Bachmann LMS "porthole" coaches

[adb968008]

2 hours ago, Bernard Lamb said:

The slight flaw in that line of reasoning is that model railway items AFAIK do not appear in the list of items that are included in the calculations.

Look on the bright side.

They would be a heck of a lot more if they were made in the UK.

Our hobby is a niche market and as such is very much subject to changes in the world economy.

Bernard

We should separate detailing, accuracy and precision, from assembly of complex parts.

 

Recent coach toolings have moved considerably from the complex multiple pieces into very simplistic assembly.

 

Hornbys new mk1 is a very simple construction, much simpler than even those 1970’s coaches. They can be fully assembled in minutes without tools. They are still very precision and fine detailed, but the detail is moulded on.

 

Their 1970’s mk1’s were made of different sides, chassis, roof and interior assembly, held together with a screw, with bogies rivetted on. Bachmanns older mk1’s are not too dissimilar (but simpler to assemble)

 

The new  Hornby mk1 is a 1 piece body/roof/ends, clipped to a frame, with clip on bogies, with windows glued in.

The Portholes too are a pretty basic assembly, the detail is in the tooling itself, not the huge sum of individual parts like the Hornby Maunsells were, with individual roof handles and vents.

AIUI Dapols old Staniers are made in the UK, and are actually more complex in parts than recent new coaches. Rail’s recent 3D wagons are painted / printed by Dapol, and are entirely UK made, for under £30.

 

I’m actually of opinion that manufacture of railway carriages, lesser detailed wagons could be economically made in the UK on that basis, assuming a precision, accurate and detailed tooling could be made in China and shipped to the UK for use, and that the Chinese would release it.

 

Locos though, and super detailed wagons, the sheer amount of parts and complexity I agree still rules it out for now.

 

Edited August 8, 2021 by adb968008

[Halvarras]

The blue/grey ones could get about, BSK M26986M was photographed at Plymouth North Road behind Warship D827 'Kelly' on a Penzance - Wolverhampton working in June 1968. Almost enough to make me buy one, although a blue/grey Hawksworth SK would suit me better......

[Covkid]

12 hours ago, Bernard Lamb said:

The slight flaw in that line of reasoning is that model railway items AFAIK do not appear in the list of items that are included in the calculations.

Look on the bright side.

They would be a heck of a lot more if they were made in the UK.

Our hobby is a niche market and as such is very much subject to changes in the world economy.

Bernard

I get that Bernard, but not all British toy trains are made in China.  I know some of Dapol's products are, but there is still some manufacturing at Chirk I believe. 

 

EDIT  as ADB968008 has explained a few posts above

Edited August 8, 2021 by Covkid
Correction

[adb968008]

29 minutes ago, Covkid said:

I get that Bernard, but not all British toy trains are made in China.  I know some of Dapol's products are, but there is still some manufacturing at Chirk I believe. 

 

EDIT  as ADB968008 has explained a few posts above

Dapol certainly make somethings in the UK, and purchased a new injection moulding machine too a few years ago.

http://www.Dapol.co.uk/image/data/News Items and press release/UK Production.pdf

Edited August 8, 2021 by adb968008

[Bernard Lamb]

9 hours ago, Covkid said:

I get that Bernard, but not all British toy trains are made in China.  I know some of Dapol's products are, but there is still some manufacturing at Chirk I believe. 

 

EDIT  as ADB968008 has explained a few posts above

Dapol are a fairly small company while Hornby and Bachmann are very much bigger. How companies spread their cost recovery can vary greatly. While it might be possible to make certain items in the UK a large company will take the easy way out and find a relatively cheap source. What is starting to happen with model trains and some other products is that the cheap source starts to dry up as it find it can make more money in other markets. I reckon in about three years time we will reach the crunch point. One way or another the hobby is likely to face a big change, in respect of who is making the models and who is buying them.

Bernard

[adb968008]

49 minutes ago, Bernard Lamb said:

Dapol are a fairly small company while Hornby and Bachmann are very much bigger. How companies spread their cost recovery can vary greatly. While it might be possible to make certain items in the UK a large company will take the easy way out and find a relatively cheap source. What is starting to happen with model trains and some other products is that the cheap source starts to dry up as it find it can make more money in other markets. I reckon in about three years time we will reach the crunch point. One way or another the hobby is likely to face a big change, in respect of who is making the models and who is buying them.

Bernard

I agree, but it neednt be black clouds.

 

I think Rails has shown a good future with its 3D print wagons, painted and finished.

I think this approach is going to take a bigger part of our landscape, as volumes, economies of scale, batch production as well as cost/revenue thresholds have all been met, its only going to grow.

It could be a future were China supplies parts, raw materials, toolings etc for assembly here.

[Legend]

The critical part in this is labour assembly . If it requires lots of labour time then its just not economic to make it here .   However there should be no obstacles to things that simply need pressed, moulded and have very limited assembly . So as adb968008 points out some wagons and coaches that are relatively simple construction could be brought back . I think track construction could more or less be automated too , possibly why PECO still make in UK. 

 

The problem is the market requires more and more detail , not just in parts stuck on but functionality of model , lights ,fans etc . this means more pcbs , more assembly of chassis etc .

 

I do have Porthole coaches but I haven't taken them apart to see how constructed .  But the price I think owes more to what Bachmann think people will pay  rather than the actual cost of the model . They are probably gambling on making a limited quantity at high price to satisfy demand . Bachmann do seem to be pretty good at figuring out what people will pay and maximising that .  I certainly complain about costs but you seldom see any Bachmann coaches at huge discounts . All the £80 DBSOs were snapped up for instance . 

 

I do think that in general its very short sighted to contract everything to China , while ignoring some of the issues in that country . It seems we will surrender all principles to get the lower cost . I suspect that could blow up in our faces .  Hong Kong , Taiwan, South China Seas, Uyghur Muslims ...................

Edited August 9, 2021 by Legend

[rembrow]

12 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Dapol certainly make somethings in the UK, and purchased a new injection moulding machine too a few years ago.

http://www.Dapol.co.uk/image/data/News Items and press release/UK Production.pdf

More than something's, much of their 'O' gauge wagon  range is made in the UK and I believe the plan is for the Stroudley coaches to be made in the UK, although the tooling for all these are produced in China. I also recall reading, in what must be a first, that Dapol had tooling for 'n' gauge Mark 3 coaches, already used to produce model runs in China, sent to their UK factory, so that future runs will be produced in UK. Many modellers assume Dapol only produce ex Hornby Dublo wagons at Chirk. The Dapol modern image wagons with lots of added detail  as well as the powered locos are still manufactured in China.

Edited August 9, 2021 by rembrow
Correction

[tractionman]

On 06/08/2021 at 19:20, Covkid said:

Saw some blue and grey versions on the shelves of my LHS today. A quick look then I saw the price labels and returned them to the shelves.  I think I can call it an epiphany moment and will not be paying 74 quid for a coach, unless I really really want and need it. This is not a grumble or a moan because Bachmann clearly feel justified to charge that much.  

 

TMC now have the blue grey portholes for £40 a piece 🙂

 

all 3, eg https://www.themodelcentre.com/39-452

 

all the best,

 

Keith

[Black Marlin]

Not knowing much about coach history, can I ask a very basic question?

Did the Portholes ever appear in LMS Crimson Lake? 

I ask because having essentially given up hope of Hornby ever providing a Stanier composite, a crimson lake/silver-roofed Porthole would certainly find a home on my layout. In fact, several would - assuming such a thing existed in real life. Did they?

[Pteremy]

1 hour ago, Black Marlin said:

Not knowing much about coach history, can I ask a very basic question?

Did the Portholes ever appear in LMS Crimson Lake? 

I ask because having essentially given up hope of Hornby ever providing a Stanier composite, a crimson lake/silver-roofed Porthole would certainly find a home on my layout. In fact, several would - assuming such a thing existed in real life. Did they?

As far as I can see from Jenkinson and Essery they all appeared in BR Crimson and Cream from new.

[Zunnan]

2 hours ago, Black Marlin said:

Not knowing much about coach history, can I ask a very basic question?

Did the Portholes ever appear in LMS Crimson Lake? 

I ask because having essentially given up hope of Hornby ever providing a Stanier composite, a crimson lake/silver-roofed Porthole would certainly find a home on my layout. In fact, several would - assuming such a thing existed in real life. Did they?

 

Construction of the composites started in 1947 (according to the SVR the first was started in 1947 and completed in 1948), and continued being built by BR until 1950. So in a nutshell, yes some of them will have been in service in LMS livery right at the end of the Big Four. I'll have to have a look in the Essery coach bible when I get home later today to confirm numbers, liveries and dates though. I seem to recall 75 were built by BR in unbranded LMS livery, but of how many were completed in 1947 to receive full livery I'll have to check. edit to correct, no composites were completed before the LMS ceased to exist, but the first 75 were turned out in unbranded LMS crimson.

 

Another option is to use the older ex-Mainline LMS P1 coaches which Bachmann still churn out from time to time. As they're a 1920s design, they're better suited for LMS livery, but a bit long in the tooth. Some Comet bits for the chassis, buffers and gangways and some Shawplan lazerglaze for the windows and they're still a decent model which can be brought up nicely to sit alongside Hornby stock.

Edited January 14, 2023 by Zunnan

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, Zunnan said:

Another option is to use the older ex-Mainline LMS P1 coaches which Bachmann still churn out from time to time. As they're a 1920s design, they're better suited for LMS livery, but a bit long in the tooth. Some Comet bits for the chassis, buffers and gangways and some Shawplan lazerglaze for the windows and they're still a decent model which can be brought up nicely to sit alongside Hornby stock.

 

I understood the mold had failed for one of the two but they're readily available second-hand. Likewise the ex-Airfix P3 pair that Dapol only recently stopped making (similar problems I believe) and are also easy to find second-hand. That gives you a 60 ft composite. With a bit of work they can be brought up to a passable standard to sit alongside the more recent Hornby and Bachmann models, or used as a basis for other 60 ft diagrams using Comet sides, now from Wizard Models.

[Zunnan]

6 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I understood the mold had failed for one of the two but they're readily available second-hand. Likewise the ex-Airfix P3 pair that Dapol only recently stopped making (similar problems I believe) and are also easy to find second-hand. That gives you a 60 ft composite. With a bit of work they can be brought up to a passable standard to sit alongside the more recent Hornby and Bachmann models, or used as a basis for other 60 ft diagrams using Comet sides, now from Wizard Models.

 

I think the last time I saw Bachmann churn the old Mainline coaches out was with the Midland Compound in the Thames Clyde Express set plus some loose coaches...come to think of it, that was quite a long while ago!

 

You could also use the 60 footer Portholes as a basis for grafting Comet sides to produce an earlier 1930s 60' CK. The plain roof lends well to stripping off the vents and putting ribs on, I can't remember which ones have the BR fitted fire extinguisher shelves as that would need removing too. The Porthole Firsts sat around for ages and made it into bargain bins, so that could also be another route if you can still find any for a decent price.

 

I've used the old Mainline models for a few projects, you can probably buy 3 of them for the price you'll find one Porthole for. Considering the scale of work in either case I think I'd go down the P1 route as most of the work is in the bits which get painted black and/or weathered as long as the livery is in good shape.

[Steamport Southport]

2 hours ago, Black Marlin said:

Not knowing much about coach history, can I ask a very basic question?

Did the Portholes ever appear in LMS Crimson Lake? 

I ask because having essentially given up hope of Hornby ever providing a Stanier composite, a crimson lake/silver-roofed Porthole would certainly find a home on my layout. In fact, several would - assuming such a thing existed in real life. Did they?

 

Nope. Not if you want a composite anyway.

 

The D2159 CK appeared in 1949 in Crimson and Cream. This is the type Bachmann make. Details in the instructions.

 

https://www.wizardmodels.ltd/shop/carriage/m50k/

 

 

Jason

[MikeParkin65]

On 14/01/2023 at 10:49, Black Marlin said:

Not knowing much about coach history, can I ask a very basic question?

Did the Portholes ever appear in LMS Crimson Lake? 

I ask because having essentially given up hope of Hornby ever providing a Stanier composite, a crimson lake/silver-roofed Porthole would certainly find a home on my layout. In fact, several would - assuming such a thing existed in real life. Did they?

I wonder if the Bachmann will ever offer them in LMS livery as preserved. I believe all of the measuring up for the current range was done on the Severn Valley Railway where all bar the one under restoration at Bridgnorth are in matching LMS maroon. Perhaps a Collectors Club special or maybe the SVR might commission one or more.