Wigan Model Railway Exhibition

[roundhouse]

I will be visiting the Wigan show from Surrey so the £10 entry will be a fraction of our costs to get there. It's a very good show so well worth visiting whilst combining both the show and visits to good pubs in the North West.

 

Ian

[BigAndy]

I think Andy Cooper has just made quite an important observation and valid point.

 

Since the year dot, it has been the culture to reimburse exhibitors for bringing their layout to your show. As Andy says, the exorbitant cost of petrol is having a major impact on organisers' budget for shows.

It is a fantastically delicate balancing act ( which is why I noted being dissapointed at the lack of diesel era layouts ) and to put on a show that will attract people, with layouts that havn't been seen before is becoming an ever more increasingly thankless task.

 

Years ago, layout exhibitors would be happy to be put up in a cheap B+B if they were coming from some distance away and have their petrol/van hire given back as expenses.

Unfortutantely, the cheap B+B's have all but gone from most towns and even the most reasonable places ( like a premier inn ) charge top rate at weekends, when Model Railway exhibitions are put on - this all has a massive impact on the budget for bringing layouts in.

 

When we were taking Leamside around the country, we would do what we could to try and help the host club, by keeping the costs down. We had a code of conduct amongst ourselves that we adhered to, one of which was that we wouldn't require overnight accomodation if the venue could be travelled to within an hours drive, therefore knocking that particularly nasty little overhead from the organisers.

As we got older ( We were in our 20's when we built the thing! ) it became harder for us to be getting up at 6 or 7 on a Saturday and Sunday morning, put a full day in at a show and then move the layout back to the clubrooms, sometimes not getting home until gone midnight on the Sunday night.

 

So, to ease that and make life easier for us, we started paying for our own overnight accomodation, if it was a show that we would ordinarily have travelled each day to. There was no way that we would ask the host club for anything back, in fact, even with shows in the South or the far North where we had no choice but to stay over, quite often we would be out of pocket ourselves with regrad to petrol and van expenses, as we wanted to keep the costs down to an absolute bare minimum to help the host show.

 

The philosophy being that we were there, not only to enjoy ourselves but to primarily draw customers into the show to see Leamside and therefore hopefully, make the host club a bit of money.

 

The whole point of this posting is to just say, that as Andy Cooper states, in these financially difficult times it maybe that exhibitors need to start realising that it may be unrealistic to fully recieve all their expenses back for a weekend away.

In other hobbies, such as Golf, people pay vast sums of money just for the priveledge of knocking a little ball around the countryside without any consideration that they will ever get reimbursed and do so in the full knowledge that it is their hobby and therefore expect to have to pay for their own choice of pastime pleasure.

I'm not saying that all exhibition organisers should expect all the exhibitors to turn up for nothing, but there has to be a happy medium and I personally think that in these financially difficult times, the exhibitors need to start helping the host club and not claiming all that they are necessarily entitled to.

 

No doubt this will be seen as the thin end of the wedge by some, but we are all on the same side at the end of the day and Railway Modelling must be the winner, not any one individual. If something isn't done by exhibitors we could be rapidly approaching a meltdown, where the layout building is not matching the demand from exhibitions, therefore people will not part with their hard earned to go and see a show with the same old layouts which in turn will finish an exhibition ( You only need one bad year as reputations are built over generations but can be destroyed with one dodgy show ) and unltimately the hobby of model railways will be the loser as a lot of shows will go to the wall.

 

It's very similar to most ecology's and financial economies - everybody relies on everybody else, but once the pendulum of balance is swung vastly in one direction, that will have a massively negative effect elsewhere.

I'm not saying that we are at meltdown now or that the pendulum has swung, but it may just need a bit of thinking about from exhibitors as to the way forward in the future so that we can all help each other.

 

I'm sure, as i have already said, that this years Wigan show will be the success it usually is.

Just as a quick aside, if anyone sees Steve Roberts or indeed Terry Robinson from Stafford ( plus there are many more like them ), these are the guys who selflessly give each weekend up and massive ammounts of time during the week as well, travelling to shows around the country looking for layouts that people will want to see at their various exhibitions - shake their hand and thank them for what they are doing.

 

Without these guys, you wouldn't have a quality show to attend at !

[Mike J]

We put on a show this year with 11 layouts and limited trade for an entrance fee of £3. Numbers through the door were slightly down on last year and due to rising costs the entrance fee may well have to go up to £3.50 next year. Small fry compared to Wigan which this year has 39 layouts and massive trade support for £10.

So, from those figures you could deduce that Wigan is, pro rata, slightly better value, and I wouldn't disagree.

What will be the ultimate decider for perceived value however, is the footfall, and I would be interested to find out if it is up, down or roughly the same as last year.

When initial costings were given for the attendance of The North of England Line at Wigan 2011, the cost of petrol was much lower and during the final costings process we found that we had underestimated by quite a long way, the fuel costs. Van hire has also risen.

This was accepted with good grace by the show organisers as I'm sure that this was the case for a lot of layouts.

With costs rising in all sectors I'm not surprised that the entrance fee has risen and totally understand why.

Apart from your own travel costs, you're getting a full days entertainment for a tenner. Not at all bad in my book.

[Mike J]

Big Andy makes several valid points. One point on which the North of England Line and Haymarket Cross teams agree is the "one hours travel" rule. We only ask for accommodation if we have to travel for more than an hour to get to an exhibition. Unfortunately, due to Scarboroughs geographical location this is more often than not. Then we have some members who will have another 45 minutes travel after packing the layout away.

It goes without saying that we all try to keep costs to a minimum and NEVER make a profit on visiting an exhibition. In fact, we always make a slight loss...............but we always have a great time!!!!

[Jol Wilkinson]

At the end of the day you pay your money and you take your chances! I think "free" programmes are a misnomer - we looked at this a few years ago as a "tempter" to get people in but decided against it. It would have cost us very little to do that (advertising revenue takes up the bulk of production costs even of a nice full colour glossy programme) but decided against it for the very reasons Pennine states, people want the choice, and theres always that view of its a rip off. One of the concerns we had was someone going up to the door staff and saying , "no i dont want a programme I want to pay a pound less". Hence what seemed a good idea at the time we dropped like a stone.

 

I disagree and consider that a show guide should be part of the admission price of any show. This is especially applicable to larger shows where a plan of campaign to ensure that you get to see what interest you.

 

If you feel uncomfortable about supplying the full programme, then perhaps a simple show plan and exhibitors list should be part of the admission price.

 

As for those that want to save a pound on the admission price, then there is probably nothing that you can do to ensure that they will enjoy your exhibition, other than giving them free admission and lunch

 

I tend to look at the admission price for shows and discount those that are "cheap" as I find that usually don't have the layouts and traders that interest me. A couple of pounds on the entry price will only be a very small part of the total day's costs (excluding kit/material purchases). I suppose those that whinge about it are so fixated on price that quality doesn't really matter.

 

Wigan is definitely a "must" for me, as is Railex, S4um, ExpoEM and Watford. There are other great shows, but I think that six or so each year is enough for me, so it's important to go to one that will meet my buying needs and provide modelling inspiration.

 

Jol

[davefrk]

Hi, Big Andy does make some valid points but.... The analogy with Golf as a hobby doesn't wash, yes the golfer spends a lot of money on golf club fees and equipment, as we do, but they do it for themselves and not to entertain the crowds. When we take a layout to a show and I've been doing this with various clubs over the last 35 years, we put in the expenses to cover our 'out of pocket' expenses for that weekend. We are 'there' for what amounts to three or four days by the time we pack the van (twice) set up the layout, run the layout for the entertainment of the paying public then get home probably very late Sunday night or Monday morning and be totally knacked for the next few days, not forgetting a possible lost day's pay from work. Yes for the most part it was enjoyable but what about all the extra nights at the club preparing the layout so it performs up to the standard expected by the paying public not forgetting the petrol cost of going to the club on these extra nights, that is out of our pockets too. So I'm sorry but exhibitors shouldn't be out of pocket for the actual show, not making a profit, just breaking even for the weekend, we've already paid out a huge amount to build the layout in the first place.

We don't need to exhibit our layouts but other people want to see them and they should be willing to pay the going rate for that privilege.

As for Football, the average 90 minute game must be about £20 now and for top league much more so why complain about £10 for a whole days entertainment. How much for other types of shows these days, classic car shows, music gigs, theatre even the picture house.

Please be realistic and try to imagine what goes on in the few days before and after the show. There is a lot of hard work goes into a show from a lot of people before you even step through the door. (speaking generally).

 

Five of us will be doing the 450mile round trip to the Wigan show just for the fun of it, some of the layouts we won't be spending much time at, not our bag but others we will travel to see again and again. No Names....

 

Dave Franks.

[roundhouse]

Following on from Big Andys comments, we follow a similar rule.

 

We do a few shows a year which are a considerable distance and often we pay for the accommodation on the way to these shows if we cant make it after work thus making the early morning not quite so early a start and / or the accommodation on the way back again. However whilst I may be able to afford to take on such costs I do have to make sure my operators are also able to do this.

We did take a layout to Wigan show a few years ago and we did exactly this, only charging for one night. We also try to make use of friends in the North West when heading any distance North of Lodon, to top up for operators meaning we keep the fuel costs down aswell.

 

However in doing many shows with different layouts in a year,we cant always swallow the costs.

 

Ian

[Eaton]

Exhibitors and layout builders are fundimental to every railway exhibition. Simply put, without them you have no show. That being the case, if you wish them to except your invitation you must be prepared to look after them and to meet their expenses. If they are left with the impression that their well being is being seen as a factor that can be adjusted by the need to make a profit then there may be something wrong with the host clubs priorities. To a large extent layout costs can be predicted before the exhibition opens as are the trade stand rentals, it is only the visitor numbers that are likely to vary. The prudent Exhibition Manager will base his budget on the least number of visitors that he could predict based upon previous years experience. This budget would highlight any potential discrepancies between income and expenditure. It is then a question of how you bridge that gap. This is possible by hoping for an increase on the door, increasing the number of trade stands or their rental, or finding other revenue such as sponsorship, or increasing the cost of admission. It seemed to us that the increased costs involved in bringing layouts to Wigan could most easily be met by either reducing the number of layouts or increasing the door admission. In the end we did neither, what we did was to include the cost of the guidebook in the admission charge, so in fact any extra revenue is the profit on the extra guidebooks 'sold'.

We do not wish to be in a position whereby the very best layouts refuse to come to Wigan. We are only too aware that the thought of coming to Wigan in December is not on a par with visiting Paris in the springtime. Therefore our guest layouts are very important to us. We are also very aware of layouts such as those operated by Big Andy and Roundhouse (and indeed many others) who appreciate the need to control their expenses, and it is this self control that demonstrates what is one of the most gratifying aspects of this hobby. We also exhibit and would expect our out of pocket expenses to be covered but what we see as important is that we have had pleasent weekend.

As to Guidebooks being included in the price, well we are on something of a crusade here. We see them as very important to the visitors enjoyment and appreciation of what they are looking at. How many comments have you seen on here along the lines of 'visited the exhibition this morning and there was this great L & Y layout but I've forgotten its name' or 'watched this layout for 5 minutes and only saw two trains'. Firstly if you had a Guidebook to hand you would be able to find the unrememberd name and secondly the same guidebook would have informed you that this layout is a backwater branchline with a spartan service that contains some fantastic scratchbuilt buildings that are every bit as worthy of your attention as the rolling stock. Also the guidebook carries advertisements and to advertisers the more copies that are in circulation the more effective are their adverts. It also contains the Floor Plans of the 3 Halls so you can make the most of the time you have in the exhibition and easily find the exhibits that interest you the most. To us it seems

to make sense to include them in the price. But with any new inititive, until you try it you just never know if it will be successful.

[PLD]

I disagree and consider that a show guide should be part of the admission price of any show. This is especially applicable to larger shows where a plan of campaign to ensure that you get to see what interest you.

What about those groups travelling together who would typlically but one guide between them?? by rolling it in to the admission price (it's not "free" you are paying for it...) you are forcing them to buy one each...

 

[Wigan this year is still £8 Admission + £2 for a guide, same as last year except this time you don't have the option to not buy the guide]

 

Paul

[Eaton]

What about those groups travelling together who would typlically but one guide between them?? by rolling it in to the admission price (it's not "free" you are paying for it...) you are forcing them to buy one each...

 

[Wigan this year is still £8 Admission + £2 for a guide, same as last year except this time you don't have the option to not buy the guide]

 

Paul

 

I think you are slightly missing the point which was that extra revenue needed to be generated to meet the extra cost of bringing 39 layouts to Wigan, so the door price had to go up. It is also true that the more layouts you bring the greater is your expenditure and therefore the extra revenue that needs to be generated. So an increase was always a reality. We believe a guidebook is very important, reading it over a cup of tea will ensure that you miss nothing. We have previously had visitors that have not only missed the occasional layout but also missed Hall 2. A lot of time is spent on its preparation and some layout builders have obviously spent time preparing an enlightening write up which they obviously feel should be read as an explanation of their layout. This way we have 'given' the guidebook, increased everyones understanding of what they are looking at and also generated the revenue. As one who always buys a guidebook, this seems to me to be a 'win , win situation.

 

I also have this mental picture of a large group of visitors standing at the barrier in front of Burntisland ( which has a particularly informative write up in the guidebook) all looking at the one guidebook they bought. Is it not more likely that some of them would not get chance to read the guidebook at all and therefore have missed the implications of Thomas Bouch's moving bridge.

[Pennine MC]

 

I think you are slightly missing the point which was that extra revenue needed to be generated to meet the extra cost of bringing 39 layouts to Wigan, so the door price had to go up. It is also true that the more layouts you bring the greater is your expenditure and therefore the extra revenue that needs to be generated. So an increase was always a reality.

 

Thanks for the explanation. I stand by my preference that I dont want a guide; I dont want to carry it, I dont want to have to keep digging out my glasses around the hall to read it, and I dont want to bring it home to add to the huge piles of hobby-related A4-size coloured paper that I already have I dont really like the exhortations that I must read it for its content, and if I miss out on anything by not having it, that's my lookout. If I want to learn about Mr Bouch's bridge, I'll Google it

 

But having raised it, it's not something I'd continue to make an issue of. That's because of the bigger picture that's coming into play here and in that regard, I'm greatly reassured by your defence of your policy of paying reasonable expenses to exhibitors. This idea of exhibitors digging even deeper into their own pockets comes up every so often and other than at small and/or charity shows, IMHO it's a non-starter.

 

No doubt this will be seen as the thin end of the wedge by some, but we are all on the same side at the end of the day and Railway Modelling must be the winner, not any one individual. If something isn't done by exhibitors we could be rapidly approaching a meltdown, where the layout building is not matching the demand from exhibitions, therefore people will not part with their hard earned to go and see a show with the same old layouts which in turn will finish an exhibition ( You only need one bad year as reputations are built over generations but can be destroyed with one dodgy show ) and unltimately the hobby of model railways will be the loser as a lot of shows will go to the wall.

 

I dont doubt your intentions Andy, but if exhibitors had to cover more of their own costs, I think that could also very easily lead to the situation you describe. Dave (Franks) has put my concerns better than I could have myself, I'd just add that not everybody who exhibits is necessarily able to fork out any more than they already are in even bringing into, and keeping the layout in, existence.

[Mac]

Eaton.

 

I've just bought an advance ticket as I plan a long weekend of it based in Manchester taking

in the NRM and some local museums(weather permitting).

 

I had planned to wait till the 2012 Show; but this years line-up of layouts is too good to miss.

Even if half of them are duds; it's still worth the money.

 

I've been following the thread with some interest, especially the issues concerning the admission price

and show guide.

 

To be honest with you, a couple of the comments smack of petty carping and jealousy, but I shouldn't

worry as they may to be attracting more viewers to the thread... good pre show publicity in the long run.

 

Your show organisers appear to be implementing some changes and deserve credit for having the balls

to try something different.

 

Between the cost of the journey and accommodation over three days, £9 for an advance ticket is the least

of my worries.

I'm looking forward to seeing what your show guide is like; as I believe a well produced guide is

a reminder of a how good the show was.

 

One question I'd like to ask re' the advance ticket...

 

My understanding is there's NO early entrance times(like at York) but do you know if there will be a

separate entrance/gate for advance ticket holders?

 

 

 

Please feel free to show this letter to your fellow club members and best of luck with the show.

 

 

Mac.

[beast66606]

Advance ticket holders have their own queue, guess who'll be looking after it ?

[Dzine]

Looking forward to meeting old and new friends at our layout design clinic. Beginner or advanced, whatever your interest I'll do my best to help with issues on either existing layouts or work up a new design and it's completely free!

 

Wishing everyone involved with the exhibition every success over the weekend.

Regards

Paul and Anne Lunn

[Sam - WFRM ADMIN]

Eaton.

 

I've just bought an advance ticket as I plan a long weekend of it based in Manchester taking

in the NRM and some local museums(weather permitting).

 

I had planned to wait till the 2012 Show; but this years line-up of layouts is too good to miss.

Even if half of them are duds; it's still worth the money.

 

I've been following the thread with some interest, especially the issues concerning the admission price

and show guide.

 

To be honest with you, a couple of the comments smack of petty carping and jealousy, but I shouldn't

worry as they may to be attracting more viewers to the thread... good pre show publicity in the long run.

 

Your show organisers appear to be implementing some changes and deserve credit for having the balls

to try something different.

 

Between the cost of the journey and accommodation over three days, £9 for an advance ticket is the least

of my worries.

I'm looking forward to seeing what your show guide is like; as I believe a well produced guide is

a reminder of a how good the show was.

 

One question I'd like to ask re' the advance ticket...

 

My understanding is there's NO early entrance times(like at York) but do you know if there will be a

separate entrance/gate for advance ticket holders?

 

 

 

Please feel free to show this letter to your fellow club members and best of luck with the show.

 

 

Mac.

 

With regard to your question about Advance Ticket holders gaining early entry to the show -

 

you do indeed gain entry earlier than the others who prefer to queue....... you will be able to gain admission to the show 15mins prior to the show opening, and yes there will also be a separate queue too,

 

Sam

[Mac]

Thanks for the info' Sam. My advance ticket arrived today.

 

Your exhibition must be one of last of the old style 'Xmas Shows' and it

will be interesting to see if there's a festive atmosphere ?

 

Now all I need is the long range weather forecast for the

weekend of Dec 10th.

 

Mac.

[Sam - WFRM ADMIN]

Thanks for the info' Sam. My advance ticket arrived today.

 

Your exhibition must be one of last of the old style 'Xmas Shows' and it

will be interesting to see if there's a festive atmosphere ?

 

Now all I need is the long range weather forecast for the

weekend of Dec 10th.

 

Mac.

 

Glad you received your ticket safely!!

 

We used to have a great Festive atmosphere, where all the exhibitors would bring christmas lights and tinsel, but then because of Health and Saftey

(something to do with overloading the power outputs for each stand, Eaton would have more info on this), we had to scale it back,

 

but i agree with you seeing as how this will be the end of an era for us, and the last Christmas show for us, we should make it very festive....... if only we could get around the H & S issue......

 

We should get everyone to be festive!!!! think i may even bring a small Christmas tree for our Info Stand...... what do you think???

[Mac]

We used to have a great Festive atmosphere, where all the exhibitors would bring christmas lights and tinsel, but then because of Health and Saftey

(something to do with overloading the power outputs for each stand, Eaton would have more info on this), we had to scale it back,

 

but i agree with you seeing as how this will be the end of an era for us, and the last Christmas show for us, we should make it very festive

We should get everyone to be festive!!!! think i may even bring a small Christmas tree for our Info Stand...... what do you think???

 

Sam.

 

I'm sure the organisers/exhibitors will do their best to put on a memorable show and that there will

be some form of Christmas 'buzz' about the place.

 

Mac.

[newbryford]

I'll be bringing some tinsel to the DEMU stand. Fireproof to satisfy H&S requirements naturally!

 

I'll be accompanied by my other woman..................

 

Cheers,

MIck

[Poggy1165]

I don't get to many shows these days, but I am seriously tempted by this one. The price is a bit high, but on the other hand the line up of layouts is wonderful and it will not be a case (as it often is) of going to the exhibition primarily to see one particular layout. I suppose it depends what you compare the price to. Against a local jumble sale or antiques fair it's dear - against a football match it's dirt cheap.

 

Any good chippies/pubs in the area? Years since I've been to Wigan.

[Sam - WFRM ADMIN]

I don't get to many shows these days, but I am seriously tempted by this one. The price is a bit high, but on the other hand the line up of layouts is wonderful and it will not be a case (as it often is) of going to the exhibition primarily to see one particular layout. I suppose it depends what you compare the price to. Against a local jumble sale or antiques fair it's dear - against a football match it's dirt cheap.

 

Any good chippies/pubs in the area? Years since I've been to Wigan.

 

 

there is a pub on the corner that serves food from 11am till 11pm there is a Mcdonalds and a Burger King a few mins away too, there is also new for this year, a new 'visitors cafe area' situated in our old hall, which i am lead to believe will also have a bar, and will be serving hot food, in addition to the cafe life bar, that will be serving hot food and snacks.

 

If you want to save money on tickets get an Advance Ticket as you save on the entry price and also gain entry to the show 15 mins before the show opens to the public..... the Special offer ticket will end on the 27th November so if you have a few friends that is a bargain, alternatively, the single ticket will be available to buy until 2nd Dec only when bought online, (no postal orders will be processed after the 30th Nov, due to us being unable to guarantee delivery before the exhibition.)

[Mac]

I don't get to many shows these days, but I am seriously tempted by this one. The price is a bit high, but on the other hand the line up of layouts is wonderful and it will not be a case (as it often is) of going to the exhibition primarily to see one particular layout. I suppose it depends what you compare the price to. Against a local jumble sale or antiques fair it's dear - against a football match it's dirt cheap.

 

Poggy.

 

Re' you comment about the line up of layouts.

 

I just posted this Link on another thread but you may also find it useful.

It shows one of the layouts appearing at Wigan.

 

http://www.burntisland.net/Burntisland-1883/Thumbnails.html

 

Mac.

[Jon Fitness]

 

 

there is a pub on the corner

Tell us more.........

Jon F.

[lmsforever]

Hope all goes well I came up to your show a couple of years ago and enjoyd every minute,well worth a long trip on Mr Bransons train set will have try and get to next years .

[Mac]

Poggy.

 

Re' pubs in the area.

 

There's a Wetherspoons called 'The Brocket Arms', but I'm not sure how close it is to the venue.

 

The pub on the corner that serves food from 11am that Sam mentioned might be worth checking

out.

Does anyone know more information about it ?

 

Mac.