Heljan Class 16

[brossard]

I quite like these early diesels even if most of them were duds in life. They add interest. I did a search but couldn't find a picture. Were they so bad that no-one bothered to photograph one?

 

John

[bluex5]

I quite like these early diesels even if most of them were duds in life. They add interest. I did a search but couldn't find a picture. Were they so bad that no-one bothered to photograph one?

 

John

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/blue-diesels/2437610744/

['CHARD]

Are you talking about Sweet Sixteen there, John?

 

Brush Veteran I think had a Flickr set linked on here. We also did a pretty thorough job over in the Transition Diesel Liveries group:

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/39920-diesel-classes-that-didnt-transition/

being as good a starting point as any.

[birdseyecircus]

I don't understand the obsession with wierd and unsuccessful pilot scheme types that even BR didn't see fit to develop further. Each to their own.

 

Heljan are in the business of making money and they obviously think they will get their money back on these releases. Remember both the 14 & 28 were comissioned by Hattons, though Heljan may well have done these too at a later date.

Though i am no steam expert i bet there are quite a few who would buy a Bulleid Leader.

 

Paul

[brossard]

Thanks for the clarification guys. If I had been riding past on a bike I might have mistook it for a Cl 15.

 

Sound tends to be an issue I think. There is a preserved Cl 15 but I think I read it will not have an original model of engine when done. I suppose we might have to settle for generic.

 

John

['CHARD]

I quite like these early diesels even if most of them were duds in life. They add interest. I did a search but couldn't find a picture. Were they so bad that no-one bothered to photograph one?

 

John

 

On second thoughts, this post tells us something, doesn't it?

 

An RMWeb frequent poster who doesn't know (no offence meant) what the prototype actually looked like. The nay-sayers have a point - perhaps we have reached the low watermark of popular awareness.

 

If we stoop to DHP1, Hawk, and that four letter feller* we're holed beneath the surface, surely.

[Supaned]

I quite like the 16s - ugly and unreliable , but they've got a bit of character about them , though i agree that a 21 or 29 is also much needed. Mind you , the buying public seem to like one-offs and oddballs , so who knows??

 

If this story is true , can we look forward to a glut of 1960s Anglian branch line layouts being the "new" GWR BLT?

[brossard]

In my defence my real love is for steam. I got involved with early diesels for our club layout and for a bit of a change. It is interesting to learn about these esoteric machines but my knowledge is less than encyclopedic.

 

John

['CHARD]

In my defence my real love is for steam. I got involved with early diesels for our club layout and for a bit of a change. It is interesting to learn about these esoteric machines but my knowledge is less than encyclopedic.

 

John

No defence needed m'lud. I just found that one post quite telling, because I wager you ain't in the minority either.

 

Sure there's a wealth of steam classes crying out to be recreated RTR in OO, and I'll bet most have a surer fanbase than the ignominious 16. Fair play to Heljan, but this time I think they're (rightfully) cashing-in on the completist market. There can't even be many modellers of the East End in the mid sixties for whom this is one of their five-a-day. Honestly.

[bluex5]

Thanks for the clarification guys. If I had been riding past on a bike I might have mistook it for a Cl 15.

 

Sound tends to be an issue I think. There is a preserved Cl 15 but I think I read it will not have an original model of engine when done. I suppose we might have to settle for generic.

 

John

 

D8233 has a proper Paxman engine sourced from a stationary generator set, so it should make all the right noses when done.

[Supaned]

in brief , they were allocated to Stratford (East London) , and spent a lot of time there waiting repairs. When they did function as intended , they have been recorded in use on lines such as the St Margarets to Buntingford branch.

[brossard]

Sure there's a wealth of steam classes crying out to be recreated RTR in OO, and I'll bet most have a surer fanbase than the ignominious 16.

 

Now, there I can heartily agree. We need all sorts of smaller goods and passenger classes. I don't have a lot of use for these galloping great Pacifics, but a 2P - that I can use.

 

John

[gridwatcher]

 

I saw who voted up this horrific contribution.

 

You lot are in my sights....

I am with you here....this is getting nonsensical. We haven't got a decent Warship orig or later, 06, 07, 24/25 could do with a rethink? 40, 55? 67, 81,2,3,4,7 90 92 101 104 110 121 122 mk 2 aircon etc etc etc Get your fingers out and give people what they want!! And I speak as an unashamed Heljan fan. Counting the locos in the Airthrey Park fleet we have more Danish than Chinese! Si

[pete_mcfarlane]

I say - have a care, sir! We have a member called 10800 who may be offended, which would be a pity, as he's jointly building the Ouse Valley Viaduct, a structure we might admire.

 

On consulting with my lawyers, I've been asked to point out that it was locomotive 10800 that I implied to be at the bottom of said barrel and not member 10800 whose Ouse Valley Viaduct looks quite good.

 

Anyway, back to 4mm diesels. I'm wondering if it's worth a retailer commissioning Heljan to do a 4mm model of that spoof diesel prototype that Monty Wells did in an April Railway Modeller in about 1984. They could sell a good few thousand (it fooled me, but I was about 8 at the time).

Edited November 18, 2011 by pete_mcfarlane

['CHARD]

Do I mention the Gloucester 100 at this point? I already did the 252.

[Baby Deltic]

A little bit about the class 16: The class were all based at Stratford for their entire lives. They were introduced in 1958 and withdrawn in 1968. They worked right across London on transfer freights, so anyone modelling the North London Line, West London, GE mainlines out of Liverpool Street, Buntingford Branch, Maldon Branch or LTS routes in the 1960's could buy one. They worked onto the southern region via Clapham Junction, and on at least one occasion, one worked over the East London Line route onto LBSCR metals to Brighton on a passenger excursion. The class were troublesome, as were the class 15's, mainly due to power unit issues concerning the Paxman 16 cylinder engine. The class 15's underwent a program of modifications which sorted the problems out, but this was not carried out on the 16's so the problems persisited.

[bluex5]

Get your fingers out and give people what they want!!

 

Heljan aren't making a Class 16 just to troll RMwebbers! Funnily enough they are making models in order to turn a profit, and they have enough experience by now (15/17/23/28) to know that pilot scheme stuff sells. Out of the list you gave the only one I can see happening is the 55 if Heljan do the usual and recycle the underpinnings developed for DP2 under something simillar.

[Peter Kazmierczak]

As Brian Clough might've said, are they serious or taking the mick?

[Baby Deltic]

Its worth mentioning that Heljan have not stated that they are doing a class 16, so it could just be a rumour.

['CHARD]

 

Heljan aren't making a Class 16 just to troll RMwebbers! Funnily enough they are making models in order to turn a profit, and they have enough experience by now (15/17/23/28) to know that pilot scheme stuff sells. Out of the list you gave the only one I can see happening is the 55 if Heljan do the usual and recycle the underpinnings developed for DP2 under something simillar.

 

EDIT - this entire thread is based on supposition, as Baby Deltic has just pointed out.

 

 

Not arguing, I don't think any of us are really. In fact I already said this:

 

"Fair play to Heljan, but this time I think they're (rightfully) cashing-in on the completist market. There can't even be many modellers of the East End in the mid sixties for whom this is one of their five-a-day. Honestly."

 

It's a dead cert for their shareholders, fingers-crossed. But at the same time we've crossed a line into the real barrel-scraping. I'll wager a good many people kid themselves into getting these 'for completeness sake,' more than any release before. Because gone is any glam factor attached to Kestrel, DP2 et al. And there's no movement to speak of like the transition BLT brigade who clamour for the Class 22. No. This is opportunism to me, not any sort of response to vocal demand.

 

Fair play to Heljan (lord knows my fleet depends on them, so I hope this sells), but this should be seen for what it is: working the formula, sweating the platform created for the Class 15.

Edited November 18, 2011 by 'CHARD

[Pennine MC]

 

EDIT - this entire thread is based on supposition, as Baby Deltic has just pointed out.

 

Coming in after a night on the p*ss, that thought is not lost on me

 

 

But at the same time we've crossed a line into the real barrel-scraping. I'll wager a good many people kid themselves into getting these 'for completeness sake,' more than any release before. Because gone is any glam factor attached to Kestrel, DP2 et al. And there's no movement to speak of like the transition BLT brigade who clamour for the Class 22. No. This is opportunism to me, not any sort of response to vocal demand.

 

You could be right there. HJ's 'Falcon' rewrote the diesel rule book in terms of what was viable, the 16 (if/when it happens) is possibly going to close the chapter.

Edited November 19, 2011 by Pennine MC

[m0rris]

I suppose its a case of its my market I'll do whatever I want! Whlst I don't know how they will sell I am pleased that this is another one off the list as it means we edge closer to all those other models we desire.

 

Personally I think it is an odd choice but given Heljans penchant for short life molds (IIRC) and a collectors market currently geared towards early diesel locos I am sure they will be able to make their money and then move on to other subjects.

[wombatofludham]

Reading what others have posted I can see the logic in making a 16 if they share the same underpinnings, as the body moulding must be a smaller proportion of the overall cost of the loco, plus I seem to recall reading somewhere that most models tend to make their money in the first one or two releases, which might explain why Heljan are making a play for niche items - presumably they work on a basis that 100% of a small premium market is better than 50% of a mass market competing with another manufacturer by taking on a more widespread prototype which might at first seem a longer term bet.

 

I'm still not completely convinced though and I'm amazed they lasted ten years. By the way, I'm sure I've seen some video footage of one of these oddities, can't remember if it was on a Huntley compilation or possibly an East Anglian Film Archive video. I'm sure it was on one of the Suffolk branches and it was something filmed either for the BBC or Anglia TV, not a BTF. Good excuse to have a rummage through the video collection if nothing else.

Edited November 19, 2011 by wombatofludham

[D605Eagle]

I heard the news through the Model Rail page on Facebook. I don't know how accurate the news is from that page.

 

Surly a class 16 would be a Heljan class 15 with extra vents?

The class 16s are quite different from the 15s. They are slightly longer, a longer wheel base, bigger spoked wheels, and the sole bar is higher up. I dont think there will be much they can reuse off the 15 model.

 

D8233 has a proper Paxman engine sourced from a stationary generator set, so it should make all the right noses when done.

The new engine is an ex class 15 lump. IIRC its ex D8217 when it was new. The only non orriginality parts on the 15 will be the control gear as it was all lost when the loco was a Crewe. Replacements have been sourced from class 31s thanks to a very kind Mr Needle. We do have a set of correct BTH traction motors to replace the missing ones.

Edited November 19, 2011 by D605Eagle

[D605Eagle]

. By the way, I'm sure I've seen some video footage of one of these oddities, can't remember if it was on a Huntley compilation or possibly an East Anglian Film Archive video. I'm sure it was on one of the Suffolk branches and it was something filmed either for the BBC or Anglia TV, not a BTF. Good excuse to have a rummage through the video collection if nothing else.

I'm pretty sure it was one of the Huntley 35mm compilations. IIRC it says on the vid that it was a regular 16 turn as it was very lightly loaded and didn't cause much in the way of problems if the loco failed.

It is very odd that the engine modifications that were carried out to the class 15's engines wern't done to the 16s. It might have made them more reliable although they used far inferior electrics compared to the 15s. The 15s did become reliable if smokey locos after the mods. According to Richard Carr of the paxman heritage website there was no reason for the smoke, the engines were just set up wrong!