Coaching Stock on the S&D

[Blandford1969]

RTJ asked what coaches ran on the S&D from nationalisation to closure in the topic to do with locos on the S&D. Bearing in mind the variety of stock and unusualhowever it seams appropriate for a thread of its own. I have started it off, however can others add other coaches and numbers. For example when ex GC, L&Y and LNWR stock ran over the line and what it was.

 

Local trains from Bath to Bristol - usually a GW B set or midland 2 set, The 7.01 departure had either a Maunsell or Bullied 3 set to get a set of coaches to Bristol for the 9.03 to Bournemouth.

 

Through services from Bristol to Bournemouth

 

Carter in Backtrack writes that in the early 1950's there were a dozen sets of LSWR coaches in use, each consisting on BTK+CK+BTK.

 

Set numbers in use were:

343 (last photo I have seen is 6th June 1953)

348 (last photo 30th May 1955)

349,402/4/5/6/415/417/420/421/

422 (last photo 14/5/55) -

 

These all had Pullman gangways and all were withdrawn by the end of 1955. These also had a strengthening coach added in the summer service, which was, in the early 50s a Midland design coach.

 

By 1950 Maunsell 59' sets start to appear, the first to be seen being 445-8 and then in 1953 sets 391-9 appear. By the mid 1950s those in the 445-8 left the S&D by about 1957 and sets 391/3 were withdrawn in 1958

 

Occasionally Collet and Hawksworth 3 coach sets were used on the 5.58am Bristol to Bournemouth. You would need to look at photos for specific coach numbers. It is reported a GW B (BE+BC) set ran on the Bath to Templecombe service after 1958

 

During the winter service of 1958 Bulleid 59' sets 963 to 972 started to appear as the earlier coaches were withdrawn. Later still southern sets comprising on Mk1 coaches also appeared (I do not have the set numbers to hand) - In 1960 these moved away due to needs elswhere and then returned in 1961 apart from 973, which was withdrawn. Several were withdrawn in 1963 and the remainder had moved elsewhere by Mid 1964.

 

From then till closure the Southern region supplied 2 series of 3 coach stock. One of L sets (64' Bulleid coaches) and K sets made up of Mk1 coaches.

 

K 534, 557, 572 and L sets 816, 851, 860.

 

I am sure others will be able to supply more information on the sets on the branch and through trains.

 

Hope this is usefull.

 

Duncan

 

For the southern coaches you would do well to consult the Oakwood press or OPC books on southern coaches for specific coach numbers. For modelling purposes you then also need to consider, especially with the 59' Bullied sets when you are looking at as fairly quickly in their time on the line they started to get strengthening ribs running vertically down the coaches.

Edited October 13, 2011 by Blandford1969

[Chris Nevard]

On 'the branch'

• LMS Subs (steel panelled) from mid 1950's until about 1962 (?)
  
• B sets were seen from the late 1950's through to the early 1960's.
  
• Single Hawksworth brake compos from about 1964 to end, often coupled to a SR van
  

Also spotted in the early 1960's;

• BR non-corridor sub
  
• ex LNER sub (steel panelled maybe ex Hemyock?)
  
• Bulleid 59ft something or other
  

[Combe Martin]

By 1950 Maunsell 59' sets start to appear, the first to be seen being 445-8 and then in 1953 sets 391-9 appear. By the mid 1950s those in the 445-8 left the S&D by about 1957 and sets 391/3 were withdrawn in 1958

 

During the winter service of 1958 Bulleid 59' sets 963 to 972 started to appear as the earlier coaches were withdrawn. Later still southern sets comprising on Mk1 coaches also appeared (I do not have the set numbers to hand) - In 1960 these moved away due to needs elswhere and then returned in 1961 apart from 973, which was withdrawn. Several were withdrawn in 1963 and the remainder had moved elsewhere by Mid 1964.

 

From then till closure the Southern region supplied 2 series of 3 coach stock. One of L sets (64' Bulleid coaches) and K sets made up of Mk1 coaches.

 

K 534, 557, 572 and L sets 816, 851, 860.

There is a published colour photo of one of the Maunsel sets in the 44x series on an S&D train in 1961 I think, hauled by a 2P at Broadstone.

 

Some of the Mk1 K sets used in 1964 actually comprised of 2 green Mk1 Brake 2nds sandwiching a Bullied Composite. Set 557 is the most identifiable of these, it's set number being visible in several pictures, but some of the other 3 coach 'hybrid' sets were also used, eg set 559. There are a number of published photos showing a train made up of 2 of these sets, and in one case at least, neither of which is set 557 if the caption's dates and times are correct, which they probably are as they are by Ivo Peters who didn't make many mistakes !

 

All these 3 coach sets can be put together from RTR coaches. The Maunsels in the set number range 390-399 are about to appear from Hornby (being sold as a numbered set, no 390 if their website is correct). The hybrid K sets can be made up from Bachmann coaches. If you fit flush glazing (from South Eastern Finecast) to the Bullied Composite, they look quite good ! .

[mikepaling]

There is a published colour photo of one of the Maunsel sets in the 44x series on an S&D train in 1961 I think, hauled by a 2P at Broadstone.

 

Some of the Mk1 K sets used in 1964 actually comprised of 2 green Mk1 Brake 2nds sandwiching a Bullied Composite. Set 557 is the most identifiable of these, it's set number being visible in several pictures, but some of the other 3 coach 'hybrid' sets were also used, eg set 559. There are a number of published photos showing a train made up of 2 of these sets, and in one case at least, neither of which is set 557 if the caption's dates and times are correct, which they probably are as they are by Ivo Peters who didn't make many mistakes !

 

All these 3 coach sets can be put together from RTR coaches. The Maunsels in the set number range 390-399 are about to appear from Hornby (being sold as a numbered set, no 390 if their website is correct). The hybrid K sets can be made up from Bachmann coaches. If you fit flush glazing (from South Eastern Finecast) to the Bullied Composite, they look quite good ! .

 

Hi ... does anybody know what "N Gauge" carriages have been produced (current or past) that would have been used on the S&DJR?

 

I am trying to gather information ready for taking the plunge on a layout based on the S&D :-)))

 

Regards Mike

 

Regards Mike

[mikepaling]

RTJ asked what coaches ran on the S&D from nationalisation to closure in the topic to do with locos on the S&D. Bearing in mind the variety of stock and unusualhowever it seams appropriate for a thread of its own. I have started it off, however can others add other coaches and numbers. For example when ex GC, L&Y and LNWR stock ran over the line and what it was.

 

Local trains from Bath to Bristol - usually a GW B set or midland 2 set, The 7.01 departure had either a Maunsell or Bullied 3 set to get a set of coaches to Bristol for the 9.03 to Bournemouth.

 

Through services from Bristol to Bournemouth

 

Carter in Backtrack writes that in the early 1950's there were a dozen sets of LSWR coaches in use, each consisting on BTK+CK+BTK.

 

Set numbers in use were:

343 (last photo I have seen is 6th June 1953)

348 (last photo 30th May 1955)

349,402/4/5/6/415/417/420/421/

422 (last photo 14/5/55) -

 

These all had Pullman gangways and all were withdrawn by the end of 1955. These also had a strengthening coach added in the summer service, which was, in the early 50s a Midland design coach.

 

By 1950 Maunsell 59' sets start to appear, the first to be seen being 445-8 and then in 1953 sets 391-9 appear. By the mid 1950s those in the 445-8 left the S&D by about 1957 and sets 391/3 were withdrawn in 1958

 

Occasionally Collet and Hawksworth 3 coach sets were used on the 5.58am Bristol to Bournemouth. You would need to look at photos for specific coach numbers. It is reported a GW B (BE+BC) set ran on the Bath to Templecombe service after 1958

 

During the winter service of 1958 Bulleid 59' sets 963 to 972 started to appear as the earlier coaches were withdrawn. Later still southern sets comprising on Mk1 coaches also appeared (I do not have the set numbers to hand) - In 1960 these moved away due to needs elswhere and then returned in 1961 apart from 973, which was withdrawn. Several were withdrawn in 1963 and the remainder had moved elsewhere by Mid 1964.

 

From then till closure the Southern region supplied 2 series of 3 coach stock. One of L sets (64' Bulleid coaches) and K sets made up of Mk1 coaches.

 

K 534, 557, 572 and L sets 816, 851, 860.

 

I am sure others will be able to supply more information on the sets on the branch and through trains.

 

Hope this is usefull.

 

Duncan

 

For the southern coaches you would do well to consult the Oakwood press or OPC books on southern coaches for specific coach numbers. For modelling purposes you then also need to consider, especially with the 59' Bullied sets when you are looking at as fairly quickly in their time on the line they started to get strengthening ribs running vertically down the coaches.

 

 

Hi Duncan ....

Now that I am retired I have time to launch into long held desire to develop an N-Gauge layout based on the S&DJR :-)))

 

Problem is that I am getting VERY confused with the types of coaching stock that would have been used on the line between 1948 and it's closure :-((( Your list looks to be very comprehensive and I am very pleased that I have found your posting.

 

Are you able to tell me if you know if any of the coaching stock, that you have listed in your posting , are available in N-Gauge .... either current or discontinued???

 

Any suggestions would be very much appreciated.

 

Regards MIke

[Stephen Lacey (92245)]

I've managed to pick up a Hornby train pack of the S&D Maunsell coaches, for just under ninety quid from the Signal Box in Kent - very nice set, so glad of the purchase - one question, if this set was to be strengthened with another coach, what would be suitable?

 

I was thinking about another Manusell, maybe in Crimson and Cream seeing as I know I have seen a colour photo of this formation in the past. Does anyone know which type of Maunsell coach would be appropriate, i.e high or low window?

 

Cheers,

 

Stephen

[Karhedron]

Hi ... does anybody know what "N Gauge" carriages have been produced (current or past) that would have been used on the S&DJR?

The GWR B-sets are available from Dapol. I think a new run of BR-liveried ones is coming this year in fact. Dapol also do some Collett mainline coaches but I do not know if these diagrams are correct for the coaches that worked the S&D.

 

Farish Mk1s are excellent. Depending on the period modelled you might need Carmine and Cream, Maroon or possible SR Green.

 

Dapol have announced a new range of Maunsell coaches to be released some time this year and Farish are doing a range of Bulleids. These are a going to be very useful for S&D modellers when they arrive.

 

Farish produce some LMS Stanier coaches but I am not sure if these are the right diagrarms for the coaches that worked the S&D. I think the forthcoming 50' full-brake will be useful though.

[Combe Martin]

 

I've managed to pick up a Hornby train pack of the S&D Maunsell coaches, for just under ninety quid from the Signal Box in Kent - very nice set, so glad of the purchase - one question, if this set was to be strengthened with another coach, what would be suitable?

 

I was thinking about another Manusell, maybe in Crimson and Cream seeing as I know I have seen a colour photo of this formation in the past. Does anyone know which type of Maunsell coach would be appropriate, i.e high or low window?

A high window 8 compartment Corridor 2nd, I've used a BR green one because I model the 60s, or the "yet to be produced" Open 2nd again in BR green, sometimes even 2 of these !. Not a Composite, I've never found a photo of one of them as a strengthener. 

[Oldddudders]

I remain a bit confused about the Hornby S&D set. It is green, rather than blood and custard, and has S suffixes on the vehicle numbers, thus placing it in the late '50s, when green became the colour once again (we'll ignore Hornby's assumption that Bulleid green and BR(S) green are the same, which photo evidence by RMwebber 10800 proved a couple of years back). So why do the Hornby boxes describe these vehicles as being/having third class, when by the late '50s, third class had become second?

[Jon Gwinnett]

Can't answer that Ian, but it is a superb looking set. One of my books has a photo of it in green being hauled by a 7F - ideal!

[Dunsignalling]

A high window 8 compartment Corridor 2nd, I've used a BR green one because I model the 60s, or the "yet to be produced" Open 2nd again in BR green, sometimes even 2 of these !. Not a Composite, I've never found a photo of one of them as a strengthener.

I've seen one photo where the strengthener was a Gresley end-vestbule second in maroon!

 

Bear in mind that, on the S&D, any strengtheners went on the end of the set, not inside.

Edited January 11, 2013 by Dunsignalling

[Kempenfelt]

Oldddudders, its not so much that they were 3rd class but that the brake's were known as BTK's (or Brake Third Corridor's for the expanded acronym). Yes 3rd class was changed to 2nd class, however the acronym BTK was continued to be used and is probably where the confusion arises.

 

With regards to the Hornby 3 coach packs they are indeed very nice and I myself pre-ordered a pack and will probably have another one or 2 sets in the future, however they are not without fault. Unfortunately Hornby have produced these packs and sold them as the 390-399 sets, however these sets only had 1 rain strip on the roof as appose to 2. They can however be renumbered to the 445-448 series as these did indeed have 2 rain strips although I have only seen 2 or possibly 3 photo's of set 446 published. The colour pic of this set hauled by a 2p at Broadstone referred to earlier in this in this thread can be found in Somerset & Dorset Steam Finale by Michael S Welch, or in Southern Coaches in Colour by the same author.

 

For the Bristol local's on Barrow Road one of the other members is indeed planning the latter mod, renumbering his set to 446. I on the other hand have decided to adopt the surgery option and alter the rain strips as I want at least one of the 390-399 sets. Maybe i'm being a bit too pedantic, however now I know i've got to do something about it!

 

As well as those coaching sets mentioned above, detailed notes about the Bristol - Bath - Bournemouth sets can be found in one of the Xpress publishing timetable books. These sets were the Maunsell 3 coach sets, latterly the 3 coach Bulleid sets, WR 3 coach non-corridor sets (Collet?), LMS 3 coach non-corridor Stanier sets and the LMS 4 coach corridor Stanier sets. There was also the LSWR 3 coach sets which predated the Maunsell sets up 1955? Latterly DMU's and WR twin banana cars W35 and W36 were also used on these turns.

 

On the main line the Bath - Binnegar local was a 2 coacl LMS (period 2?) non corridor paneled set. I've also seen LMS 3 coach portholed sets, and GW Hawkesworth 4 coach sets. The Pines was one of the early coaching sets to be upgraded to Mk1's. Again plenty of LMS Stanier corridor coaching stock on the trains from the north. With trains from the likes of Newcastle, Nottingham and Bradford it was quite common to see LNER stock such as Gresley's and Thompson's. There's a few pics of articulated twin sets.

 

GW B sets tended to be used on the branches from Evercreech to Glastonbury and Highbridge etc.

 

This is only based on my limited research so feel free to add more detail! I've heard that there are lists of the coaching stock used on the S&D around, I haven't however managed to get hold of any such lists just yet.

 

Kind Regards

 

Paul

Edited January 14, 2013 by Kempenfelt

[TheSignalEngineer]

I've seen one photo where the strengthener was a Gresley end-vestbule second in maroon!

 

Bear in mind that, on the S&D, any strengtheners went on the end of the set, not inside.

Sure I've seen a picture of that at Templecombe with a 9F on one end and a Pannier at the other.

[Combe Martin]

The Maunsell coach sets (numbered in the range 390-399) used on the S&D and modelled by Hornby, had (I understand) the intermediate (within set) buffers removed.  Does anyone know if all 10 sets were so modified (and also the virtually same sets, numbers 44x).  Did they have a single buffer fixed in the middle as a replacement to keep the coaches apart (as per lots of southern EMU's) or did the gangway connections do this ?

 

Peter.

[Iain.d]

23 hours ago, Combe Martin said:

The Maunsell coach sets (numbered in the range 390-399) used on the S&D and modelled by Hornby, had (I understand) the intermediate (within set) buffers removed.  Does anyone know if all 10 sets were so modified (and also the virtually same sets, numbers 44x).  Did they have a single buffer fixed in the middle as a replacement to keep the coaches apart (as per lots of southern EMU's) or did the gangway connections do this ?

 

Peter.

Hi Peter,

 

Some of these sets did have the inner buffers removed. In Mike King’s An Illustrated History of Southern Coaches there is a picture of one of the brake ends from set 395, on page 59, where it appears the intermediate buffers are missing and the picture is captioned as such. I don’t recall reading in this book or David Gould’s Maunsell’s SR Steam Carriage Stock about this practice though, or maybe I've missed it.

 

The set make up notes that come with Roxey Moulding’s Maunsell’s of this type state that sets 392, 395, 396, 397, 398 and 399 only had buffers at the outer ends of the sets. None of the 44x sets are listed as having had them removed.

 

In terms of ‘buffing’, I would imagine that the buck eye coupling did most of the buffer work, assisted by the corridor connector. Happy to be put right on that though if someone else can advise.

 

Hope that helps.

 

Kind regards,

 

Iain

[Combe Martin]

Hello Iain,

 

Many thanks for that, I'm away from home at the moment, I've got some books with me but not those, they're at home, so I'll have a read through them when I get back.

 

Looks like we can let Hornby off that one as their set is no 390 !

 

As far as buffing goes, it occurs to me that the Pullman gangways have a big heavy metal base which is probably sprung ?, if so that'll do it ?  

[keefer]

Correct, Pullman gangways have the buffing plate built in and this has what is really 2 small buffers. This provides the damping between vehicles and provides the force to keep the gangways pressed together.

The buckeye shank had some damping too, but that would mainly be to do with not shocking the underframe too much.

If you look at what is fitted to class 73s or 33/1s, that's a Pullman gangway without the gangway!

 

By comparison, the BS gangways were merely a gangway between coaches with buffers and screw couplings, and the two gangways had to be clipped together.

 

I have heard of people looking for sprung buffers for coaches that had Pullman gangways. This is not prototypical - buffers at the ends of sets are fixed (extended) and those within sets are not used (retracted)