'CHARD Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 That's pretty well put, Richard, to be honest. Did I imagine it, or was there mention of SMP flexible track being available over-the-counter? I think Coach actually alluded to this in fact. If so, which, or whose counter? Only I reckon this thread's put me in the market for test-driving some. EDIT - yes, it was Coach: I think the simple answer is yes, track is the poor relation. We can already buy off the shelf flexible yard lengths of British bullhead track from SMP for instance, but It is matching points that are unnavailable. For me, being not the slightest bit interested in building or even laying track, I want the simplicity of Peco Streamline allied to British sleeper spacing, chairs and simple electrics. And that succinctly sums up the position for me on the subject... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
micknich2003 Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 Without doubt trackwork is certainly the poor relation, but each to his own. I personaly like making things, so for me to build track that is close to the realthing is the answer. Operating does not interest me one bit but nevertheless anything I make must work. I'm sure if it did (operating), I would be more keen on Peco or similar track. Whats more when I changed to EM gauge c1966 there was no option but to make ones own track. A final thought, if making your own, do a bit of research, for example laying a "B6" turnout with "9ft Timbers" does not change it to an accurate representation of a pregrouping turnout. The infomation is out there and can be had relitivly easy. Best Wishes, Mick Nicholson. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Harrap Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 Actually I'm the poor relation, donations gratefully received, Brian. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted October 12, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 12, 2011 Did I imagine it, or was there mention of SMP flexible track being available over-the-counter? I think Coach actually alluded to this in fact. If so, which, or whose counter? Only I reckon this thread's put me in the market for test-driving some. EDIT - yes, it was Coach: Alton Model Centre sell it - by the box-full if needed. (they do mail order but I don't know about yard lengths of track - I'm close enough to drive down and load up). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium kevinlms Posted October 12, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 12, 2011 As regards, signalling, I would like to see those with knowledge of such things to bring signalling to the fore on here with articles that will give us a greater understanding of the why and wherefore. There is lots of help here for those requesting signalling assistance with proposed layouts here. Articles & questions aren't the same thing I agree, but questions can be very specific, but then many are afraid to ask a question for fear of sounding stupid. I reckon its sillier to wait for an unknown period waiting for the question you been wanting to ask, be raised by some one else. It may never happen. Kevin Martin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted October 12, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 12, 2011 There is lots of help here for those requesting signalling assistance with proposed layouts here. Articles & questions aren't the same thing I agree, but questions can be very specific, but then many are afraid to ask a question for fear of sounding stupid. I reckon its sillier to wait for an unknown period waiting for the question you been wanting to ask, be raised by some one else. It may never happen. Kevin Martin Indeed, "we"* aren't the signalling mafia after all - we* do try and help when asked. * those who take time to answer. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted October 12, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 12, 2011 There is lots of help here for those requesting signalling assistance with proposed layouts here. Articles & questions aren't the same thing I agree, but questions can be very specific, but then many are afraid to ask a question for fear of sounding stupid. I reckon its sillier to wait for an unknown period waiting for the question you been wanting to ask, be raised by some one else. It may never happen. Kevin Martin Quite right Kevin and as I always used to say when giving talks etc 'don't be afraid to ask what you think is a stupid question because they can often be the ones that lead to some useful explanations and answers'. It's all too easy to assume that the person who asked the question knows why he/she asked it and that they understand the things that made them ask (sorry if that sounds a bit snobbish but it definitely isn't meant to be - it can be very easy to fail to understand why a question is asked). And I agree absolutely with Beast about taking time to answer - I do not respond initially on some signalling questions because I'm either thinking about them or I know that someone else has more expertise in the area than I do, but I (and e.g. Beast) might well come along later to hopefully build on the initial answer (and not to show how 'clever' we think we are). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.A.C Martin Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 Probably a silly question..but what the heck. Okay, let's say we have the standard code 100 rails, and we don't like the sleeper spacing and type they have. Why wouldn't - as an aftermarket alternative - injection moulded sleepers to fit the code 100 rails, but designed to the correct sleeper type and spacing suitable for 00 scale, sell on their own? Surely that would be the best compromise? Okay, with both rails and sleepers new tooling might cost too much, but if you settle on a type of rail someone else makes, and create a product compatible with said rail type, wouldn't that be cheaper overall and also offer a product some people say they want? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
APOLLO Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 Peco OO pointwork is going "backwards". Anyone notice they now omit the small electrical tabs under the blades. Electrical continuity dependant on the side of the blade - dosn't allways work & has caused me, at least, some problems. I agree there is plenty of room for improvement with track, pointwork & signals. And DON'T get me going about the new small bendy (left to right & up & down) tension lock couplers. Useless. Try propelling a 12 car rake so fitted over well laid pointwork & you will see. Time for the manufacturers to hold a bit on new models and get what they allready have working better. (couplers, back to backs, haulage (i.e. WEIGHT) etc etc Brit 15 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southernman46 Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 shifting them rails can cause problems http://lionels.orpheusweb.co.uk/RailSteam/GWRBroadG/BGHist.html Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.A.C Martin Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 Change the code 100 for code 75 and isn't that more or less what C&L and SMP already do? In which case I'll withdraw the question! Fair enough Mickey. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 Using existing point and crossing geometry, i wonder us how expensive it would be for Peco to have a new sleeper tool made to British standard? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Russ (mines a pint) Posted October 12, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 12, 2011 If we leave peco alone for the moment (they get enough stick?!) - what about a firm who has a two-tier range like Hornby? You have the cheapo trainset and railroad ranges- but then would like the 'discerning modeller' (whoever they are) to spend £100+ on something with super-detail or sound or both? - then expect it to run on the same track, on some of the curves that it wont even go round? A different 'line' (groan) of argument, but one which makes no sense? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 But anyone who wants track which looks more like real track, but who isn't confident enough to try it for themselves, can buy track made to their specifications: it simply costs a lot more - I have been told £60 per turnout. If you build them yourself, and file up the vees and blades, then you are looking at 3 hours and £10-£15. That is not a lot of time per point, you just have to be prepared to make a few duff ones first! I don't think I would agree with you Simon that handbuilt points cost 10 - 15 pounds. All you need is some copper clad strip and some rail - not very expensive on a per point basis. Now you can buy pre-machined blades for 7 pounds a pair. Blades are the most time consuming element and difficult to get right. You can also buy pre-assembled crossings for around 14 pounds. If one was to fabricate everything, the cost would probably be only a couple of pounds per point but might take 4 or 5 hours. Yes, I have made a few duff ones but in the last year or so I made a number of successful points for our club layout. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted October 12, 2011 Author Share Posted October 12, 2011 Perhapps its us modellers who are at fault, for years we put up with cheap but not very good RTR rolling stock, other companies came in with better looking models (if not better working) and slowly over the years the quality just keeps improveing. I guess we get a track system not up to the standards of modern day rolling stock and buildings because too few people expect better quality and too many are willing to put up with what is being offered. I do bow to the superior knowlage of those who state tooling costs are too high, but what makes me doubt that is the tooling and assembly costs of a loco must be many times that of a length of track or a turnout. Now a loco may cost £100 a time and some may buy 10 or more locos, but they only buy one or two of each loco, when track is brought in lengths. Also you are not tooling up for a full meter of track but strips 100mm long, so with 10 sections per meter and modellers buying several meters at a time, so the tooling costs will be even cheaper. Ok tooling for turnouts will cost more, but if you had small, medium and large turnouts thats 6 items plus 3 or 4 extra xovers etc, quite a few modellers would be prepaired to relay their track and I guess most who go out and buy a new turnout would buy an 00 one rather than a H0 one. Other industries make a good living getting people to up grade perfectly good items to new models so perhapps the Model Railway industry is missing a trick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 Hi John, I was thinking of building a point from C&L type components, as I prefer the look of them, but I agree it can be very cheap, and great fun. Agree Simon, a C&L point will cost a bit more. Timbertracks even more. I also agree that these look much better. Best to build the crossing separately as a sub assembly. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin4d Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 There are many different areas of railway modelling, such as building locos, modelling scenery and running trains. I think it depends on the individual as to which main area they are interested in (and this can change over time). I've always been more interested in the modelling part rather than running trains, so I am willing to spend a bit more time and effort (and money I guess) trying to get things like the track looking as correct as possible. For people like me who care about these details there is EM and P4 (although 00 can also be very realistic). Others who are more interested in running trains don't care as much about the track & signals and as mentioned before there is little help in buying realistic off the shelf track or signals as the market for this is limited. Those who feel the need will spend the time making thes things themself and will probably enjoy it. Those who don't wont and will concentrate on the other aspects they are interested in, and enjoy those. It is a varied hobby, and attracts all sorts. I wouldn't criticise someone for not doing what I would do as it's their choice. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 .... I wouldn't criticise someone for not doing what I would do as it's their choice. Happily, in the context of this thread, I don't think anybody has. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Re6/6 Posted October 13, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 13, 2011 Peco Streamline certainly can be improved quite drastically, as shown very well in 'Modelling Inspirations', but unfortunately Peco pointwork is unalterable as far as I can see. I've used it extensively in the past before I became more interested in trackwork. My main problem with it is the poor design of the point blades which harp back to the old Hornby 0 gauge tinplate, totally unrealistic, with the design going back to pre-war standards. The 'Electrofrog' crossings are at least a little better than the 'Insulfrog' variety. Although it probably now won't happen it would have been nice if Peco had upgraded their range with solid switch blades. Anyway that's my view! I'll get my hat now! I hope that I'm not a 'track snob' Dave, I don't make my chairs with blobs of solder! I do like making my own track though. Each to their own I guess.. . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted October 13, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 13, 2011 I do bow to the superior knowlage of those who state tooling costs are too high, but what makes me doubt that is the tooling and assembly costs of a loco must be many times that of a length of track or a turnout. Now a loco may cost £100 a time and some may buy 10 or more locos, but they only buy one or two of each loco, when track is brought in lengths. Also you are not tooling up for a full meter of track but strips 100mm long, so with 10 sections per meter and modellers buying several meters at a time, so the tooling costs will be even cheaper. Moulds have a life, only so many pieces can be produced before the "edge" is lost, and for a yard of track, a lot of sleepers / chairs are required so the production (= tooling) price per yard is probably higher than you first imagine. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted October 13, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 13, 2011 but unfortunately Peco pointwork is unalterable as far as I can see. I've used it extensively in the past before I became more interested in trackwork. My main problem with it is the poor design of the point blades which harp back to the old Hornby 0 gauge tinplate, totally unrealistic, with the design going back to pre-war standards. Think outside the box, if the viewing angle of the point is not directly down the track, the switches are not so obviously wrong - higher baseboards. (now there's a subject... KIDDING) I don't recall mentioning any names as I wasn't referring to anyone in particular Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
10800 Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 Moulds have a life, Oddly enough, the title of a new David Attenborough programme on BBC4 on how to like fungi Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted October 13, 2011 Author Share Posted October 13, 2011 Hi John, I was thinking of building a point from C&L type components, as I prefer the look of them, but I agree it can be very cheap, and great fun. Simon If you file up and solder all the rails yourself the parts are about £7.50 per average turnout (B6 somewhere around 60" radius), using C&L components and I guess Exactoscale would be about the same. Using copperclad sleepers and soldering the rail costs about half of that. Certainly for fiddle yards and track where the sleepers are covered copperclad turnouts take a lot of beating. If wired up as per SMP or Marcway could fall into the plug and play category. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 Regarding Peco points - when we built our new club layout, we had a number of insulfrog points from the previous effort. I recycled these by re-using the stock rails (which have a convenient rebate) and initially the blades. The crossings have to be fabricated. This all goes on copper clad and looks a lot better than the original. The rebuilt point can be done with a non-standard curve as well. Much cheaper than buying new. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted October 13, 2011 Author Share Posted October 13, 2011 Moulds have a life, only so many pieces can be produced before the "edge" is lost, and for a yard of track, a lot of sleepers / chairs are required so the production (= tooling) price per yard is probably higher than you first imagine. If moulds have a limited life span then this completly shoots down the cost of tooling claim,lets say a tool lasts 6 months then they make 2 a year. If they had 1 tool for H0 and one for 00 both tools would last longer therefore over a given period of time the cost will be much the same. In the short term the initial costs are higher as you are making 2 and not 1 mould but they will not have to be renewed as quickly (off setting the initial cost) rhe bonus is that those who have H0 and want 00 track would buy a whole lot of track that they otherwise not have brought. The maths may not be so simple for the turnouts, but if the moulds ware out in time then they would be replaced anyway. Also when Peco had a perfectly good track system why did they bring out 'SET TRACK' if costs are so critical ?. I am not having a go at Peco, I have a lot of time for them. I use some of their products and they have a customer sales / service department which is second to none. I have used the Set Track as an example of a company seeing a sales opportunity and grabing it with both hands Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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