an ex-LMS 2-6-4T.

 

Ian.

Tamworth was the big interchange point between NE-SW and West Coast pre-electrification. The 19:30 Bristol - Newcastle and 19:05 Newcastle - Bristol trains had Post Office traffic as well as passenger coaches (and sleepers IIRC). After electrification the West Coast Postal ran via Birmingham and most of the interchanges were made there and at Derby.

[Rivercider]

I know this is a bit late, but I have just re-located my photographic notes,

and have managed to scan a couple of poor shots of a short formation TPO service.

 

TPO service arriving at Workington behind 47555 10/7/84

 

40155 about to work the ECS away from Workington 10/7/84

(the last exposure on the film )

 

cheers

Edited October 26, 2011 by Rivercider

[swhite01]

Late to add to this topic but there has been discussion re short TPO's to possibly take advantage of the Bachmann Vehicles.

 

One of the shortest workings in the 90's was the Chester Relief (or Bag tender).This did an out and back working from Crewe to Chester. I have added some sightings from 91 & 92 and hope they may be of interest. My notes show liveries of the vehicles but also the change laterly to the riding van used on a number of the long distance TPO's. This working was also the preserve of the early BR vehicles, 80300/80301.

 

Crewe 1.7.91 TPO 00.03am 10 Chester Relief 31413 92305 B/G 80301 RMTPO 92262 R+Y Crewe 31.7.91 TPO 23.45pm 10 Chester Relief 47846 IC LG Bot 92386 B/G 80301 RMTPO 92340 R+Y Crewe 18.3.92 TPO D00.49 10 Chester Relief 47530 NSE 92303 B/G 80300 RM 92246 R+Y Crewe 8.7.92 TPO 23.50pm 10 Chester Relief 47582 80224 B/G 80301 RMTPO 92176 R+Y Coach Liveries:- B/G - Blue Grey R+Y - Royal Mail red with yellow double line and BR symbol RMTPO/RM - Royal Mail Red with 1991 white logos eithe Royal Mail Traveling Post office or Royal Mail Loco Liveries:- IC LG Bot - Inter City livery, Large numbers at bottom of cab side below drivers window NSE - Network South East Livery.

 

 

Steve

Edited October 26, 2011 by swhite01

[RJS1977]

Even later to this topic, here's a question of my own:

 

The TPO vehicles which could pick up and drop off mailbags on the move only had the equipment on one side.

 

So, would they need to be turned for the return journey? Would this have been done on turntables?

 

And would all the other coaches with offset gangways also need to be turned so they would still match up?

 

Given the number of loco shed layouts I'm surprised I've never seen it being done on a layout if this was indeed the case.

[luckymucklebackit]

Even later to this topic, here's a question of my own:

 

The TPO vehicles which could pick up and drop off mailbags on the move only had the equipment on one side.

 

So, would they need to be turned for the return journey? Would this have been done on turntables?

 

And would all the other coaches with offset gangways also need to be turned so they would still match up?

 

Given the number of loco shed layouts I'm surprised I've never seen it being done on a layout if this was indeed the case.

 

The West Coast Postal would either go out for an early evening run round the Hamilton Circle to turn the train ready for the journey south or it would work from Polmadie over to Shields Road and reverse into Glasgow Central, don't know what the equivalent working was at the London end.

 

Jim

[Fat Controller]

Even later to this topic, here's a question of my own:

 

The TPO vehicles which could pick up and drop off mailbags on the move only had the equipment on one side.

 

So, would they need to be turned for the return journey? Would this have been done on turntables?

 

And would all the other coaches with offset gangways also need to be turned so they would still match up?

 

Given the number of loco shed layouts I'm surprised I've never seen it being done on a layout if this was indeed the case.

I think they often used triangles at junctions when these were available; it would save breaking and remaking the rake. With the Carmarthen- Bristol Postal, there were triangles at Carmarthen, Swansea and Bristol. I've never seen a shot of one being turned on a turntable, though it probably occured.

[robertcwp]

I have seen film of TPO stock being taken from Bristol up to Mangotsfield to be turned on the triangle there.

 

I think some trains were marshalled with the stock arranged so that they did not need to be turned but this might have been in the Mark I era. Not sure what happened with the West of England TPO as I don't think there was a triangle anywhere near Penzance.

Edited January 25, 2015 by robertcwp

[Andy W]

One fairly obvious solution was to have two vehicles in the train equipped with pickup and drop off gear,, with the gear on opposite sides so one vehicle would always be available for use. The vehicle not being used for drops/collections in a particular direction could still be used for sorting and bag stowage so not dead weight. Of course not many trains required multiple sorting carriages so triangles would be needed for those that really could only justify one coach.

In the pre-Mark 1 era postal vehicles had offset gangways so turntables wouldn't be a viable option, it would take too long to turn several vehicles so the gangways would still line up. I do wonder what they did with odd vehicles detached and attached en route.

[RJS1977]

One fairly obvious solution was to have two vehicles in the train equipped with pickup and drop off gear,, with the gear on opposite sides so one vehicle would always be available for use. The vehicle not being used for drops/collections in a particular direction could still be used for sorting and bag stowage so not dead weight. Of course not many trains required multiple sorting carriages so triangles would be needed for those that really could only justify one coach.

In the pre-Mark 1 era postal vehicles had offset gangways so turntables wouldn't be a viable option, it would take too long to turn several vehicles so the gangways would still line up. I do wonder what they did with odd vehicles detached and attached en route.

 

But wouldn't the offset gangways stymie having two vehicles in the train opposite ways round?

[Coach bogie]

On the GWR certain vehicles had pick up nets on both sides. The GW TPO from London to Penzance was not turned and just return to London facing the same way. The offset net allowed pick up in the reverse direction.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[73c]

RJS1977  The off-set corridors would still be the same side when the train returned to collect them. Highly unlikely, if ever, off-set and central corridors would run together as to dangerous to pass thro' .

[45125]

I think they often used triangles at junctions when these were available; it would save breaking and remaking the rake. With the Carmarthen- Bristol Postal, there were triangles at Carmarthen, Swansea and Bristol. I've never seen a shot of one being turned on a turntable, though it probably occured.

The TPO at Aberdeen was turned on the turntable at Ferryhill at one time.

[Graham Walters]

Here are some pics that may clear up a few issues :

 

 

In the first two pictures you can clearly see how the letters were sorted from the bench to the relative pigeon holes, which were all numbered, each section is the same. the mail would then be banded and placed into sacks held on the hooks in the last pic, these sacks would then be put into the leather bags to be dumped at the correct stations by the retrieval system.

 

You can also see that the corridor is offset.

 

This is an LMS TPO, currently undergoing restoration at Butterly.

[Crewlisle]

Digressing from the nitty gritty details of TPOs, I remember spending a night on Crewe station on an All Line Rail Rover with my son in 1983. It was unbelievable the volume of mail transferred on the platforms from the numerous TPOs over a 2 hour period from all corners of the UK. This was in addition to all the various sleeper trains from/to London, Manchester, Liverpool, Glasgow & Edinburgh. Happy days!

[Coach bogie]

RJS1977  The off-set corridors would still be the same side when the train returned to collect them. Highly unlikely, if ever, off-set and central corridors would run together as to dangerous to pass thro' .

 The GWR had vans full brake vans with offset at one end and central corridor at the other to solve this issue. Didcot's Collett 1184 is being restored to this condition.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[br2975]

But wouldn't the offset gangways stymie having two vehicles in the train opposite ways round?

 

Not if the 'offset' corridor connections on each vehicle are diagonally opposite each other.

.

Brian R

Edited January 26, 2015 by br2975

[dp123]

The also used to be a Willesen - Dover - Willesden TPO in the 90's that was BG & 2 TPO vehicles. The mail was sorted en-route and unloaded at Dover for distribution around East Kent. The return train carried mail from Dover and also picked up at Ashford.

This was the train that piqued my interest in railways as a kid. Used to run with a 73 in a circular route from Ashford - Minster - Deal - Dover - Ashford, so I would catch it charging up the bank to Walmer around six in the evening, massive arcs as it went over the bridge gap at Walmer. The route changed when EWS top and tailed it, IIRC. That section of the Kent coast saw very little variation from CEP/VEPs (to think I once thought these boring), so it was welcome to see the immaculate red RES/RM coaches at speed, with a tatty ED at the helm.

[73c]

For some reason the ealier Southern TPO's were green, not the Royal Mail red as else where

[Londontram]

I'm affraid I'm not very clued uup on TPOs from recent times but in the mid to late 1800s the LNWR built all its coaches with off set corridors but this was found impractical in normal service so any passenger coaches already built were converted and all new builds were built with a central corridor except the TPO fleet as it was not seen as necessary cost wise to change these for the Angola Scottish and other trains. 

      Around 1890 six 42ft full brakes were built to the same pattern as standard brakes but with off set corridors to work with the mail trains. I think off the top of my head the Caledonian while running WCJS TPOs run short mail trains to out laying towns consisting of one mail coach and one of the modified brakes and the agreement with the Royal Mail was that up to four passenger coaches could be run in the formation with them. All ways worth a look is the 1030s classic film "Night Mail" which gives a good look at how it used to be done. Steve

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkLoDg7e_ns

[bristolian]

Morning everyone,

 

Can someone please tell me when the 19:34 Bristol - Newcastle TPO (1E38) ceased running, and did it become the Bristol - Derby TPO instead?.

Also, what was the booked departure time (in 1987) of the Bristol - Derby TPO, and what was its' headcode?.

 

Thanks in advance.

 

Very Best Wishes,

Bob.

[ChrisH-UK]

Morning everyone,

 

Can someone please tell me when the 19:34 Bristol - Newcastle TPO (1E38) ceased running, and did it become the Bristol - Derby TPO instead?.

Also, what was the booked departure time (in 1987) of the Bristol - Derby TPO, and what was its' headcode?.

 

Thanks in advance.

 

Very Best Wishes,

Bob.

 

I recently discovered a magazine with an article about a review of TPO services in 1988, it had a diagram of the old order which had two services each way between Bristol and Derby. One was the 19:35 "Midland TPO Going North" (yes that's really how it was marked) which returned from Derby at 00:40, the second was the 01:10 "Bristol - Derby TPO" which appears to be the return leg of a service from Derby at 20:20.

 

The article suggests that from October 1988 TPO services between Bristol and Derby would be provided by a 19:22 Penzance - Derby service but there was also a "bag tender" from Bristol to Sheffield at 21:40 that connected with a TPO to Leeds/Newcastle.

Would the bag tender have been just BGs and GUVs or might it have included TPO vehicles?

[Karhedron]

Another possibility for people looking to add a single POS to existing trains would be something like this. Here is the 12.00 noon from Penzance to Manchester on the 3rd June 1960

 

Edited February 4, 2016 by Karhedron

[phil_sutters]

Here is the up TPO having just exchanged bags at the Highbridge mail pick-up point. I was never aware of a down pick-up point at Highbridge, although I did hear someone had seen mention of it in TPO schedules.

[phil_sutters]

I'm affraid I'm not very clued uup on TPOs from recent times but in the mid to late 1800s the LNWR built all its coaches with off set corridors but this was found impractical in normal service so any passenger coaches already built were converted and all new builds were built with a central corridor except the TPO fleet as it was not seen as necessary cost wise to change these for the Angola Scottish and other trains. 

      Around 1890 six 42ft full brakes were built to the same pattern as standard brakes but with off set corridors to work with the mail trains. I think off the top of my head the Caledonian while running WCJS TPOs run short mail trains to out laying towns consisting of one mail coach and one of the modified brakes and the agreement with the Royal Mail was that up to four passenger coaches could be run in the formation with them. All ways worth a look is the 1030s classic film "Night Mail" which gives a good look at how it used to be done. Steve

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkLoDg7e_ns

Internal and external shots of a LNWR TPO can be seen in an old Wonder Book of trains I have. I think it dates from the WW1 era as it has a chapter about Railways in Time of War, but it is very vague about the details. It is certainly pre-grouping. There is also an external view of what I think is a GW clerestory TPO, posed with its arms and net extended and one of its crew hanging off the side and others leaning out of windows and a door.

[sub39h]

What are people able to tell me about the converted Mk1 brake coach directly behind 47569 in the photo linked below? I've seen a photo of it (or one like it) in Royal Mail red as well. (Photo is not mine - thanks to the contributor.)

 

http://thesulzerpictorial.weebly.com/uploads/8/2/1/2/8212554/_dpp_2566.jpg

 

Thanks