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To use sound or not?


Earl Bathurst
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however i dont think you can match scale speed and sound, every steam loco that goes above a scale 10 miles an hour nearly always sounds out of sync with the loco's driving wheels. Graham.

 

Graham,

 

That's a bit of a sweeping statement. Have you tried?

 

Perfect sync is possible at all speeds. Exhauxt beats triggered by wheel rotation detection is one way, though both ESU and Zimo decoders have pretty good sync triggered electronically. They need to be set up correctly, of course.

 

Up to what scale speed can you detect out of sync sound and movement?

 

Paul

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In response to the OP's question, I would say that a "con" for the average modeller is the difficulty in finding space for the decoder and especially the speaker in some locos. Some are a doddle - those that are new and designed to accept a sound chip & speaker (eg Bachmann's 7F). I found the Bachmann 3MT tank and Jinty somewhat difficult. The excellent Bachmann Cl 24 had to have surgery on the mazak chassis before the body would go back on - messy. The best option is to get a loco with sound on board (eg the latest Bachmann Cl 20). If you have the dosh, get the retailer to do the install.

 

I am shattered after doing an exhibition in Ottawa (Railfair). Our layout runs a lot of sound equipped locos, diesel and steam. The background noise in the hall meant that the sound could be difficult to hear and I saw people leaning over with their hand cupped over their ear in order to hear some of the locos. It's unscientific, but I got the impression that our layout was the most popular layout in the place (mind you there wasn't much competition) and we received many positive comments from the public and experienced modellers. Most people seemed enthralled by the sound. Also, at our layout we delighted in giving the kids driving lessons and letting them have a go with the trains - great fun and no damage done.

 

Is sound reralistic? Probably not in the sense that the really serious modeller would want but it is great fun and does encourage better driving.

 

John

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Firstly, let me say that sound, as all other things we have on our layouts, is scaleable!

:-)

Most of the time that I show my sound equipped layout, people buy that the sound is less bass oriented, as they have a preconception that small models are more pitched in tone... I don't know why, but they buy it!

 

Secondly, there is a need for ambient sounds on the layout!

I have it, and my friend Troels Kirk have it (and his is most realistic!), that is a thing that makes the whole illusion c

ome together in my opinion.

To have sound equipped loco's running around in a silent world, isn't at all as "real" as to have them

both sounding! :-)

To hear how it sound see:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXkCoj4aYY0&feature=youtube_gdata_player

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vPXTiYz6pc&feature=youtube_gdata_player

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Guest jim s-w

 

Why is it that compromises in sound modelling makes it less 'realistic', but other compromises like, erm, 'OO' gauge, are perfectly acceptable?

 

Paul

 

To some of us, it isn't! :)

 

Cheers

 

Jim

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There are two things here one is the unacceptable intrusion of sound on layouts at exhibitions. It needs the other exhibitors to agree and give the exhibition manager an ultimatum get the sound turned down or off! The other is the enjoyment of sound on a layout. It is true the on board chips provide no background, but trying to run to a background tape with all the wagon noise etc. is very limiting. Personally I find when a number of engines are about and you can hear the sound of them all it loses something but on a single track layout with one engine running a bit of sound not too load does add something. And you could have a background of general noise as well if you want.

I find too that in 0 gauge the greater distances add to the effect bacause the distances are enough to affect the sound levels i.e it goes quieter as it moves away. In smaller scales this is less so and not so realistic.

Don

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Graham,

 

That's a bit of a sweeping statement. Have you tried?

 

Perfect sync is possible at all speeds. Exhauxt beats triggered by wheel rotation detection is one way, though both ESU and Zimo decoders have pretty good sync triggered electronically. They need to be set up correctly, of course.

 

Up to what scale speed can you detect out of sync sound and movement?

 

Paul

 

Paul, I would hope to be proved wrong, but in my eyes there are so many variables with a steam loco that a sound chip just cannot replicate them all. Things like the train it could be pulling, if you have twelve coaches on the back the exhaust could be very powerfull but speed would be quite low, it would then sound completely different if it where just engine and brake van.

Like you say though it's all down to how it is set up.

 

Graham.

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As usual it's the way sound is used at shows that causes the most controversy. I agree that if you include sound that you need to do more than just the locos too. So what options are there to simulate the whole world of sound?

I'll leave the locos as they are well covered above and elsewhere.

You can simulate flange squeal by using speakers mounted under sharp curves or crossings, activated by push button or even a random sensor. I use the brake squeal function to do this on locos as they go around a sharp curve already.

Rail joints can be cut and metal wheels used and do give a scale sound but you are unlikely to hear it at a show so probably not worth worrying about for a show layout.

Guards whistles and stn announcements, again hidden speakers in the relevant places are better than the sound coming from locos. Various commercial sound effects CDs are avaiable including Fantasonics USA designed specially for modellers.

Road vehicles, now this is difficult as first they need to work with the subtlety of control we expect of the trains! So you'd have to either design mini onboard systems or put up with a generic under the roads sound system. A combination of both, similar to JsW's suggestion of a surround system with a computer sensing where they are is probably the most feasible for realisim.

People, nowt on the horizon to make them move but again various commercial CDs for sound effects can provide city or town sounds that could be fed to multiple speakers. Animals are also covered in a similar way.

Water now this can be done quite well if the water looks like it is moving and will also generate a few who instantly need the loo!

Overall it is possible but sound levels are key and we need to observe sound in the same way we do the grilles on a loco. DCC loco sound is maturing slowly and cranking it up to full to show off has lost it's novelty as we see above in this thread. Allowing for the fact we exaggerate things in model form frequently by using compression or bringing disparate scenes together then a slight exaggeration of sound is also acceptable to me but I do agree it needs to simulate the passing of a train. Iin OO at roughly eight feet it should be barely discernible and there's nothing wrong with people having to lean forward to catch a bit. Background sounds such such as water and talk should be much less obvious and I work on roughly half the distance so at a show you'd need to be directly in front of that section to hear them.

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Richard,

 

Great idea. It all possible, though DCC sound is not the best delivery method.

 

Yep, let's get all the ambient sounds in. Might prevent that awkward period when nothing else is happening 'between trains' on some layouts. Ha ha.

 

Paul

Paul,

 

I wasn't thinking so much of a flock of DCC skylarks (not the GWR variety) but more of a series of continuous loop recordings for the ambient noise.

 

Although a 4mm Scale DCC controlled hippo, complete with belching and farting noises would really make me smile.

 

Regards

 

Richard

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This whole scaleability thing is an interesting theory, but don't be selective with it. Physical scale models may be measurably exact to scale, but until you can shrink the distance between your eyes to the same scale, perspective is always going to to be the 'tell' (of course this does not in general apply to photographs).

 

In this imaginary world you've set up, put your face a scale distance from a train at a crossing or in a station. It will look like a scale model, not reality. For the models perspective to be correct, you would need to view the real thing with eyes 6ft apart.

 

Models do not move or react to the environment like real ones. The physics of it is just as difficult to simulate as 'scale sound'. The model of a heavy mineral train will not (normally) shake the ground like the real thing. But that does not stop people modelling it without having some way to 'excite' the earth. (Though that's given me an idea!)

 

 

 

I do think that the argument that some modelling techniques are more 'realistic' than others is a bit like trying to 'prove' that Father Christmas is more realistic that than Fairies can ever be. Ha Ha

.

I've got some bad news, there is no such thing as the perfectly realistic model. So, to me, suggesting that things that come up to one's personal satisfaction standards are realistic, but anything less is unrealistic and should be avoided is a tad on the pompous side.

 

It's quite right, the brain does fill in the gaps, that's how illusion works. Someone said to me recently 'It's all theatre'. Well, if I go to see a musical, I would be disappointed if it was a silent mime show, only the clumping of the actor's feet on the stage to break the silence.

 

Now, annoying other people at exhibitions is another subject altogether. (And by no way restricted to sound layouts either!). Rudeness and lack of consideration is not acceptable. This is a behavioural problem with the people involved, not an intrinsic reason to 'ban' sound entirely.

 

A bit more tolerance and mutual respect from all sides would be a good thing in my view. Sound is not everyone's cup of tea, any more than finescale modelling is universally 'de rigour'. But then, I'm not suggesting that we should all drink tea. (Make mine a coffee, please!)

 

Paul

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Paul, I would hope to be proved wrong, but in my eyes there are so many variables with a steam loco that a sound chip just cannot replicate them all. Things like the train it could be pulling, if you have twelve coaches on the back the exhaust could be very powerfull but speed would be quite low, it would then sound completely different if it where just engine and brake van. Like you say though it's all down to how it is set up. Graham.

 

Graham,

 

I was responding to your specific point that you felt sync was not possible. It is.

 

You are correct about the subtle and not so subtle variations in sounds depending on operating conditions. It may not be possible to model every nuance, this is a dynamic subject to study. But one can design a sound scheme that addresses many of your concerns.

 

The commercially available sounds have, by their very nature, to cater for a broad range of users. With limited on-board memory, this is bound to create compromises in some peoples' view.

 

DCC sound can be customised for an individual layout, a particular operating type or even an individual's preference. The way that sound is produced from the decoder will be influenced by other, apparently non- sound related, settings. Inertia levels can radically change how a project plays.

 

So, I agree with you. Much of the problem is in the set-up.

 

(If I can paraphrase a well known 'maxim'? Proper Preparation Prevents Poor Pannier Performance)

 

Kind regards,

 

Paul

Edited by pauliebanger
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Now, annoying other people at exhibitions is another subject altogether. (And by no way restricted to sound layouts either!). Rudeness and lack of consideration is not acceptable. This is a behavioural problem with the people involved, not an intrinsic reason to 'ban' sound entirely.

 

Quite agree, we've had some layouts next to us where the chat of the operators is louder than any sounds emanating from the layout.

 

We've also done to death the I like/I don't like sound at exhibitions, several times (this is not having a go at you, just those that want to bring this up every time sound is mentioned)

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Paul, I wasn't thinking so much of a flock of DCC skylarks (not the GWR variety) but more of a series of continuous loop recordings for the ambient noise. Although a 4mm Scale DCC controlled hippo, complete with belching and farting noises would really make me smile. Regards Richard

 

Richard,

 

What country are you modelling? Or do you want a wildlife park added to the UK scene? Ha ha.

 

Paul

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Seems I concur with much already said. Being 'Steam'driven my feelings are unfortunately replication is almost impossible over the range other than what a shunting engine gives, Modern traction/diesels to me comes across as OK. The option of 'Layout sound' from a proper digital surround sound system is one I've not actually heard so cannot comment.As a form of alternative, and seeing a multi sound player for some £130 !, I have recently been 'Playing' with recorded actual sounds for locos pulling away from the station using these greeting card recorders, available to record 10 or 30 secs. http://www.no1gadget...r-greeting-card A number of these are loaded with a choice of actual recordings able to be 'directed' to appropriate parts of the layout by selecting that locations speaker thro rotary switches. In one instance reed switches either side of tunnel mouth , this surprisingly operates by Ringfield motors fitted with Neo magnets, others locos need magnets fitting. Each units on board button batteries are removed and a common rechargeable pack connected. The recordings were off the net and doctored/edited with the 'Audacity' free program which I find good. I constructed an automatic shunting system on part of the layout reverting to a DC feedback controller which allows for some acceleration/deceleration on each movement., The control system allowed me to use 2 of these recorders, the first giving whistle and chuff start, even the graunching over turnouts ,the second the hiss/ clanks etc as the loco stops and changes direction. Switch closure starts the playback, the switch opening stops it..Sounds are repeated each time direction is changed, main disadvantage is the fixed speaker position, but there again most things with our hobby have some compromise. The pull away sounds are split into Duchess, 3cyl LMS, A4, and 4cyl LNER. with separate similar whistles for use elseware. As long as I judge the timing correct it very pleasing to hear the A4 chime and the 3 cylinders as it pulls away before entering the scenic break. tunnel Beeman

Edited by beeman
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To those that would need the ground to shake: Please contact the good folks over at Soundtraxx, and ask them to show you the Surroundtraxx system.... 'nough said I think :-)

 

I'm very well aware of how the ground can shake. My house backs on to the CN line only about 50 feet away.

 

John

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Having a fair number of sound-equipped locos, in HO and On30, you may assume I see some benefit - to the extent that silent locos on that layout seem to be missing something. It helps that these are all US prototype, hence I'm not sure what the steam should really sound like, although being able to set up a mallet loco so that the two engines go in and out of sync from time to time is nice. The diesels are easier to get right in terms of authentic prime mover etc noises, and they are convincing in comparison to videos I have watched - always allowing for the mini-speaker, of course.

 

For the UK period layout I am now building, I haven't even thought about sound. Squeezing authentic-sounding kit into a Hornby M7 strikes me as challenging, even though a sound file may exist. The T9s and Ns are easier - why else do you think nature gave them tenders? - but even if the available sound decoders were a sensible price they would upstage the silent M7s. So we'll do without for the foreseeable. Ditto the French railcars I seem to be amassing for yet another layout.

 

My point is that sound is very pleasing to me on one level, but infinitely dispensible when circumstances dictate. With costs for sound in the UK being what they are, you do need deep pockets and a lot of conviction to take the plunge - but the results can be pretty good IMHO.

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Guest jim s-w

 

In this imaginary world you've set up, put your face a scale distance from a train at a crossing or in a station. It will look like a scale model, not reality. For the models perspective to be correct, you would need to view the real thing with eyes 6ft apart.

 

 

Nearly Paul.

 

If you close one eye perspective doesnt change. All lines still converge on a point on the horizon which in 4mm scale is 76.2 times further away than it should be.

 

The perception of depth is different to the rules of perspective.

 

In reality the human eye only focuses on an area about the size of a 10p held at arms length. Scanning the scene to build a picture. Your eyes will always converge on the same point.

 

Hth

 

Jim

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Who needs sound when running old Lima diesels ? - The Lima deltic sounds great running at full belt with 12 on.

 

I've saved a fortune by making my own sounds. I can whistle like a class 40, burble "out of tune" like a class 25, thrum like a Brush 4 and do a realistic diddly dum, diddly da for the coach wheels at quite a range of speeds. My repertoire of air brake hisses, clanks and bumper coupling thuds is vast. It's a bit difficult & noisy when running 6 trains at once, and my family are talking about having me certified, but I don't care, it all adds to the fun

 

Brit 15 (can't get the chime whistle correct - underpants too tight!!!)

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Wow - this has certainly provoked a reaction!!! I do not have much to add to what has already been said.

 

I remember getting one of my class 37s fitted with a sound decoder - my first - spine tingling moment when I heard the sounds - no turning back for me!!! I have always tried to make my layout as reasitic as possible so just as of course there is sound on a real railway, so for me there needs to be sound on a model railway. It seems as fundamental as others have said about the paint on a loco or dirt on the track.

 

I understand the problems at exhibitions - I think some of the best exhibitions I have been to have put layouts with sound in side / smaller rooms - that solves the problem a bit.

 

Do you have friend who could run one of their locos with sound on your layout?

 

Be interesting to hear which way you go.

 

Some useful video clips on this website - you might like to watch (hear them!!!) Go to Other layouts video page or Videos

 

http://www.freewebs.com/beechestmd/

Edited by PaulWarb
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Nearly Paul.

 

If you close one eye perspective doesnt change. All lines still converge on a point on the horizon which in 4mm scale is 76.2 times further away than it should be.

 

The perception of depth is different to the rules of perspective.

 

In reality the human eye only focuses on an area about the size of a 10p held at arms length. Scanning the scene to build a picture. Your eyes will always converge on the same point.

 

Hth

 

Jim

 

Jim,

 

I bow to your superior knowledge.

 

Models still look distorted close up, though. ;)

 

Paul

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Interesting debate :0)

 

Personally, I don't expect a 1:76 model to sound exactly the same as a 1:1 full size real locomotive, be it steam, or diesel. How could it? It would be totally 'unrealistic' to expect it to IMHO. However, again IMHO, a reasonable sound project recorded from an 'actual' locomotive beats the 'whine' of a five pole electric motor for me any day.

 

IME, it's the layouts with sound that attract the most interest at exhibitions too. If layout 'sound' isn't your thing, then obviously I can sympathise with exhibitors who are spending spending 1-2 days alongside a sound layout.

 

Let's face it, there will be people locked into the analog operation of layouts for many years to come, they don't see any benefit to converting to DCC, let alone running on board sound. 'Horses for courses' and 'live and let live' that's what I say, but in my world DCC and sound is the way forward, if that's not for you it doesn't bother me. :0)

 

Max

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Hi,

As a relatively new subscriber to this forum I am still trying to come to terms with what it is actually all about? If you read though the comments made about items posted onto this site you will find that there is almost without exception someone who has to make a derogatory comment about the question / item that has been posted. Surely the idea behind such forums as this are to give constructive and helpful advice. I have also noticed that without exception it always seems to be the same subscribers who want to post the negative replies to what in essence have been a genuine request for a sensible answer to a reasonable question. We all see things differently and are of course entitled to our own opinions,but why just because someone asks what to them at the time seems to be a simple question do certain members have to once again try to make the person posting the query out to be a "numbty". Quote:- "A person who never makes a mistake probably never makes anything!" We all have different ideas as to what we want and would like out of our own model railway and if we are lucky enough to achieve this then surely that's what it's all about, after all this is supposed to be a hobby. I for one enjoy modifying my locos to fit in speakers in such a way as they look like they were meant to be there,but I would never think to criticize anyone who chooses to stick theirs in with a lump of blue tack. I have been lucky enough to have spent most of my working career in motor sport and on the bottom of all the built sheets for the cars I built were the words "IF IN DOUBT ASK!". Surely this is the main aim of this forum to help out members who are unsure or have a problem and offer them constructive and helpful advice.

I returned to this hobby after a very long break and was drawn back in by the appeal of DCC. I then took the plunge into sound earlier this year and as I pointed out in my first post it has been like drug to me, non sound equipped locos on my layout tend to be "pushed off" into a siding and "laid up" until such a time a funds can be found to fit them with a sound de-coder. The major "down side" to me fitting sound to my locos(apart from the cost) is that is has totally distracted me away from building my layout.I now spend most of my time working out how to fit speaker/speakers into locos, but hey I enjoy it and as I said earlier this is a hobby, and should be about what you want to make it or what you want to make.

 

Thanks B.L.

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Guest jim s-w

The question is sound or not? Not a very open question if people can only reply yes is it? People have good reasons why they like it and equally good reasons why they think there is room for improvement.

 

Sound is a lot of money and people who ask this type of question need to know that there's a chance the novelty will wear off in a year or so before they spend hundreds of pounds on it. There wasn't really anyone to ask when I got into sound but I would have loved to know that would happen.

 

There was a time when I thought exactly like BL. He may stick with it or he may move away from it, it's entirely his choice

 

Cheers

 

Jim

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Ultimately it is up to the individual modeller to get out of the hobby whatever he/she wants from it. I always refer back to a quote in one of the railway modelling magazines so many years ago that I forget the actual source: "What one modeller swears by, another will swear at!"

 

I have fallen for sound in a big (and expensive!) way but I am aware that it is not for everyone. Jim S-W's modelling standards are way ahead of mine but that is not to say that either he or I are "more right" (no offence intended to Jim). It is a hobby and we all set our own standards and ideals and have to accept our own compromises. As Jim says, sound is a compromise because we cannot get the booming, earth-shaking bass out of our little tiny speakers.

 

Then again, we don't get the sheer weight of a train thundering past us in 4mm scale and under. I have often admired O gauge models for the feeling of mass as they go past me. However, I don't have the space or the money to go O gauge as I want to run main line trains, not short branch line ones. That is part of the compromise I have to deal with.

 

I think that sound adds a new dimension to my operations, particularly when shunting. I also used to use some H & M Walkabout controlelrs in DC and enjoyed the fun of using the inertia settings - DCC now allows me to tailor those for each individual locomotive. I never use the functions that turn off inertia or give shunting speeds, preferring the fun of having to learn to drive the locomotives as they are (and yes, I have run into the buffers or rough shunted quite a few times!).

 

If the OP invests in a sound locomotive and then decides he doesn't like it, he can always just run without the sound turned on. If he doesn't want to waste the money spent on the expensive sound decoder, he can either sell the locomotive on, or replace the sound decoder with a plain decoder and sell the sound decoder on - I'm sure there would be no shortage of takers.

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