Judith Edge kits

[Michael Edge]

That's not hijacking Peter, thanks for your input. I've drawn something similar but with only one bracket - 4mm often requires  a lot more sideways movement than 7mm. The brake shaft bracket is an extension of the knife edge rocker for the trailing axle which locates in one of the spacers, it can still be fitted even if the compensation system isn't. Your photo has reminded me that the brake cross beams need altering as well for the double pull rods.

I'm part way through the corrections, hope to have the production films ready to go to the etchers next week, along with the Sentinel 0-8-0DH test etch.

[Gordon A]

The Sentinel is on the move!

The possibility of an expensive S4 North?

 

Gordon A

[Michael Edge]

Not that quick! Feel free to spend plenty of money though.....

[innocentman]

Way back in June 2018, I posted couple of picture of my progress to date on a Judith Edge Fowler 3P 2-6-2t. The progress at that time was punching out all the rivets in the tank sides for 40061 . Thinks went a little quiet after that but I finally went back to work on this project at the end last year and have nearly finished her so I thought now might be a good time for some more piccies.

 

40061 in BR days was a pull/push fitted engine with the original cylinders. Pull push gear has been 3D printed on my Anycubic Photon

 

 

A few extra bits have been added to the front and rear for the Pull push control. if the smokebox door looks a little wonky, that's because its held in with bluetac for the purpose of these pictures. (Mr Edge is going to try and take a moulding from it when I get it across to him)

 

 

I have really enjoyed building this semi kit, in fact I'm going to order another one, this time to be built to EM gauge. (I decided last year that I fancied a change from 00 on future projects). The next one might not have riveted tanks!

 

I have to say thanks to Mike for his help and advice when I needed some guidance.

 

There are few little bits to do but hopefully she will be in and out of the paint shop soon for inclusion in the Herculaneum Dock roster at Bristol show at the end of April

 

All the best

 

Andy

Edited February 23, 2020 by innocentman
typo

[Daddyman]

8 hours ago, innocentman said:

Way back in June 2018, I posted couple of picture of my progress to date on a Judith Edge Fowler 3P 2-6-2t. The progress at that time was punching out all the rivets in the tank sides for 40061 .

 

All the best

 

Andy

You've done a very good job on those rivets (and everything else). What did you use to punch them? 

[innocentman]

2 hours ago, Daddyman said:

You've done a very good job on those rivets (and everything else). What did you use to punch them? 

Hi Daddyman,

 

I used my trusty Midland Railway Centre riveting tool.

 

http://www.midrailcentre.com/rivet-embossing-tool

 

Andy

[Daddyman]

10 hours ago, innocentman said:

Hi Daddyman,

 

I used my trusty Midland Railway Centre riveting tool.

 

http://www.midrailcentre.com/rivet-embossing-tool

 

Andy

Thanks for your reply. Never heard of those. Have I understood correctly that those tools don't have indexing? 

David. 

[innocentman]

10 minutes ago, Daddyman said:

Thanks for your reply. Never heard of those. Have I understood correctly that those tools don't have indexing? 

David. 

Hi David, 

 

you are correct, they don’t have indexing. It does have a fence to enable straight lines to be produced. That’s not a problem in this particular loco as Mike has kindly half etched the rivets into the kit.

 

Regards 

 

Andy

[Daddyman]

10 hours ago, innocentman said:

Hi David, 

 

you are correct, they don’t have indexing. It does have a fence to enable straight lines to be produced. That’s not a problem in this particular loco as Mike has kindly half etched the rivets into the kit.

 

Regards 

 

Andy

Thanks, Andy. I might invest in one of these as it looks like it has a number of advantages over the GW one I currently have which, although it has indexing, that feature is pretty useless as it wanders off line. Yours also allows you to get in and see what you're doing, and that combined with careful marking out might mean there's no need for indexing anyway. 

Edited February 24, 2020 by Daddyman

[Michael Edge]

I use what looks like an earlier version of the same riveting tool. I do have a GW indexing one as well but I find it slower to use (because it's hard to see what I'm doing in it) and the indexing isn't needed for etched rivet marks. The GW one is usually set up for 7mm - and it's a real pain to change tools in it, the anvil fits in an oval hole and needs very careful re-setting each time (moves off centre as soon as you tighten the nut!).

[Daddyman]

11 hours ago, Michael Edge said:

I use what looks like an earlier version of the same riveting tool. I do have a GW indexing one as well but I find it slower to use (because it's hard to see what I'm doing in it) and the indexing isn't needed for etched rivet marks. The GW one is usually set up for 7mm - and it's a real pain to change tools in it, the anvil fits in an oval hole and needs very careful re-setting each time (moves off centre as soon as you tighten the nut!).

Thanks, Mike. I know what you mean about it being difficult to see with the GW one. Do you also have problems with it wandering off line on the indexing setting? Or maybe you never use it that way? There was an allusion to "improving" the tool in the latest Snooze, but no details on what was done. I think I've worked out why it wanders... 

Edited February 25, 2020 by Daddyman

[Michael Edge]

I don't get a problem with it wandering off and yes I do use it this way for some jobs. The clamp system for the metal needed some work first to round off the ends of the screws which were marking the job very badly. I think Mr. GW's idea is to punch all the rivets in the plate and then cut the parts out but mostly I'm using a paper pattern with all the rivets marked on (as small circles - not crosses). I tried explaining this to him once but I don't think he was really listening, he seemed to be thinking that if I didn't do it his way my work must be rubbish.....

The visibility problem is helped by shining a light under it but the problem changing anvils is just infuriating - and the clearance is just to small to change the punch without removing the anvil. The tools are very well engineered but not very well thought out, the same applies to the rolling bars which are geared together in such a way that they don't drive the metal through, you have to push it as you turn the handle. I have an old set of Cherry rolls which are geared differently and feed the metal through without any pushing.

[Pebbles]

I keep a piece of scrap about 15mm wide, that I know is fairly parallel over its length. The work piece is spot soldered to this. I have raised the issue as to why a depth spacing bar cannot be incorporated on the riveter so it can be used without the indexing facility.  I had much the same response.

[Down_Under]

3 hours ago, Michael Edge said:

 

The visibility problem is helped by shining a light under it but the problem changing anvils is just infuriating - and the clearance is just to small to change the punch without removing the anvil. The tools are very well engineered but not very well thought out, the same applies to the rolling bars which are geared together in such a way that they don't drive the metal through, you have to push it as you turn the handle. I have an old set of Cherry rolls which are geared differently and feed the metal through without any pushing.

 

Glad it was not just me that finds/found it hard to swap over the anvils and get them centred after. The only way I found was to really push down with some force and then very gradually tighten until the sweet spot between the anvil rotating out of centre and tight enough to hold it in place. 

 

Thanks for the heads up on the rolling machine - yet to try.....

[PenrithBeacon]

I have one of these devices and although I've only needed to use it the once I did find visibility of the workpiece to be an issue, a serious issue. Changing the anvils wasn't such a problem, I used the method described above by 'Down_Under'.

 

I agree with earlier posts about GW's social skills, the bloke isn't a communicator but it takes all sorts.

[Daddyman]

6 hours ago, Michael Edge said:

I don't get a problem with it wandering off and yes I do use it this way for some jobs. The clamp system for the metal needed some work first to round off the ends of the screws which were marking the job very badly. I think Mr. GW's idea is to punch all the rivets in the plate and then cut the parts out but mostly I'm using a paper pattern with all the rivets marked on (as small circles - not crosses). I tried explaining this to him once but I don't think he was really listening, he seemed to be thinking that if I didn't do it his way my work must be rubbish.....

The visibility problem is helped by shining a light under it but the problem changing anvils is just infuriating - and the clearance is just to small to change the punch without removing the anvil. The tools are very well engineered but not very well thought out, the same applies to the rolling bars which are geared together in such a way that they don't drive the metal through, you have to push it as you turn the handle. I have an old set of Cherry rolls which are geared differently and feed the metal through without any pushing.

Thanks Mike (and others). I've had similar conversations with GW where he has been in ... "switched to transmit" mode. Interesting what you say about the rollers too - didn't realise they were fundamentally flawed. I'd been blaming myself. The last time I saw GW at one of the Aylesbury shows I took my rollers along to ask him to demonstrate how to use them, but he consistently failed to roll anything round, and indeed had lots of un-round demonstration boilers on his stand. 

 

I'd respectfully disagree with you on your statement that the tools are well engineered, Mike. I don't know how much you can make out in this photo, but I'm holding a ruler against what I'll call the head unit (with the five bolts in it), which sits on a "shelf" which contains the X-Y adjusters. But as can perhaps be seen, the ruler, while hard up against the head unit, is not parallel to the edge of the "shelf"; obviously, this means X is not at right angles to Y, and explains why for years I've been unable to stamp lines of rivets that remain parallel to my edges. 

 

 

Edited February 26, 2020 by Daddyman

[Pebbles]

I'm far from happy about taking over Michael' s thread on discussing riveting tools. Daddyman  as I'm sure you appreciate the head unit- to use your term- is a sandwich and it is the centre part of this sandwich that you should be concerned with. There are two bolts holding the sandwich together and it is possible that by slacking these off you may be able to slightly  move the centre part and correct the problem you are experiencing. I hope that you find this suggestion helpful.

[Daddyman]

51 minutes ago, Pebbles said:

I'm far from happy about taking over Michael' s thread on discussing riveting tools. Daddyman  as I'm sure you appreciate the head unit- to use your term- is a sandwich and it is the centre part of this sandwich that you should be concerned with. There are two bolts holding the sandwich together and it is possible that by slacking these off you may be able to slightly  move the centre part and correct the problem you are experiencing. I hope that you find this suggestion helpful.

Thank you. That's indeed very helpful - I'll try this. And, yes, I should probably not hijack the thread any more. 

[Jub45565]

Whilst I agree with the sentiment that this is the Judith Edge Kits thread and should be focussed on produce available from them, I personally have found the hijack useful - and wouldn't mind learning more (either here or on a diversionary thread).  To date I have used the London Road gravity riveting tool, but have an upgrade on the radar at some point and had the GW version in mind.  Therefore learning from other peoples experiences in either which alternatives work better for them, or ways to improve the GW option, are invaluable.

 

This does relate to the tools and methods of making the most of Michael's kits, so isn't completely off topic in my opinion.

[t-b-g]

I think that you can either get lucky or unlucky with he GW rivetting tool. I had used one that a friend owned for some time and found it very nicely assembled and set up. When I purchased my own, I found it anything other than well assembled and getting a 90 degree turn from a horizontal to a vertical line of rivets was impossible.

 

I stripped it down and found that there was enough play in the holes drilled through the individual components to allow for it to be assembled out of square. The problem was the block into which the front to back cross slide was mounted. Once that put back together using flat plates and squares, the problem was solved.

 

I always soldered a bit of scrap to the edge of scratchbuilt parts and clamped that as I also found that the set screws would mark the surface.  That allowed me to often rivet a whole part without taking it out and turning it round. I never thought of cleaning up the ends of the screws but that will be happening next time it comes out for use.   

[Michael Edge]

Don't worry about hijacking - opinions and experiences are what this is all about.

It seems I was lucky with my riveting tool in that case. The rolling bars do work, it's just that they are more difficult to use than they might have been. I mostly use the Cherry ones but they are 5/8th diameter and 15" long, being intended for 7mm work - the GW ones are much smaller and I thought would be better for 4mm.

The Cherry one has two rollers geared together to rotate in opposite directions, the metal to be rolled runs between them and they can be clamped together to increase the drive pressure. The third bar is pressed against these to adjust the curve radius - all you have to do is turn the handle. the only modification I had to make was to split the bearing of the top bar at one end to enable a rolled boiler to be extracted.

The GW ones have two rollers geared together to run in the same direction, the metal goes across these and an adjustable roller presses down between them. The snag is that there is no pressure to drive the metal through.

This is the GW one, the top bar is the adjustable one but when it presses down on the material to be rolled there isn't enough pressure on the bottom rollers to drive it through and more pressure merely increases the friction and nothing happens. This system might well work in a full size rolling mill but scaled down like this it simply doesn't and you have to push the metal through (quite hard actually) as you turn the handle.

These are the rolling bars I bought from Ian Cherry about 25 years ago. The two rollers at the back are geared together and run in opposite directions, the screws on the top press the top bar down in an oval slot to adjust the drive pressure. The bar at the front is moved inwards by two more screws to change the radius of the roll. As it came there was no way of extracting a rolled boiler so at the right hand end I split the top bearing (the line is just visible) and added an extra screw to hold it together. It didn't come with a fancy handle but a tap wrench on the far end of the bottom back roller works fine.

[St Enodoc]

Didn't Nick make some rolling bars years ago or is my memory going down the drain?

[PenrithBeacon]

I've put 'rolling bars' into eBay and got all sorts of automotive garbage. Is there an alternative description which might be helpful?

[Pebbles]

On the basis that Michael has given the all clear, here is my home made riveter. Sorry about the rough welding.

[St Enodoc]

23 minutes ago, PenrithBeacon said:

I've put 'rolling bars' into eBay and got all sorts of automotive garbage. Is there an alternative description which might be helpful?

Try "sheet metal rollers" or "slip rollers". No idea if any of them are any good of course.