bogieman Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 I have a collection of watchmaker lathe parts and there seems to be enough to make up a workable and useful tool. But what I don't have is a motor. It has been suggested I use a Sherline of Unimat motor that comes with electronic gadgetry (for speed control) and foot switch but they are not easy to get and very expensive. Does anyone have a cheaper option suggestion. Something with the electronic control would also be nice. I'm not even sure what power motor to go for. Any helpful suggestions would be gratefully received, especially ones from practical experience! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortliner Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 I suggest a word with Bertiedog of this parish Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
richbrummitt Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 I've got a heinz 57 (which is mostly boley I think) powered by what I recall being from here: http://www.sew-europe.co.uk/c_motor.htm FM2900 part way down the right hand side of the page. It looks like it has gone up in price a bit from what I remember paying, or it was on special a few years back. Either way I don't think it's breaking the bank and it comes with the foot pedal. PS Do have a spare set of step collets/chucks or 4 jaw chuck? They're on my to be acquired soon list... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bogieman Posted September 28, 2011 Author Share Posted September 28, 2011 I've got a heinz 57 (which is mostly boley I think) powered by what I recall being from here: http://www.sew-europ....uk/c_motor.htm FM2900 part way down the right hand side of the page. It looks like it has gone up in price a bit from what I remember paying, or it was on special a few years back. Either way I don't think it's breaking the bank and it comes with the foot pedal. PS Do have a spare set of step collets/chucks or 4 jaw chuck? They're on my to be acquired soon list... That looks really cheap compared to nearly £300 for Sherline. Doesn't say what speed it does though. How much did you gear yours down? Is the foot pedal one that gives variable speed or just on/off? No I've not got a 4 jaw for it, if I needed that I think I'd use my Myford, I really only plan using it for small fittings. I have some step collets, doubt though they even make one set. I'll need to clean it all up and see what there, but the headstock has cleaned up really well. I guess mine will be a 57 too but seems to be mostly Lorch. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Donw Posted September 28, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 28, 2011 Interesting I have an EW which needs cleaning and setting up with a motor. I do have a motor but it seems far to big what sort of motor is needed for a small lathe. Don Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigelcliffe Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 Best person to get advice on this sort of thing is Peter Clark. Peter really knows his stuff on small lathes, mills and the like. Try the 2mm VAG on Yahoo! to reach him (I know he reads it). I'm not sure that sewing machine motors are the best option. They work, but I'm sure there must be better for not much more money. - Nigel Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
richbrummitt Posted September 29, 2011 Share Posted September 29, 2011 Doesn't say what speed it does though. How much did you gear yours down? Is the foot pedal one that gives variable speed or just on/off? My headstock has 5 sizes on the pully and it is fitted to the largest. The pedal I got was variable, just like a sewing machine one. Slow speeds can be attained and it goes plenty fast enough! I can have a look on the plate/sticker and measure the reduction later if you need a more accurate answer. I have some step collets, doubt though they even make one set. A full set is 5 collets. Best person to get advice on this sort of thing is Peter Clark. Peter really knows his stuff on small lathes, mills and the like. Try the 2mm VAG on Yahoo! to reach him (I know he reads it). I'm not sure that sewing machine motors are the best option. They work, but I'm sure there must be better for not much more money. - Nigel I acquired my lathe directly from Peter and he made the suggestion of a sewing machine motor. That may have been because I was working to a very modest budget, but it seemed he thought that it would be perfectly adequate. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertiedog Posted September 29, 2011 Share Posted September 29, 2011 If you want speed control, get a DC motor, a couple of hundred watts max rating wiil do, mine was surplus Pittman 24Volts DC, runs at about 5+ amps. Now finding one may be the worst part, I got mine at the Model engineer Exhibitions, surplus at £10 a pair! DC motors are fast and quiet, and reversible if required. Any 12 to 24 volt motor will do, a conventional brushed type, ex industrial if possible, ball raced etc. Ebay may be the best source, what;s available is pure chance. Some DC motors for window winders in cars are OK for small lathes where speed control is needed. It is best to run DC motors on a PWM power supply, more power at lower speeds. Any heavy duty circuit could be used, or beef up a simpler circuit with power output transistors piggy backed.(and on heat sinks). Sewing machine motors will work, and have variable speed foot controls, but the max speed is lower. They are not cheap, unless from a scrapped machine. You will need access to another lathe to make a selection of Pulleys and some heat fusing round belt for the drive belting. Stephen. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertiedog Posted September 29, 2011 Share Posted September 29, 2011 http://www.motioncontrolproducts.co.uk/products/8/25/zyt-90-199_12v_traction_motor_12_nm/ This link, (no connection) shows a typical new industrial DC traction motor, (two variants), these would happily power a small lathe and are easy to power from a beefy 12 VDC controller. Scrap yard might supply a wheel chair or motor scooter motor very cheap, or the motors from power bikes. Stephen Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bogieman Posted September 29, 2011 Author Share Posted September 29, 2011 If you want speed control, get a DC motor, a couple of hundred watts max rating wiil do, mine was surplus Pittman 24Volts DC, runs at about 5+ amps. Now finding one may be the worst part, I got mine at the Model engineer Exhibitions, surplus at £10 a pair! DC motors are fast and quiet, and reversible if required. Any 12 to 24 volt motor will do, a conventional brushed type, ex industrial if possible, ball raced etc. Ebay may be the best source, what;s available is pure chance. Some DC motors for window winders in cars are OK for small lathes where speed control is needed. It is best to run DC motors on a PWM power supply, more power at lower speeds. Any heavy duty circuit could be used, or beef up a simpler circuit with power output transistors piggy backed.(and on heat sinks). Sewing machine motors will work, and have variable speed foot controls, but the max speed is lower. They are not cheap, unless from a scrapped machine. You will need access to another lathe to make a selection of Pulleys and some heat fusing round belt for the drive belting. Stephen. Thanks everyone for the information. So to summarise I need to look for a DC brushed motor (any sort of speed?), no more than 200W, with b/r bearings and control it with a PWM power supply (which is what exactly? sorry for ignorance) and where do I get that. I have a Myford to make the pulleys so something is not a problem! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Natalie Graham Posted September 29, 2011 Share Posted September 29, 2011 Keep an eye on ebay. I got a smashing little lathe motor with foot control for less than a tenner. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertiedog Posted September 29, 2011 Share Posted September 29, 2011 The speed is not like an AC motors, with no load any DC motor will race away to several thousand RPM, so rely on the applied voltage to control them, the load causing a change in current, or a drop in speed. The controllers are beefed up model railway types basically, and are made for robotics etc or build you own, simple types with Pulse Width Modulation are best a 0volt to 24 volts would cover both a 24 volts motor and 12 volts as well. The current requirement must be matched between the motor and P/S, or exceed the rating of the motor, or the controller overheats. There are hundreds of home designs on the net, and plenty of commercial DC PWM controllers on Ebay etc. You will need the mains transformer to supply them, or float on a car battery with a battery charger, which will deliver all the power you will ever need. Added up this is only cheap if the motor is a surplus one, a good 1750 rev single phase AC can be bought cheaper, but no speed control and maybe no reverse(most capacitor start AC motors do reverse with switched wiring). A DC option is more refined, 0 to Max speed for the pulley combination, and is quieter. The latest Chinese Seig Lathe comes with a large coreless DC motor, very sophisticated approach, but expensive. Stephen. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertiedog Posted September 29, 2011 Share Posted September 29, 2011 And by the way, most powered classic watchmakers lathes are on a stand with the motor in a cabinet underneath, and any big motor can be used, the lathe countershaft is driven by a long length flat or V belt from the floor mounted motor. Almost any motor will do in this layout. If you have no countershaft running behind the watchmakers lathe, then add one!!! You can knock it up in the Myford, 10mm shaft in ball races running entire length of lathe, pulleys at the driving end to the lathe, the driving pulley from the motor on to the other end. Boley, Pultra, Lorch and Schaublin all arranged watchmakers lathes like this. An old sewing machine stand can be used or a steel cabinet, or make a wooden cabinet, well battened MDF will work. Stephen. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bogieman Posted September 30, 2011 Author Share Posted September 30, 2011 A full set is 5 collets. I seem to have just one full set labelled 1-5. But they all look alike so what the difference in each one? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bogieman Posted September 30, 2011 Author Share Posted September 30, 2011 Is there a book that tell you what all the little gadgets that go with a watchmakers lathe do? Collets, 3jaw and 4jaw chuck no worries,, but what about some of the other things? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertiedog Posted September 30, 2011 Share Posted September 30, 2011 Most special parts for a Geneva Watchmakers lathes are dedicated to handling shafts and gears, and producing tapers and pivots with great accuracy. The rest is normal to any lathe. A Collet set that are all the same are likely to be soft blanks for making a particular very exact sized collet. Don't forget it is common on watchmakers outfits to have pairs, to hold between centres for sizing an fitting gears. Collets fit a drawbar through the headstock, and have a buttress thread to take the pull. Most smaller parts including wheels can be done on a Watchmakers lathe, but do not expect to do parting off of steel etc, or deep cuts. There's plenty on the net, mainly US based on watchmaking lathes. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertiedog Posted September 30, 2011 Share Posted September 30, 2011 To check we are talking about the same type, Typical model, supported at head stock, some have tailstock support Try"The Watchmakers Lathe" book, on Amazon and Ebay. Makers never did handbooks, they expected the user to learn themselves as apprentices. A "full set" of collets may be over a hundred to a set, and dualed in metric and imperial, mine has 36 in each. there will be bell collets, and expanding collets as well. Bell grip over toothed gears. Major component is the face plate with three/four adjustable jaws with grip tips to hold large gears or large thin disks These lathes are also popular with pen makers and lace bobbin makers. Stephen. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
richbrummitt Posted September 30, 2011 Share Posted September 30, 2011 A full set is 5 collets. I seem to have just one full set labelled 1-5. But they all look alike so what the difference in each one? Each ring is 1mm larger than the last. The collets increase in size by 0.2mm, I don't know what they start at but lets assume it's 1.0mm. The smallest size ring on number 1 is 1.0mm, the smallest on number 2 is 1.2mm, then 1.4mm, 1.6mm, 1.8mm on numbers 3 through 5 respectively and then it's back to the next smallest ring on number 1 collet for 2.0mm and so on. They are very useful for holding thin discs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertiedog Posted September 30, 2011 Share Posted September 30, 2011 Conventional collets Bell Step collets for discs and gears, they will grip wheels if deep enough steps. Stephen. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertiedog Posted September 30, 2011 Share Posted September 30, 2011 Plain disks in the collet set are wax chucks, they are faced, then the work is glue to them with shellac, sealing wax, or superglue, holds flat objects to perfection. Some are steel collets, with a screwed outer end, for adding a screwed blank in bronze, then facing or diameter machined to size, and then object glued on for machining. The other attachment unique to watchmaking is Jacot pivot tooling, between centre drilling and burnishing of pivots, these can be a dedicated frame, or an addition or conversion to the lathe. The work is rotated with a horsehair bow backwards and forwards in the frame, the pivot running against grooves, or cones etc. Stephen. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertiedog Posted September 30, 2011 Share Posted September 30, 2011 Is there a book that tell you what all the little gadgets that go with a watchmakers lathe do? Collets, 3jaw and 4jaw chuck no worries,, but what about some of the other things? Apart from the book mentioned, I have looked around the net on this subject and there are plenty of sites and blogs, mainly US based. In the UK there are a couple dedicated to Cowells watchmaking lathe, which is more conventional tool makers type. Some US sites selling Burgeon make equipment have descriptions of the more obscure items. Mainly have to be demonstrated to gather the knack needed to get the best from them, Do not forget, Clock and watchmaking standards are extremely high precision, and it is the operators skill, not just the machine that gives the standards, and it only comes from using and experiencing the lot! Stephen. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bogieman Posted September 30, 2011 Author Share Posted September 30, 2011 Thank you so very much for all that information especially the photos. I will copy and paste most of it into a sheet for reference. I'm not a total beginner as I have a Myford Super 7 with collets that I have used for over 40 years although I have no engineering training. But from all the bits that I now have I can probably assemble about 4 or maybe even 5 watchmakers lathes like the one you sent picture of. I'd think 2 are 6mm and two are 8mm haven't found the headstock for the fifth yet. I doubt from it all though I'll have a complete set of collets, even of the 6mm variety that are the most numerous. Interestedly there's only one motor a DC 12v job of only 20watts so getting motors is going to be a first job after sorting everything out and deciding which one to keep. They are all F Lorch or Lorch Schmidt but a few items are marked Boley. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bogieman Posted October 1, 2011 Author Share Posted October 1, 2011 The book you mentioned "The Watchmakers Lathe" is that "The Watchmakers and Model Engineers Lathe - A User's Manual" by Donald de Carle? Only the Amazon reviews say its mainly a catalogue of lathes (itself useful) but thin on instruction. There is a book called "The Modern Watchmakers Lathe and How to Use It" by Archie Perkins but it seems very expensive. Do you know that one? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertiedog Posted October 1, 2011 Share Posted October 1, 2011 I have not read the books so can't help. but actual instructions are always sparse, the net will provide more, as will The Lathe reference site. Clockmaking is taught, not self learnt, and the lathes are very specialist, but only when used for such work. Other tan that they behave like any small toolroom lathe. Stephen. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krusty Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 The book you mentioned "The Watchmakers Lathe" is that "The Watchmakers and Model Engineers Lathe - A User's Manual" by Donald de Carle? A watchmaker friend always used to recount how Donald de Carle's books were the subject of much derision amongst the oiks when he was doing his apprenticeship. He reckoned that whenever de Carle came to anything at all difficult or involved, he'd quietly skip over it. I bought a couple of secondhand de Carle books when I was teaching myself metalworking, but didn't find them hugely useful. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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