Weekday Cross Posted October 9, 2011 Share Posted October 9, 2011 Following the huge amount of fun I had building my Liverpool Lime Street loco shed diorama, I have been thinking hard about what to do next. I caught a bad cold this last week, which made it temporarily impossible for me to do some aspects of my job, so I put the unexpected free time to good use! So, after weighing up a few options, I have decided that my next piece of work in 2mm scale will be a small diorama that can easily be extended in either direction to make a bigger layout in the future. It is broadly based on a small corner of Dover. I don't intend to make it an exact model though. The period, place and railway may all end up being very different. I do intend to finish this one though - and keep it! This is a map showing the rough area the diorama will cover. To the left is Dover Town station (South Eastern Railway). The big square building at the top of the map is the Lord Warden Hotel, just about the only part of this area still in existence. At bottom right is the Admiralty Pier, which was greatly widened just before WW1 to make room for the new Western Docks station. The pier wall still exists.The orange line roughly shows the extent of the diorama, though I still have to work out the final shape and size. Here is a photo from the pier, showing the Lord Warden Hotel in the middle. On the left is the Pilot House, which the railway ran through on its way to the SER station. Between the Pilot House and the hotel is a glimpse of part of the SER station building. On the right is the London, Chatham & Dover line from Dover Priory station. The tall, narrow building in the middle right of the photo was a signal box. The diorama will be viewed from what is the left hand side of this photo. This is the view from the hotel looking towards the pier. There will be no pier on my diorama though. For the time being, the diorama will end just before the pier. In the long term, I will probably model a more conventional station in place of the pier. I have a good idea for this, which I will take into account when planning, but let's get the first stage built first - and then move on to more ambitious ideas! The diorama will have to be called something other than Dover, but I have no problem with that! I would rather use a real place than a completely fictitious idea as the basis for my diorama, even if I change some of the detail. Experience with building the Lime Street diorama has convinced me that this will give a more believable model in the long run. It will be a while before I start work on the model, as a fair bit of planning has to be done first. I plan to approach this in a similar way to the Lime Street diorama, covering the research and history along the way, as well as the modelling. To be honest, I had not planned to make this project public - at least until it was well under way - but the interest shown in my last project has persuaded me to publicise it from the very beginning. Quite apart from the huge amount of interest shown, I got a lot of help with prototype information and modelling ideas through my entries on RMWeb , so it must surely be the best approach for this project too! This place first came to my attention many, many years ago, in the days when I used to borrow and avidly read library books. The frontispiece in the David & Charles book on the South Eastern & Chatham Railway portrayed this little corner of Dover. It stuck in my mind as something that would be really nice to model, even though I have no particular interest in the Southern Railway and its constituents. I could never figure out how best to do it, or easily find the information I needed to do a good job until now. The power of the Internet has finally made it possible - including the discovery of a few scenes looking from the pier towards the hotel, which I had never seen until very, very recently. The diorama provides a nice mix of different things to have a go at, including a beach, working crossing gates and most of all, some very, very interesting buildings. The trackwork is not particularly complicated - but I can more than make up for that as I extend the layout in the future. So, that's it for the time being. I have to catch up on my work over the next week or so - and then the serious planning will begin! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiwinewt Posted October 9, 2011 Share Posted October 9, 2011 After your work on Lime St, I can't wait to see this one progress! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Kris Posted October 9, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 9, 2011 Lots of potential with this one. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest oldlugger Posted October 9, 2011 Share Posted October 9, 2011 Yet another very interesting project here. Good luck with it Weekday Cross! I'm intrigued by your user name; how did you choose it? Cheers Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weekday Cross Posted October 9, 2011 Author Share Posted October 9, 2011 Hi - Glad everyone so far likes it! As for the name, I was once browsing through some photos of Class 31s and came across one I particularly liked, where the loco was coming out of the tunnel on the Great Central line at Weekday Cross Junction in Nottingham. The name of the location stuck in my mind. It's as simple as that! The Class 31 photo is here: My avatar is a picture of the cross itself, which has long since disappeared, I believe. As a special treat, here is another photo of the site, with a train actually going through the Pilot House. WC Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sykes Posted October 9, 2011 Share Posted October 9, 2011 Excellent idea; I look forward to seeing it progress. Are you going to go the whole hog and model it in SECR days? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weekday Cross Posted October 9, 2011 Author Share Posted October 9, 2011 Excellent idea; I look forward to seeing it progress. Are you going to go the whole hog and model it in SECR days? An interesting question..... My idea is to base the diorama very roughly on Dover but to model it as a fictitious location. That gives me the freedom to choose a much wider time frame and add extensions that bear little or no relation to Dover in due course. I am most likely to run BR diesels, mainly because the scenic modelling interests me far more than the trains. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Hudson Posted October 9, 2011 Share Posted October 9, 2011 Sounds really interesting; do you have a link to your last project? Andrew Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weekday Cross Posted October 9, 2011 Author Share Posted October 9, 2011 Hi Andrew The link is here I never quite finished it, as the diorama was built largely for the 2011 Challenge and I ran out of time! A few of the photos were accidentally deleted too. I've been following your little project with interest, by the way - very nice too! WC Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium nick_bastable Posted October 9, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 9, 2011 all four of Dovers stations would make good models I see LWH most days let me know if you need any photos Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weekday Cross Posted October 9, 2011 Author Share Posted October 9, 2011 all four of Dovers stations would make good models I see LWH most days let me know if you need any photos Agreed, and 3 were close enough together to make one fantastic layout in T gauge! Thanks for the offer of information, but LWH is in Bristol (Lawrence Hill) - I don't see the connection Only joking! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weekday Cross Posted October 9, 2011 Author Share Posted October 9, 2011 Nick's kind offer to get me details of the Lord Warden Hotel made me look at the photos I had just to see what queries I might have. Looking at the images closely, I couldn't work out why the building looked so different over time. Then I realised that a whole new block had been added at some time on the town side of the building, replacing the elaborate porte cochere. Here's a before and after................. The change doesn't affect me hugely, because this side does not have to be modelled, but a careful study of other parts of the building shows a number of other, more subtle changes over the years. Nevertheless, I probably have enough historic photos of the building to make a reasonable copy. It is probably things like the roof and the terrace on the seaward side that could do with a little more investigation. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
richbrummitt Posted October 9, 2011 Share Posted October 9, 2011 Good Luck! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weekday Cross Posted October 9, 2011 Author Share Posted October 9, 2011 Thanks for wishing me luck, Rich! I had a quick play around with some scale maps this evening. The first image shows the approximate area of the diorama - though I still have to define the boundaries exactly. A bit of tweaking will be necessary in a few places, as either the cartographer or the South Eastern Railway's planners got a few kinks where they shouldn't be - especially under the Pilot House! The second image includes the South Eastern station, most of which will not be modelled at this stage - though it will almost definitely be added later. I will have to take it into consideration at this stage to make sure that everything lines up OK in the future. The second photo clearly shows the kink in the trackwork on the map, as the track goes through the Pilot House. Although I knew roughly what size everything was going to be early on, I must admit to being slightly surprised how small it all seems, now that I have printed it to scale - quite the opposite of most of my crazy ideas. Over the next week or two I will tweak everything to get it all exactly how I want it to be. Some of the details will differ from the real Dover, to suit my personal taste. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Natalie Graham Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 An interesting project. I look forward to seeing this one when it is FINISHED. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weekday Cross Posted October 10, 2011 Author Share Posted October 10, 2011 An interesting project. I look forward to seeing this one when it is FINISHED. Is a layout ever truly finished, Natalie? I do take the hint though! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Kris Posted October 10, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 10, 2011 I wonder if the track went through the pilot house at a slight angle to help the entrance with the next building and the cartographer just put it entering the building at a right angle on both sides. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weekday Cross Posted October 10, 2011 Author Share Posted October 10, 2011 I wonder if the track went through the pilot house at a slight angle to help the entrance with the next building and the cartographer just put it entering the building at a right angle on both sides. That was my feeling too Kris! However, the interior of the station presents one or two problems as well, when I get around to extending the diorama, so I will almost certainly have to alter the alignment of the curve slightly anyway. My only plan of the interior of the station comes from an 1870s 1:500 OS map, which shows a layout that probably would not be allowed after the 1889 Regulation of Railways Act, including a very narrow platform and some tight clearances. To sort that out, I may widen the station a little bit, which would eliminate the kink. There were lots of coach/wagon turntables and other quaint things in the station interior too. The original arrangement of pointwork at the station throat takes some believing, not to mention there being no direct connection for down trains to run onto the pier. I will cut back most of the overall roof too, so operators and spectators can see what is happening (bomb damage/post-war rationalisation). In fact, the whole thing will need some imaginary modernisation to bring it into a more recent era. In reality this never happened, as passenger services were transferred to the new Western Docks station or the cut off to Dover Priory well before the modern age. The whole station is very atmospheric though, so it should be well worth the effort! Anyway, back to the diorama...... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
£1.38 Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 It is amazing to me that somewhere so simple could feel so atmospheric. You have certainly chosen a wonderful subject to model! Capturing the atmosphere will be key to your success with this one - a sense of strong sea breezes, sea spray, ozone, the sound of sea birds, the smell of fish, the peeling paint......... you probably know the kind of thing I mean! Please, please don't make it the bright, cheerful, always-sunny kind of atmosphere that most modellers aim for. I suspect this one needs to look very grim and neglected to really succeed! And as Natalie said, it would be nice to see it finished (please)! Good luck! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bedders Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 My only plan of the interior of the station comes from an 1870s 1:500 OS map, which shows a layout that probably would not be allowed after the 1889 Regulation of Railways Act, including a very narrow platform and some tight clearances. To sort that out, I may widen the station a little bit, which would eliminate the kink. There were lots of coach/wagon turntables and other quaint things in the station interior too. The original arrangement of pointwork at the station throat takes some believing Any chance you could post a copy of this? Sounds fascinating, like the whole project Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weekday Cross Posted October 12, 2011 Author Share Posted October 12, 2011 Hi You will have to go to old-maps.co.uk, I'm afraid, for the track plan. The 1871 map shows the whole of Dover, plus the track almost up to Shakespeare Cliff at 1:500. It is the only map I know of that shows the interior of the station. It includes the purposes of the various station offices etc. All the rest just show the overall roof with none of the detail underneath. As with any detailed information, it does provide as many questions as answers! The 1:500 Ordnance Survey maps have only recently become available, I believe, and only seem to cover urban areas. They vary from place to place in style and detail. Some show the detail of station interiors, others just show the buildings in outline.They are well worth looking up though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weekday Cross Posted October 12, 2011 Author Share Posted October 12, 2011 It is amazing to me that somewhere so simple could feel so atmospheric. You have certainly chosen a wonderful subject to model! Capturing the atmosphere will be key to your success with this one - a sense of strong sea breezes, sea spray, ozone, the sound of sea birds, the smell of fish, the peeling paint......... you probably know the kind of thing I mean! Please, please don't make it the bright, cheerful, always-sunny kind of atmosphere that most modellers aim for. I suspect this one needs to look very grim and neglected to really succeed! And as Natalie said, it would be nice to see it finished (please)! Good luck! Wow you make it sound a real challenge! I agree about the squalor though! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weekday Cross Posted October 12, 2011 Author Share Posted October 12, 2011 I was writing loads of files onto CDs on my laptop this morning, so had plenty of time to think about other things. Here is a photo of the Lord Warden Hotel, scaled and placed onto the plan. I adjusted it a bit for perspective in Photoshop. The coaches in the lower part of the picture show how narrow the platform on the pier track was. My plan is to widen this and push the right hand wall of the station out a bit to accommodate the change. That will eliminate the wobble in the track as it passes under the Pilot house, just in front of the Class 24 loco. I have also found a few more great pictures on the web - including a high resolution, early image of the Lord Warden Hotel taken from the pier that I have downloaded from the V&A site. This shows some really nice details. I have discovered that the Kent Records Office in Dover has some information relating to the railways and the Dover Harbour Board. I hope to go along and see what is in there soon. According to the summary, it includes some information on the SER station. The station and the hotel were built on DHB land, I believe, so the DHB had a say in what happened. This visit will give me a chance to see the area first hand. It must be at least 15 years since I last went to Dover - and then it was to the Eastern Docks, at the wrong end of town. I am rapidly developing an appetite for building the Lord Warden Hotel before I do anything else. It is, after all, the major feature on the diorama. Hopefully, I can spend a little time working out how best to build it over the next week or so. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weekday Cross Posted October 14, 2011 Author Share Posted October 14, 2011 Still nothing to report on the modelling front, but research is fun! The area of my diorama is proving to have a few intriguing mysteries. It would be very tempting to spend a lot more time finding out all I can about the buildings. I must not get too distracted though, as most of the station, at least, will not be modelled in stage one - just a diorama centred around the Lord Warden Hotel. Anyway, things I have found that might be of interest include the following:- The V&A's Francis Frith collection contains 2 superb high resolution images that can be downloaded free for private research purposes. This one is of the hotel taken from the pier. It shows some superb detail, including most of the station frontage facing the hotel and the Pilot House. This one is a panoramic view of Dover from the heights, showing the LC&DR station in the foreground and in the distance, the SER's Town station, which is what I am interested in. The resolution on the downloaded file is good enough to pick out details of the loco shed and the full length of the train shed. There is an 1846 guide to the London to Dover line on line here which contains a description of the station, including some dimensions. These more or less match the 1:500 OS map of 1871. There is also a description of how the station was operated in the early days. I found a couple of drawings showing a campanile (tower) at the hotel end of the station building. The above guide suggests this was still to be built in 1846 - and quite possibly never was. Once the hotel was built, it would have been well hidden from view from most angles anyway, so a wasteful extravagance. Mind you, the hotel was not opened until 1853....so you never know? The hotel was designed by Samuel Beazley, a leading theatre architect, amongst other things. The station, on the other hand, was designed by Lewis Cubitt, more famous for the mighty Kings Cross. In its day, the SER's Dover station was the major entry and exit point for the UK, difficult to imagine in these days of multiple airports and the Channel Tunnel. It was seen as the other end of the SER to their London terminus at Bricklayers Arms, rather like Holyhead was to Euston. The Pilot Tower was supposedly built in 1848 and demolished in 1913. Various illustrations suggest that a similar building existed for a while before the railway arrived - though the upper part is remarkably similar to the later one. Maybe the original upper stories were rebuilt on a new base to allow trains to pass through? The general conclusion from all of this research is that a totally accurate model of any of the buildings would be impossible. I could do a reasonably accurate model of the Lord Warden Hotel. Even the Pilot House would not be too bad, though the north elevation, hidden from view in the diorama, would be complete guesswork. The station would be the biggest problem, unless I find a dramatic new source of information. I have already mentioned that I would like to widen it slightly and modify the track layout, to make it more practicable as a working station. The overall roof would have to be cut back considerably too, to give operators and viewers a view of the interior. Much of the detail would have to be an educated guess - especially the architectural detail of the interior. I found one sketch and a photo of the interior of Bricklayers Arms, also designed by Cubitt, that might give a few clues. Looking at Kings Cross too (1852), there are a few similarities, like the large semi-circular windows at first floor level on the inside, which look very similar to first floor windows on the outside elevation of Dover - and the use of yellow brickwork. I think my best solution may be to study Cubitt's work at Kings Cross. I can then come up with something "Cubitesque" - based on what I can find out about Dover, plus an educated guess at whatever I need to fill in the gaps. The Kings Cross hotel was another of his works, opened in 1854. It all adds up to the conclusion, as I felt from the beginning, that the diorama should be some fictitious place based on Dover, with no claim to be an actual model of the place. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 It's a fascinating idea; I had no idea that this was how things were laid out before Dover Maritime was built. The idea of someone building a railway through what was presumably a pre-existing building is a very curious one; wouldn't it have been easier to build a new building? The hotel still stands, though it's an office block now- I'm not sure who the current occupants are, but it was the headquarters of BR' shipping operation until that was sold to Stena. A colleague who worked there told me that it had a radio room, based on a shipborne one, to keep contact with the various vessels. There's precious little else remaining there now; the only other 'old' buildings are a café opposite the hotel, and what I believe was the hydraulic 'power station' for the dock machinery, on the Priory side of the Lord Warden. This latter often appears in shots of wagons waiting for the train ferry, in the days before the new link-span was built. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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