TPO and parcel trains

[luckymucklebackit]

What are people able to tell me about the converted Mk1 brake coach directly behind 47569 in the photo linked below? I've seen a photo of it (or one like it) in Royal Mail red as well. (Photo is not mine - thanks to the contributor.)

 

http://thesulzerpictorial.weebly.com/uploads/8/2/1/2/8212554/_dpp_2566.jpg

 

Thanks 

 

Description of this type of coach here http://www.nlr.org.uk/about-nlr/stock-list/coaches/br-mk-1-vxx-bullion-van-%E2%84%96889301/  BSK converted to a Bullion Van

 

Jim

[sub39h]

Thanks for your reply Jim.

 

Are you sure it's the same? The brake areas appear different and the one in the photo I linked doesn't appear to have roof pods.

 

Thanks

[ChrisH-UK]

Looks more like a courier vehicle to me 802xx series, I don't know how they were used specifically but I remember looking in the window of an unoccupied one and as far as I remember it was a standard compartment, unsure if the rest of the passenger area was gutted or the compartments used for whatever required the courier.

[hmrspaul]

I also think it is a Courier as http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brnpccs/e1e82dea8 Yes they did also come in red http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brnpccs/e98adfb8

 

The Bulliions had less windows http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brmark1/e23d0455d http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brmark1/e3ee05fa4

 

Paul

Edited February 5, 2016 by hmrspaul

[sub39h]

Thanks both. Hmm... So I wonder how they are used then.

 

Definitely an interesting project. May give it a go.

[Gwiwer]

It's an 802xx courier van ex BSK.  Not a bullion van - those as I recall had no windows for one thing and were very rarely out and about let alone in daylight for obvious reasons.  Their movements were as covert as the Royal Train.  The 802xx were converted with the intention that a courier (person) would be able to sit in the remaining compartment and accompany their packages which were either in the compartment with them or in the roller-shuttered area adjacent.  That was provide to allow pallet-loading though I never knew of this actually being done.

 

Their use was very restricted as the facility really didn't grab the courier firms who preferred the man-and-van operation from door to door.  In the end the 802xx became used randomly as guard's brakes on parcel workings.  Lucky guard if he got to travel in the compartment though he should have been riding in his own compartment with the emergency brake to hand.

 

Back briefly to TPO workings and the Penzance was never turned.  While formed of Mk1-style TPO vans some faced one way and some the other meaning nets could be deployed on either side of the train.  These vehicles all had central gangways and were coupled to a BG at either end.  In its latter days I recall the formation was 2BG-POT-POS-POS-POT-2BG.  I posted a few letters into the mailboxes on the vans.  That required an additional stamp.  Over the years (IIRC) 1/2d, 1d then 1p, then first class rate plus 1p.  I'm hoping to get a couple of TPO-franked ones back when my parents pass and I can go through their collection.

[bubbles2]

Here's a card I posted to myself from Penzance back in 1985 before we moved to Cornwall.

 

[/url]I posted what seamed like an appropriate card to myself in the post box shown in the previous picture. by mailrail, on Flickr">http://I posted what seamed like an appropriate card to myself in the post box shown in the previous picture. by mailrail, on Flickr

 

[/url]The front of the postcard shown in the previous picture, by mailrail, on Flickr">http://The front of the postcard shown in the previous picture, by mailrail, on Flickr

The train  heading towards the station from the sidings where it had spent the day.

 

[/url]The Penzance shunter brings the vans of the Paddington Postal from Long Rock towards Penzance station, 11 Sept 1985. by mailrail, on Flickr">http://The Penzance shunter brings the vans of the Paddington Postal from Long Rock towards Penzance station, 11 Sept 1985. by mailrail, on Flickr

 

 

 

And the post box.

 

[/url]Late posting box in the side of the Paddington Postal at Penzance station, 11 Sept 1985. by mailrail, on Flickr">http://Late posting box in the side of the Paddington Postal at Penzance station, 11 Sept 1985. by mailrail, on Flickr

 

Edited so you can see the pictures here rather than a link to my Flickr pics.

Edited February 6, 2016 by bubbles2

[robertcwp]

This is a bullion van:

 

Bullion-van_ManPicc by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

[G-BOAF]

Locomotive help:

With Mail trains running at night or in uncivilised hours, photos of mail workings are not exactly common.

 

What kinds of locomotives hauled TPOS on the regions during different eras? from the 1980s/1990s to the end 47s and 67s, while I have seen a number of pictures online of Warships working TOPs in the 1960s. 'Night Mail' tells us that Royal Scots were used during the early 1930s on the LMS.

 

But in steam days, particularly 1950s and '60s what locos did the regions use for their hub-to-hub working? Top link power or Mixed Traffic? A4s, Castles, Duchesses, MNs, or next rung down of Britannias, Halls, Jubilees, V2s,

 

I presume 'class 5'-ish locomotives were used for any 'portions' on their final leg.

 

Any data/pictures welcomed.

[GordonC]

Locomotive help:

With Mail trains running at night or in uncivilised hours, photos of mail workings are not exactly common.

 

What kinds of locomotives hauled TPOS on the regions during different eras? from the 1980s/1990s to the end 47s and 67s, while I have seen a number of pictures online of Warships working TOPs in the 1960s. 'Night Mail' tells us that Royal Scots were used during the early 1930s on the LMS.

 

But in steam days, particularly 1950s and '60s what locos did the regions use for their hub-to-hub working? Top link power or Mixed Traffic? A4s, Castles, Duchesses, MNs, or next rung down of Britannias, Halls, Jubilees, V2s,

 

I presume 'class 5'-ish locomotives were used for any 'portions' on their final leg.

 

Any data/pictures welcomed.

 

I've seen pictures of a variety of smaller locos than you'd expect. Class 27s on Aberdeen to Carstairs portions of the West Coast Postal and Class 31s on the Barrow to Huddersfield one. I haven't been looking so much at steam era pictures, but those might show similar examples of smaller locos too

[Gwiwer]

24s and 25s on shorter rakes / portions as well.  Reliability and punctuality were more critical than what was actually on the front.  So long as it was capable of and did the job.

[G-BOAF]

Thanks both.

any steam comments?

And what about the 'mainline' portions e.g. London-Bristol, London-Newcastle.

I'm surprised this hasn't been covered somewhere (here or elsewhere online - I'm sure its is burried in books somewhere)

[The Stationmaster]

24s and 25s on shorter rakes / portions as well.  Reliability and punctuality were more critical than what was actually on the front.  So long as it was capable of and did the job.

 

Ah ha - which explains why the Barrow TPO used to run with a Co-Bo every evening at one time when they were all at Barrow   (and it ran punctually).  Equally amusing (to some of us) is that one of the very first D6XX diagrams on the Western included working the Up Penzance Postal  (the first train I ever saw being worked by a mainline diese, with a rather new D601 at the head).

 

All the TPO trains were Post Office Controlled Trains according to the terms of the Letter Mail contract thus the railway was obliged to do its level best to run them on time and could get into serious trouble with the Post Office if it didn't.  Amusingly, and very unusually, the contract also included a BR motor vehicle operated service, from Barnstaple to Lynton (which implies there must at one time have been a PO Controlled Train on the L&B). 

 

Steam days most of the longer distance tarins were worked by larger engines for the simple rerasoin that they were needed to shift the load in the timings allowed although it's interesting to watch 'Night Mail' and see some of the engines on mail trains in that.

[AberdeenBill]

Warships (class 42s) were used on Waterloo to Weymouth TPOs in the late 1960s but pictures seem to be scarce... 

 

Bill

[TheSignalEngineer]

All the TPO trains were Post Office Controlled Trains according to the terms of the Letter Mail contract thus the railway was obliged to do its level best to run them on time and could get into serious trouble with the Post Office if it didn't.  . 

 

I was once called to an internal inquiry into the Down West Coast Postal being delayed when the signalman had set a conflicting route and had to wait for the approach locking to time out before he could do anything else. By the time the locking had released the Postal was at a stand. 

[tomo6368]

What are people able to tell me about the converted Mk1 brake coach directly behind 47569 in the photo linked below? I've seen a photo of it (or one like it) in Royal Mail red as well. (Photo is not mine - thanks to the contributor.)

 

http://thesulzerpictorial.weebly.com/uploads/8/2/1/2/8212554/_dpp_2566.jpg

 

Thanks

[tomo6368]

They were converted around the late 80’s one compartment was left as it was for a postman to travel with the train the shutter doors may have been for the York containers that Royal Mail use to roll in via a ramp, or more than likely just throw the bags in through this door. I use to load one of these tpo trains at Coventry all I can remember was the postman was from birmingham and travelled with the train to Euston and sorted the bags on route

[KeithMacdonald]

On 21/09/2011 at 23:35, DerekEm8 said:

I saw a copy of the the old BR/TPO Network diagram some years ago wich showed all the railway 'hubs' and all the TPO interconnections radiating from them

 

Was it this?

 

http://www.tpo-seapost.org.uk/tpo2/pdf/tpogbnetwork1958.pdf

 

[73c]

It's a very 'straight lined ' diagram of all the TPO workings in 1958. If you look at some of the stations, your see which one's terminated and which continued thro' .

For example, the Midland TPO departs Newcastle - York - Sheffield - Derby - Tamworth - Birmingham - Gloucester - ( terminates at ) Bristol.

The little circles with a number inside it, has either a 'Hook' or 'Arm' or both indicating pick-up or drop off points on route.

It includes some of the names, the Up/Down Special ( Night Mail fame ), Great Western TPO, East Anglian TPO.

[BillyBoyTheBig]

Hi.  I'm new to this forum and got here because of an interest in TPOs.  Regarding the turning round of the TPOs on the LM at the London end of things, this was done as follows:  two Class 25s were normally used to turn the TPO rake, one coupled at either end.  The train would come from Euston early morning and stop at Brent sidings.  Then it would reverse up the freight line towards Kensal Green on the North London Line (the line that first passes behind the BOC unloading facility at Willesden and then alongside Willesden Low Level station on the Watford DC lines).  Once clear of the points at Kensal Rise, the train would then back move up and through the Willesden high level station and take the branch off the Richmond side of the high level bridges over Willesden Junction and onto the West London line.  Once clear of the level crossing by Mitre Bridge, the TPO would then reverse again back onto the freight lines that first curve back towards to the LM main line at Willesden and then run alongside (the now defunct) Freightliner terminal, then use the fly-under, under the main lines at Brent sidings and back up on the far side alongside the Stonebridge Park carriage sidings.  On occasions, this whole process would be done in reverse.  I definitely saw the whole process work in both directions/circuits but have no idea which was the more usual/normal.  Either way, I guess a lot of work was involved but it achieved the aim of getting the stock with the doors all on the correct side again.  The procedure took place mid-morning and I do not remember seeing it occur later than about 11.00 a.m.  I have a picture somewhere of a TPO train reversing at Mitre Bridge Junction and if I can find it I will post it here.

[steve fay]

For the West of England TPO circa 1960/63 

would all the Mk1 TPO stock be Royal Mail red or was some maroon with RM branding? 

Edited December 24, 2022 by steve fay

[rab]

On 24/12/2022 at 13:01, steve fay said:

For the West of England TPO circa 1960/63 

would all the Mk1 TPO stock be Royal Mail red or was some maroon with RM branding? 

Just found this post which is a question I was going to ask, particularly with reference to the siphons.

Seems it wasn't answered at the time; does anyone know the answer please

[steve fay]

3 hours ago, rab said:

Just found this post which is a question I was going to ask, particularly with reference to the siphons.

Seems it wasn't answered at the time; does anyone know the answer please

Siphons would be Maroon or possibly crimson

the MK1 TPO would all be in Red as built. 

Edited June 2, 2023 by steve fay

[The Stationmaster]

17 hours ago, rab said:

Just found this post which is a question I was going to ask, particularly with reference to the siphons.

Seems it wasn't answered at the time; does anyone know the answer please

AFAIK the only vehocles tp carry Royal Mail branding were Post Office vehicles, so no railway v company general use vehocles would be branded Royal Mail.

 

In just the same way that quite a number of trains were officially contracted with the GPO as 'Post Office Controlled Trains' (plus one specific lorry route) but d that didn't mean that the train would include any Royal Mail branded vehicles.

[bécasse]

Some Southern electric MLVs were repainted into Royal Mail colours complete with appropriate branding once they were no longer required for boat train duties. The programme was soon stopped when it dawned on someone that one might just as well have painted "WORTH ROBBING" on the side of them although they continued the same duties with a rather more anonymous paint scheme.