Heljan Class 16

[NIK]

Hi,

 

Regarding my previous post. I've just read the balancing speed for a Class 201 Hastings unit was 23 mph on a 1 in 50 gradient.

So a Class 16 chassis should have enough in hand to be a Class 201 Hastings unit donor if it can haul 5 Mk1 coaches up a 1 in 40 gradient with a 36" radius curve at a scale 40mph.

 

I may be able to test if the Class 16 chassis plus 5 Mk1 coaches will go up a 1:40 gradient with 36" curve on Saturday if there is a quiet period in our Open Day https://www.basingstokemrs.org/open-day.html.

 

Hi John,

 

Yes I've got a few 2-HALs from Hattons bargains but I was looking for a chassis that was a bit narrower but still had a flywheel or two.

I hadn't reckoned on Heljan putting a 3 pole motor in the Class 16.

 

From my loco pull tests and gradient calculator it looks as though getting the right weight to suit the gradients on a layout is a factor.

Too little weight and the grip is not maximised, too much and the bearings of the motor bogie get worn and/or the weight of the power car increases the drag on gradients.

 

I haven't got a milling machine so I can't make my own heavy chassis.

 

I will have a look at how the 2-HALs I have perform at slow speeds with a good DCC decoder with Back EMF feedback switched on.

 

 

Regards

 

Nick

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Have you considered the lovely cheap Heljan 128, Wiil pull more carriage stock than most layouts possess up a 1 in 60. Yes, there would be some sawing required to reduce the side of the block below window height, and the compromise of the fat five pole motor and flywheels somewhat in view, and I guess some filing if the 31mm block width is too great. But it will fit inside a coach body (mine with sundry adjustments is in a Gresley full brake) and the traction is impressive. Heljans 14mm wheel sets substitiute into the bogies no trouble.

[NIK]

Have you considered the lovely cheap Heljan 128, Wiil pull more carriage stock than most layouts possess up a 1 in 60. Yes, there would be some sawing required to reduce the side of the block below window height, and the compromise of the fat five pole motor and flywheels somewhat in view, and I guess some filing if the 31mm block width is too great. But it will fit inside a coach body (mine with sundry adjustments is in a Gresley full brake) and the traction is impressive. Heljans 14mm wheel sets substitiute into the bogies no trouble.

 

Hi,

 

I've got about 8 Class 128s for their chassis but although the chassis sides are quite thick they are as you say quite wide. Probably too wide even with filling for a Hastings unit especially for my first Unit that needs remotoring - a MTK 6S whose unprototypical recessed solebars making even less room for the chassis.

 

Also the Class 128's top speed is also a bit on the low side but with its beefier motor it may be good for 5 mk1 coaches up a 1 in 40 gradient with 36" curve.

 

I may know more on Saturday at our clubs open day when I hope to compare the results of my test track and gradient/curve predictor with real tests on our gradient with curve.

Unfortunately the layout has sustained some damage to its tracks during the week and most of the damage is on the gradient. Temporary repairs have been done, so fingers crossed.

 

The class 16's chassis minus the a lot of the right hand third might fit inside the Hastings unit Cab, Motor and Guards compartment.

 

Many thanks

 

Nick

[SRman]

Hi,

 

I've got about 8 Class 128s for their chassis but although the chassis sides are quite thick they are as you say quite wide. Probably too wide even with filling for a Hastings unit especially for my first Unit that needs remotoring - a MTK 6S whose unprototypical recessed solebars making even less room for the chassis.

 

Also the Class 128's top speed is also a bit on the low side but with its beefier motor it may be good for 5 mk1 coaches up a 1 in 40 gradient with 36" curve.

 

I may know more on Saturday at our clubs open day when I hope to compare the results of my test track and gradient/curve predictor with real tests on our gradient with curve.

Unfortunately the layout has sustained some damage to its tracks during the week and most of the damage is on the gradient. Temporary repairs have been done, so fingers crossed.

 

The class 16's chassis minus the a lot of the right hand third might fit inside the Hastings unit Cab, Motor and Guards compartment.

 

Many thanks

 

Nick

The hauling power of the 128 is prodigious! Gwiwer (of this parish) ran one on his old layout, Penhayle Bay, with 36 coaches. He didn't have a 1 in 40 gradient, but there were gradients on the layout. I am willing to bet that it will manage 5 coaches up your 1 in 40 easily.

 

I would imagine that fitting 14mm wheels (a la 34C's suggestion) would also increase the gearing a little giving a higher top speed. Even Replica Railways quote different top speeds with their chassis, depending on whether they have 12 or 14 mm wheels fitted.

Edited September 14, 2018 by SRman

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

...I would imagine that fitting 14mm wheels (a la 34C's suggestion) would also increase the gearing a little giving a higher top speed. Even Replica Railways quote different top speeds with their chassis, depending on whether they have 12 or 14 mm wheels fitted.

 It certainly did, and it was a greater increase then the simple 17% that the ratio of the quoted diameters would suggest. While substituting the larger wheelsets, I also removed most of the 'tar pit' of glutinous grease at the bottom of the drive train. End result was that a unit which having run some time on its original 12mm wheelsets was good for just over a scale 70mph at 12V, became a scale 125mph capable unit on 14mm wheelsets.

 

(Following with interest Michael Edge's CoBo thread: as a relative newcomer among Heljan operators I would like to understand the likely foibles to look out for.)

[NIK]

Hi,

 

Before my clubs open day started I managed to test my Class 16 chassis hauling 5 Mk1 coaches up a 1 in 40 gradient with 36" curve.

 

I need to double check the distance over which I measured the speed but no slipping was observed and the calculated average speed was 51 scale mph (speed step 126 on DCC).

 

The experimental gradient and curve predictor indicated it would make it up there without slipping and the speed was in the middle between the min and max predicted (the chassis was cold but the track was clean so a middling speed is not unexpected).

 

 

Regards

 

Nick

[NIK]

 It certainly did, and it was a greater increase then the simple 17% that the ratio of the quoted diameters would suggest. While substituting the larger wheelsets, I also removed most of the 'tar pit' of glutinous grease at the bottom of the drive train. End result was that a unit which having run some time on its original 12mm wheelsets was good for just over a scale 70mph at 12V, became a scale 125mph capable unit on 14mm wheelsets.

 

(Following with interest Michael Edge's CoBo thread: as a relative newcomer among Heljan operators I would like to understand the likely foibles to look out for.)

 

Hi,

 

Out of interest which 14mm wheels did you use? - I only ask as I've found the state of the pickups and the track affect the top speed so I wondered about the quality of the wheels.

 

Certainly I remember Lima locos running better with Ultrascale Nickel Silver wheels.

 

EDIT I wonder whether the faster a model goes the quicker the pickups clean up or the better the pickups work. I guess the faster the loco is going the quicker it gets past any particular piece of track dirt or poor trackwork. I just stopped my Class 16 and cleaned its wheels and it was much slower on its first lap afterwards (it got faster the more laps it did). With a Heljan class 128DPU the first full lap of many circuits round my test track was the slowest by far - maybe not good for a mainline exhibition layout where the loco has no time to 'warm up' before leaving the fiddle yard with a train.

 

Regards

 

Nick

Edited September 19, 2018 by NIK

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Out of interest which 14mm wheels did you use?

 

Heljan's own n/s spares, purchased some years before for a project which 'didn't happen'.

 

... I've found the state of the pickups and the track affect the top speed so I wondered about the quality of the wheels....I just stopped my Class 16 and cleaned its wheels and it was much slower on its first lap afterwards (it got faster the more laps it did). With a Heljan class 128DPU the first full lap of many circuits round my test track was the slowest by far - maybe not good for a mainline exhibition layout where the loco has no time to 'warm up' before leaving the fiddle yard with a train...

In short, everything in the mechanism has an influence.

 

I will not rest with a mechanism that is sluggish when cold, and only picks up to full speed after some running. It is just an electric motor and some gears so should run at the same rate every time. Top suspect on these drive designs, excess of viscous lubricant in the gear train.

[NIK]

Heljan's own n/s spares, purchased some years before for a project which 'didn't happen'.

 

In short, everything in the mechanism has an influence.

 

I will not rest with a mechanism that is sluggish when cold, and only picks up to full speed after some running. It is just an electric motor and some gears so should run at the same rate every time. Top suspect on these drive designs, excess of viscous lubricant in the gear train.

 

Hi,

 

Does n/s stand for Nickel Silver?. Also my Class 16 may be at the other extreme as I could find no grease on its gears and its only had a little electrolube added. I may rig up a coach with good pickups that can be connected to a test loco to see how fast it will go with good pickups. A Bachmann OO 2-EPB trailer may be a good candidate as I think it has split axles and pin point bearing pickups.

 

Regards

 

Nick

[Baby Deltic]

n/s is non smoker. (It hasn't burnt itself out yet.)

Edited September 19, 2018 by Baby Deltic

[NIK]

Hi,

 

As a temporary measure I put some conductive grease on the backs the wheel rims of my misbehaving Class 16  (the sort of grease that contains some conductive particles that make a contact when squeezed between two metal surfaces).

 

The Class 16 then ran very smoothly and seemed good enough to shunt with Spratt and Winkle or Kaydee couplings. I was using a Zimo MX634D DCC decoder.

So I guess the pickups are causing problems on my loco but I had disturbed them in order to look at the gears.

 

 

Regards

 

Nick

[NIK]

Hi,

 

I've just fitted speed sensing to my test track using a MERG Infrared Detector and MERG CBUS input module and USB interface.

 

I wrote a JMRI script to calculate the average scale speed per lap from the times the detector was triggered.

 

So the first lap of the test session was the slowest and the speed came up fairly quickly.

A Bachmann MLV was a similar shaped curve but higher speeds.

The best so far has been a Hornby 5-Bel power car.

 

Maybe it has a lower gear ratio than the others so there is less gear friction. Maybe the pickups are better.

 

I may have an experiment with my DCC fitted Class 16 to see if raising the Back-EMF feedback cutoff speed step to a high value helps stabilise the speed albeit at a low value.

 

There could be something odd about my test track that doesn't represent how locos behave on others layouts.

 

 

Regards

 

Nick

[NIK]

Hi,

 

I've just done first lap speed tests on all seven of my Heljan class 16s I bought as donor chassis parts for  Tadpole and Hastings units.

 

Most of these locos have probably not been run in.

The slowest loco at ~25 scale mph was then put through a running in process and left an hour to cool. It then did its first lap at 36mph and the second at 42 mph which isn't so bad. My test track doesn't have track feeds to every bit of track so the locos top speed may be a bit higher.

 

I will try and repair my infrared speedometer so that I can get the speed of the loco on a piece of track with a direct electrical feed.

 

Regards

 

Nick

 

[Joseph_Pestell]

35 minutes ago, NIK said:

Hi,

 

I've just done first lap speed tests on all seven of my Heljan class 16s I bought as donor chassis parts for  Tadpole and Hastings units.

 

Most of these locos have probably not been run in.

The slowest loco at ~25 scale mph was then put through a running in process and left an hour to cool. It then did its first lap at 36mph and the second at 42 mph which isn't so bad. My test track doesn't have track feeds to every bit of track so the locos top speed may be a bit higher.

 

I will try and repair my infrared speedometer so that I can get the speed of the loco on a piece of track with a direct electrical feed.

 

Regards

 

Nick

 

 

I guess you bought these very cheaply. But still seems like a very complex way of motorising DEMUs/EMUs. Why not a Replica chassis for instance? Or Black Beetle?

[NIK]

27 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

I guess you bought these very cheaply. But still seems like a very complex way of motorising DEMUs/EMUs. Why not a Replica chassis for instance? Or Black Beetle?

Hi,

 

They weren't as cheap as Replica chassis but I wasn't sure if I took off the surround from the Replica chassis that it would be narrow enough for a DC Kits Tadpole unit. I also hadn't tested the Replica with its three pole straight wound motors. It also has a current specification too high for the DCC Decoder range I would like to use. As it turned out the Heljan Class 16 uses a three pole motor albeit skew wound but the Zimo MX634D smoothed out its cogging. I'm also a fan of flywheels on conventionally cored motors to reduce the cogging when uncoupling buckeyes and moving off.

 

The price of Black Beetles was up to £80 at the time when Hattons had the Class 16 in their bargains section and their motor supplier (Mashima?) was in doubt.

Also I did tests on a Black Beetle and it didn't meet the 75 mph top speed of a Tadpole (see diagram).

 

Also you get two gear towers and carden shafts per Class 16 so with the addition of a motor you get a second motor bogie and a bit of chassis block left  to pivot the gear tower from. EDIT you also get a PCB with a 21pin DCC socket and many miniature connectors - a 21 pin breakout PCB is about £10 plus postage. END EDIT

 

Regards

 

Nick

 

Edited February 11, 2019 by NIK

[NIK]

Hi,

 

I went through a running in process on my Heljan Class 16 that had the slowest first lap speed. It was warm to the touch so left it for an hour to cool down before putting it on my test track.

 

Its first lap speed @12V DC (no coaches attached) was more than double that before the running in process and it peaked at 76 mph.

 

So I'm feeling slightly more relaxed about their suitability for use in Tadpoles and Hastings units.

 

I've found instructions on the internet of how to access the gears on a Class 16 so I will try and reduce any friction caused by solid or missing lubricant.

 

 

Regards

 

Nick

 

 

[NIK]

Hi,

 

I was speed testing my seventh Class 16 to see if it was suitable as a donor chassis when its speed started varying slightly and then came almost to a crawl , drew over an amp and smoke came out of the body.

 

I've measured the motor resistance at the plug end of its lead (with DCC blanking plug removed) and its now down to 6.5 ohms. So the motor is probably beyond repair. The DCC blanking plug PCB is charred and the two surface mount inductors have fallen off that PCB.

 

The one flywheel that is accessible seems to turn freely.
 

I had not recorded whether I had run the loco in at medium power before so I may not be able ask Hattons for free help to get it fixed.

 

I think I will inspect all my Class 16s to see if they are properly lubricated and then carefully run them in, recording which locos have been done.  I may try and rig up a current monitor to my PC so I can record the current as the loco runs in. May also fit a current trip to protect the wiring and the PCBs in the loco as well as the body.

 

The attached photo shows the main pcb and the DCC blanking plug turned upside down and the two inductors that fell off.

 

Regards

 

Nick

[NIK]

Hi,

 

I've done some more investigating. I've measured the voltage waveform my Gaugemaster LT Rolling Road (original) gives out.

 

It produces full wave 100hz rectified pulses of up to 21 volts, Because of the low frequency the resultant peak current will be equal to the voltage divided by the winding resistance (the frequency is too low for the motor inductance to reduce the peak current).

 

My loco was at the maximum on the Gaugemaster's speed setting when it faltered and came to a slow crawl - when crawling it seemed smooth so it was unlikely a winding had burnt out. I haven't been able to get the appropriate flywheel off with my gear puller in order to take the motor apart.

 

I found a web site where a failed Class 16 motor had been taken apart and the part with heat damage was around the commutator. The windings appeared intact.

 

I then tested my failed motor at low voltages and the current drawn varied like an overheated varistor.

 

Ring yaristors are starting to be fitted inside motors for model railway use (next to the commutator). They are fitted to reduce brush damage and EMI.

 

It is hard to visually identify if the class 16 motor has a ring varistor since they look very similar to the old commutator to armature interface.

 

The selection guide for ring varistors I found gave the option of selecting a ring varistor with a turn on voltage just over the 12V or 1.2 times 12 volts or 14.4 Volts.

 

In conclusion my DC controller (there are others of similar design) may be producing too high a peak voltage for 12V DC motors.

 

The Heljan Class 16 motor might just be fitted with a ring varistor or alternatively the motor may have gone into magnetic saturation and overheated the brushes.

 

 

Regards

 

Nick

 

 

[NIK]

Hi,

 

I've done some more tests using a bench power supply set to 12 volts.

 

I disconnected one of the power bogies (removed a carden shaft and gears on drive axles at one end) and the first lap speed went up from 50mph to 60mph. The top speed after warming up seems unchanged.

 

So it looks as though in this example the gear tower is adding a bit too much friction.

 

Regards

 

Nick

[NIK]

Hi,

 

With one of my Heljan Class 16 chassis with one bogie disconnected it only did 60 scale mph hauling 5 Bachmann CEP trailing coaches round my third radius test track.

 

I did that to see if I could use Class 16 chassis cut in half to power my MTK 6S Hastings unit. The prototype had a top speed of 75MPH.

 

I typed the loco weight, tractive effort and train weight into my experimental gradient and curve calculator which predicted the one bogie drive barely had enough pull for 5 coaches on 3rd radius curves.

 

I then tried the same test on a club layout Beggarwood Lane as it had more generous curves. Unfortunately the baseboards with the sharpest curves (36" radius) couldn't be put up in time but the train managed 69 scale mph which I think is close enough for me. The chassis span its wheels when the throttle was increased fast so I may try and add some weight to see if I can increase the traction.

 

As the chassis now has DCC Concepts Power Base magnets attached I tried the train on the Powerbase equipped 1 in 40 gradient and it romped up.

 

Regards

 

Nick

 

[GeraldH]

My two Heljan class 16s have been getting progressively slower and require ever more power to get them to move.  It reached the point where nearly full power was required from my Gaugemaster Model D to coax them into life and I was concerned for the motors.  Stripping one of them down completely has revealed that the grease has turned sticky, creating significant resistance.  Cleaning out all the grease and replacing it with a suitable oil seems to have resolved the issue.  Be warned though, dismantling the bogies to access the gears is not for the feint hearted!

[John Tomlinson]

33 minutes ago, GeraldH said:

My two Heljan class 16s have been getting progressively slower and require ever more power to get them to move.  It reached the point where nearly full power was required from my Gaugemaster Model D to coax them into life and I was concerned for the motors.  Stripping one of them down completely has revealed that the grease has turned sticky, creating significant resistance.  Cleaning out all the grease and replacing it with a suitable oil seems to have resolved the issue.  Be warned though, dismantling the bogies to access the gears is not for the feint hearted!

That's very useful feedback.

 

In my post from September 2018 above, I noted a similar issue with a new purchase of what was old stock, namely a congealing of the white grease with age and consequent drag on the motor, potentially leading to burn out.

 

Other feedback on RMweb re. the class 28 CoBo, the Beyer Garratt, and the class 17 Clayton indicate this is an endemic issue with locos of a certain era. Any deterioration in performance should be taken by the owner as a warning signal that trouble is brewing, and that if the mechanism isn't cleaned out and re-lubricated one may well end up with a burnt out motor. I would say to Gerald above that once you've tackled one or two the dismantling gets easier!

 

John.

 

Meant to add that despite the issue noted I do regard all of these as cracking models, the like of which we once wouldn't have dreamt!

Edited December 20, 2019 by John Tomlinson
p.s.

[NIK]

1 hour ago, GeraldH said:

My two Heljan class 16s have been getting progressively slower and require ever more power to get them to move.  It reached the point where nearly full power was required from my Gaugemaster Model D to coax them into life and I was concerned for the motors.  Stripping one of them down completely has revealed that the grease has turned sticky, creating significant resistance.  Cleaning out all the grease and replacing it with a suitable oil seems to have resolved the issue.  Be warned though, dismantling the bogies to access the gears is not for the feint hearted!

Hi,

 

That's a very useful observation and tip.

 

Maybe for those like myself intending to reuse the Class 16 chassis in something else it may have a higher top speed after sorting out the lubrication.

 

Regards

 

Nick

[adb968008]

Ive got to admit dismantling a Heljan bogie gear box is easy enough, putting it back together again needs all the kings horses and all the kings men.

 

it took several attempts, i’m sure I did it the hard way, I cant imagine they assemble it in China in a slow way, but i’d love to know the technique.

 

the instructions below are for a 26/27/33, but others havent been to dissimilar... i think the 17/ 15 i could remove the gear box and assemble it outside the chassis, which is a blessing.

 

The way I did it was..

1. lay the chassis flat on its side, place the retainer into the chassis block side, feed the shaft through it, use blu-tac to secure it.

2. lay the side of the gear box, including gears and position it, inside the chassis, with the pin of the retainer in its “half” of the hole in the gear box top.

3. lay the coupling into its half of the hole in the gear box, held with blutac.

4.lower the worm / shaft into its half of the box, dont bother about the motor end yet.

5. without moving the chassis, the worm, gears, retainer attempt to slide the other half of the box into place in the hole of the block. (Took many attempts, usually ending in everything falling out). When your successful, the coupling and retainer are now “clipped” into their two halfs of a hole thus making a full one, the worms in its hole and the gear box has some small joints hold it in place... just only just.

6. Place the gearbox lid on the gearbox.. (4 clips) and 1 clip for the top of the retainer...this too was easier said than do e.. if the retainer moves, its not horizontal and doesnt sit in the gearbox “holes”.

7. clip in the wheels, then the gearbox base plate.

8. lift out the motor, reset the shaft and position it back in.

 

job done.

 

if someone has an easier way please share.

 

 

Edited December 20, 2019 by adb968008

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

2 hours ago, NIK said:

Maybe for those like myself intending to reuse the Class 16 chassis in something else it may have a higher top speed after sorting out the lubrication...

If the gear train is heavily loaded with grease, then reducing it to a sensible quantity yields about a 30% gain in maximum speed in my experience to date. Models that started out with circa 75mph top speed would then be circa 100mph. That's all on the 'big motor' (mostly CoCo) models that I have looked at because they were sluggardly.

 

I have never bothered with looking at this on my small motored examples as they topped out nicely at scale for circa 60mph, 'just right' for classes 15 and 16, not that I ever saw either type going at their maximum rated speed.