a1 partwork Flying Scotsman

[pecksniff]

Hi Paul,

 

4472 was 'apple green' from 1923-1941 and during this period had polished metal handrails and wheel rims, thereafter it was LNER Doncaster green (darker shade) with painted/lined wheels and painted handrails, that's the easy part, the hard part if finding 'apple green'

 

Hi paul

 

On trawling the internet the closest your going to get is Darlington green either Phoenix or Railmatch, seems like

they mixed up their own paint or a missbatch of Darlington green Stories abound on this loco a slighter shade of

pale, But they advertise Darlington as Apple green...

 

 

Ted..

[Paul Boot]

Hi paul

 

On trawling the internet the closest your going to get is Darlington green either Phoenix or Railmatch, seems like

they mixed up their own paint or a missbatch of Darlington green Stories abound on this loco a slighter shade of

pale, But they advertise Darlington as Apple green...

 

 

Ted..

Hi all, I should have added that I'm actually building kit as LNER 2552 Sansovino, built at Doncaster in 1924. In my ignorance had already purchased Doncaster Green, before realising that there is more than 1 green. More reasearch before spending pennies is called for! Regards,

[simons9]

Hi Simon and welcome.

This forum is indeed a mine of information some of which is really useful. As far as the motorand gearbox go you could do a lot worse than ABC gears. Their website address is - http://www.abcgear.t....net/index.html - I have built my loco for the garden and have added a few refinements like many others. I emailed ABC and told them which loco I was building and that I wanted it to use in the garden and they told me which motor and gearbox would best suit. I had a slight problem with it (my thumbs were all fingers that day)but after a quick phone call the unit was returned to them, fixed and back to me within 5 days with a little note saying all fixed (FOC) and telling me what not to do next time ( apparently it goes round a lot better if the grubscrew is screwed in correctly so that it's not sticking out so far that it fouls the shaft). The down side is that they are not cheap - but you really get what you pay for . I seem to remember that my unit cost in the region of £80 ish

Regards Mike

 

 

Cheers Mike, sorry for delay in replying, many thanks for this, will check it out.

Simon

[redgauntlet]

I note what is said about LNER green which has always (to the best of my knowledge) been apple green. I think (and I have been studying the LNER as my local line for over 50 years) that there were two different mixes, Doncaster green, which was darker than the other mix from Darlington, both were, as far as my reading and studying goes, apple green. There were other differences between locomotives built/overhauled at Doncaster and Darlington. If anyone has any information that contradicts what I say about the two shades of green please let me know, I would need a good source to change my views though.

[Paul Boot]

I note what is said about LNER green which has always (to the best of my knowledge) been apple green. I think (and I have been studying the LNER as my local line for over 50 years) that there were two different mixes, Doncaster green, which was darker than the other mix from Darlington, both were, as far as my reading and studying goes, apple green. There were other differences between locomotives built/overhauled at Doncaster and Darlington. If anyone has any information that contradicts what I say about the two shades of green please let me know, I would need a good source to change my views though.

Thanks for that information. I shall continue to use the Doncaster green from Phoenix as purchased. Cheers, P.

[bushrat]

Hi all,

 

Can anyone help with the following questions?

 

1: Does anyone know of the PMS mixing formula for the correct colour green?

 

2: I am told that there was at least one A3 pacific in blue livery, anyone know what it was named and what colour of blue?

 

I started out building one, and partly scratchbuilding a second, and a couple of weeks ago picked up the first 45 issues cheap, so now it looks like I am going to be scratch building one and a half!

 

Sometimes I hate myself.................... especially as I only have a small oo/ho layout! Bits of A3's laid out in neat boxes and drawers, confusion reigns supreme!

 

Anyway the idea is, one Flying Scotsman, one in black livery, the third in blue, if I can find out a bit more about it.

 

Any feedback would be great!

 

Bushrat

 

 

[Blue Peter]

Hi-Bushrat

Can't help with that one -ROB

[bushrat]

Hi-Bushrat

Can't help with that one -ROB

 

 

Thanks anyway mate,

I have trawled all over the net and can't find out anything - I think maybe they mixed up a "near enuff" colour from what they had by the looks of it. I might try to whip off a missive to the NRM and see if they can advise, it seems a bit pointless putting in all this work then painting the damn thing the wrong shade of green!

 

I'd be happy enough to find the colour it is today, problem is that apart from little pressure pack cans which I dont want to use there is only enamel, and I want to paint using auto acrylic, which I have been doing my models in for years as its more durable and dries quickly (no dust) and can be polished if so desired.

 

Also easily removed with mthylated spirits without hurting plastics, so........... the search goes on, I will post the formulae here if and when I find it!

 

Bushrat

[redgauntlet]

I reply to those worrying about the shade of green,I am using Railmatch 620 LNER Doncaster Green. The reason for this is that Flying Scotsman and Royal Lancer the two examples that I am building for myself and my son (who bought both) they were both built at Doncaster and both were overhauled there so what else would they be? We also have to bear in mind that colour does not stay the same new shade so we can get away with a bit and no one in this world would know if it was Doncaster Green, Darlington Green or whatever, they may, of course realise that Midland Red is not right.

 

To worry about the shade is one thing but to know about the exact detail is another. I do not know the total number of A1/A3s painted in what became the standard blue for them between May 1949 and August 1951, (source The Colour of Steam, The LNER Pacifics by P.N.Townend)I do know that more than one engine was painted blue. The other problem is that several A3s remained right hand drive until as late as 1952/3. The same source as above (P.N.Townend) shows a photograph of 60065 Knight of Thistle in the then standard blue in 1949, other detail to know for complete authenticity is that 60065 differs from the 4472 that we have been working on in that it is an A3 as they all were by this time. It has a GN coal rail tender, and has right hand drive, not being converted to left hand drive until December 1952. The reason for the change to Brunswick green was because the blue did not wear well, blue being an unstable pigment and it also showed the dirt and stains too easily. A quote from Trains Illustrated (Motive Power Miscellany, February 1953) "A3 pacifics converted from right hand to left hand drive include Nos 60044/57/62/3 and 60112." Therefore to change things is not so easy.

 

The A1 and A3 pacifics were painted as follows Apple Green (both types) until wartime black took over during WWII. According to Townend the first A3 to be painted LNER green after the end of WWII was 2582 Sir Hugo in August 1946, its number was changed to 83 in October 1946. There were experimental liveries in the early days of BR 60084 Trigo was painted in both a blue/purple colour before it received the standard express blue. Trigo, an a3 with left hand drive and a high sided, non-corridor tender was painted in five different colours in five and a half years - wartime black till 1947 when it aquired LNER Green, then experimental blue/purple in 1948, standard blue in 1949 and standard brunswick green in 1952.

 

I hope at least someone finds this of interest.

[bushrat]

I hope at least someone finds this of interest.

 

 

Thank you, that is very useful information. I have emailed the NRM and got an auto reply that they will reply within 20 days, so we will see what they have to say on the subject as well

 

Bushrat

[Bernard Lamb]

Hi all,

 

Can anyone help with the following questions?

 

 

 

2: I am told that there was at least one A3 pacific in blue livery, anyone know what it was named and what colour of blue?

 

 

They all received BR blue at some point between 1949 and 1951 except for Gladiateur and Galopin. The first problem is that blue tends to fade. The second problem is that colour film emulsions in that period tended to be not very acurate. Sorry for opening the worm can. To add to the options seven were painted in the experimental purple colour in 1948. Of course if you do choose one of these short lived liveries you will need to pick one with the right tender and the various details might need to be changed to suit the period. Hornby have produced models in the blue colour and there was recently an 00 gauge A4 produced in purple, not sure if it was by Hornby or Bachmann but there was a thread about it on here.

Bernard

[redgauntlet]

Just a suggestion for the poster who wants to use automobile paints, I know the advantages, especially with cellulose which is quick drying and very hard wearing. Why not buy a tin of railmatch apply some to a surface and go to a local automobile paint mixer where they should be able to get it close enough, I have done this myself in previous years. As I said earlier, paint shade is transient especialy on something as potentially filthy as a steam locomotive, the state of which could vary on a day to day basis.

[Blue Peter]

I've just went for "Railmatch-Doncaster Green" -looks pretty cool to me!---ROB

[Old Time Workshop]

 

Just a suggestion for the poster who wants to use automobile paints, I know the advantages, especially with cellulose which is quick drying and very hard wearing. Why not buy a tin of railmatch apply some to a surface and go to a local automobile paint mixer where they should be able to get it close enough, I have done this myself in previous years. As I said earlier, paint shade is transient especialy on something as potentially filthy as a steam locomotive, the state of which could vary on a day to day basis.

 

 

A couple of things to bear in mind with this approach:

 

Cellulose is frowned upon by the environmental lobby, and is not as easily available as it used to be. It has been banned for use in the automotive trade, but is still available from some outlets for other uses.

 

Car paints are made with pigments that perform well under daylight. I sprayed a 5" gauge loco in a close match to Doncaster green. Outside, on the track it looks excellent. When it is displayed indoors under flourescent tubes, it takes on a lurid yellow colour. This was just about OK for a model that spent much of it's life outside, but is not ideal for one that is intended for use indoors. If you do go down this route, do some test sprays and check how it looks under a variety of artificial lights before committing yourself.

 

I wholehartedly agree regarding the variation in colour between locomotives. Pale blue and pale green are particularly poor at fading. Those who have seen any touchup work on Northern Rock on the R&ER (pale green) will have noticed quite how quickly that can fade in the sun. I understand the main reason against Caledonian blue as a BR express livery was lack of fade resistance.

 

Hope this helps,

 

Simon.

[redgauntlet]

Yes, I know about cellulose, I simply offered the thought, around here you get paint mixed and put into an aerosol (UK Tyne & Wear). I use acrylic these days but I find the drying time urksome.

[hollywoodfoundry]

Just a suggestion for the poster who wants to use automobile paints, I know the advantages, especially with cellulose which is quick drying and very hard wearing. Why not buy a tin of railmatch apply some to a surface and go to a local automobile paint mixer where they should be able to get it close enough, I have done this myself in previous years. As I said earlier, paint shade is transient especialy on something as potentially filthy as a steam locomotive, the state of which could vary on a day to day basis.

 

I think the poster you are referring to lives in Australia, in which case buying a tin of Railmatch is not an option. It is not sold here, and that applies to many types of paint due to the inability to ship paint by anything other than surface transport these days.

[pecksniff]

railmatch on ebay send to Australia for £2.50

 

might be of some help

 

Ted

[Blue Peter]

Can anyone tell me ,what type of varnish,ie,gloss,satin or matt,for finishing after the painting?

Ive used Railmatch Enamel paint.----ROB

[bushrat]

Hi all,

Here is the reply gfrom NRM, this sheds a bit more light on things;

 

 

Thank you for your enquiry. We often get asked about BS or RAL paint codes and unfortunately there are no exact corresponding codes to old descriptions such as LNER Apple Green. When the engines were originally painted the colours were subject to some variation as paint was normally mixed from pigments on the day rather than supplied pre-mixed from a factory. Depending on which works was responsible for painting, Doncaster and Darlington produced notable differences in their interpretation of Apple Green. When the new build 'Tornado' locomotive was painted here at the NRM the colour was reproduced by matching a sample provided by the museum, which is actually not quite the same as the British Standard colour of the same name.

 

I recently contacted our paint supplier, Williamson’s of Ripon, regarding these codes and they say:

 

 

“You face the same dilemma as we do on this topic! Most of the 'heritage' colours do not cross reference exactly to BS or RAL numbers.

 

 

The only thing I can suggest if you are able to find out the correct livery colour is for them to ring & ask us if we recognise it. We have a huge database of listed colours but have no idea on which livery they were used. Another problem is that paint names are totally unreliable for ensuring the correct colour.â€

 

 

Some books we hold that may be of some help are:

 

http://libcatalogue.york.ac.uk:80/F/?func=direct&doc_number=001393054

 

 

http://libcatalogue.york.ac.uk:80/F/?func=direct&doc_number=001393033

 

 

 

Carter’s book has a useful Paint Colour Chart which Haresnape uses the references in his book and he states that “it is quite unsurpassed as a reference work.†He also goes on to explain how there can be variations in shade as each batch of paint ordered could vary slightly (perhaps emanating form different manufacturers) and the constituents of the paint could also vary. For example some pigments produced from chemical or vegetable dyes can fade quickly if exposed to sunlight. Others perhaps with oxide as a constituent can darken. I have attached some information on liveries for the A1/A3 classes, taken from the RCTS series ‘Locomotives of the LNER’, which explains when engines were repainted.

 

I'm sorry we can't be of more help but I hope the above information will be of some use.

 

 

Kind regards,

 

 

[sillyoldbegger]

Can anyone tell me ,what type of varnish,ie,gloss,satin or matt,for finishing after the painting?

Ive used Railmatch Enamel paint.----ROB

Hi Rob,

Railmatch do a satin varnish in an aerosol. This is ideal as it is a nice (almost) shine without giving the 'toy train' look.

Regards Mike

[bushrat]

Oh dear, the Rat is in strife again!

 

Still struggling along here, doing bits and pieces in what I think is a more logical order. I am about to cut back the front bogie wheel arches so I can fit the splashers, have had a look at the instructions in issue 68 or whatever, where it says to take 1mm off the arches.

 

Only one small problem, in the magazine photo, the "blue man" has his great mit over the back section of the rear wheel arch, so I cant tell whether I am supposed to follow the curve right back, or to gradually taper it down to the edge at some point.

 

It seems to me that if you followed the curve right back it may not be right, and the sand boxes would be too close to the edge.

 

Would I be better to build the front bogie and fit it first?

 

Totally bogged down in this little detail!

 

Would really like to know what everyone else has done, there was a photo posted some time back, with measurements drawn on it, not sure if it was on the old forum or where it was, I have trawled through that, also the other forum and this one and cant find it anywhere.

 

Can anyone help or tell me exactly where it was posted if you can remember please?

 

Thanks

 

Bushrat

[30801]

Would I be better to build the front bogie and fit it first?

 

Yes. Then you can judge just how much you need to take off.

 

There's a couple of pictures showing what I filed off my in my build thread. Linky (scroll down a few pics)

[bushrat]

Yes. Then you can judge just how much you need to take off.

 

There's a couple of pictures showing what I filed off my in my build thread. Linky (scroll down a few pics)

 

 

Yep, thats good, I will build the bodgie, er, I mean bogie first, and follow your pics. Yours is looking quite good!

 

Thanks for the help,

 

Bushrat

[bushrat]

Yep, thats good, I will build the bodgie, er, I mean bogie first, and follow your pics. Yours is looking quite good!

 

Thanks for the help,

 

Bushrat

 

 

 

Yes, well, the bogie.......................... All going swimmingly until I broke a grab iron and had to fix it, much fiddling later,

"Phew thought the Rat, the worst is over!" WRONG!

I have just spent the last two hours trying to devise a method of soldering the 2 front mudguards on, there is just no way I can find to hold them in place as they are at right angles to the bogie body with no side support. Therefore, no way to clamp them in place.

 

In desperation, I tried a couple of dabs of super glue thinking that might hold them in place until I solder.

 

Naaah! Fell straight off, thats five different brands of super glue I have tried on the brass on this kit, it just wont bond, thankfully I made the hard decision to solder at the beginning, but it is not without challenges.

 

As one who has built a great many kits of all descriptions over the last 55 years, this is the worst designed thing I have ever seen, a simple right angle added to this part would have made it so simple. The only thing I can think of is to araldite a bit of scrap onto these guards so they have some side support to hold them in place and get it off later.

 

Have any of you guys had a similar problem with these?

 

If theres a better way of doing it I would really like to know.............

[30801]

I have just spent the last two hours trying to devise a method of soldering the 2 front mudguards on, there is just no way I can find to hold them in place as they are at right angles to the bogie body with no side support. Therefore, no way to clamp them in place.

I'm not sure I understand. There's an etched slot in the splashers that locates it onto the frame. Just wedge the splasher against the frame with your favourite clothes peg and solder it on.

 

The only problem I had there was catching the whitemetal sand box with the soldering iron