RMweb Gold Captain Kernow Posted July 10, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 10, 2012 CK - can we look forward to a long lost batch of Ivo's photos appearing soon I wonder...."Ivo Peters & The Somerset & Dorset - The Blue Pullman Years" !! Well, I may just have unearthed more evidence.... http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/57737-hartlepool-model-railway-exhibition-Hornby-magazine-live-7th-8th-july-2012/page__pid__734539__st__25#entry734539 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Reid Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 So whose going to be the first to take two expensive (by virtue of size) sets and extensively modify them into one WR set? - ouch! (for fear of course that just as you've finished, out comes the "RTR" version....... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
scorpion Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 the photo of the 8 car set a few posts back has one of the ex midland power cars on it just to mix things up a bit more Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rugd1022 Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 Mike - good point about the OHLE flashes on that power car... more intrigue! Another quick round up / recap of info on the two ex-Midland sets having gone through both of Kevin's BP books again.... The power cars in the July '66 Swindon photos on flickr are M60090 (yellow apron shaped panel) and M60091 (still in original livery with Pullman crest on the nose), The power cars in the November '66 Newbury 'crew training run' photo and Derek Everson's Old Oak shots taken on the 8th of the month are M60092 (yellow apron shaped panel) and M60093 (all over / custard dipped yellow end). So... with the crew training runs out of the way it would appear both units went into Swindon Works to have the 'standard' yellow ends painted, the 'Midland' lettering was painted over, the buffer beam skirt area was opened out above the screw couplings, the MW gear was fitted to the noses and the 'M' prefixes were changed to 'W'. Both units stayed this way until their complete repaints into the reverse corporate grey and blue livery. Whether any of the above makes the slightest bit of difference to any potential purchaser I don't know, but I thought it worth rounding up the info we have gathered so far. What's the betting that once these beautiful models are in the shops, some new photographs or info will suddenly come to light....? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grasslands Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 Mike - good point about the OHLE flashes on that power car... more intrigue! Another quick round up / recap of info on the two ex-Midland sets having gone through both of Kevin's BP books again.... The power cars in the July '66 Swindon photos on flickr are M60090 (yellow apron shaped panel) and M60091 (still in original livery with Pullman crest on the nose), The power cars in the November '66 Newbury 'crew training run' photo and Derek Everson's Old Oak shots taken on the 8th of the month are M60092 (yellow apron shaped panel) and M60093 (all over / custard dipped yellow end). So... with the crew training runs out of the way it would appear both units went into Swindon Works to have the 'standard' yellow ends painted, the 'Midland' lettering was painted over, the buffer beam skirt area was opened out above the screw couplings, the MW gear was fitted to the noses and the 'M' prefixes were changed to 'W'. Both units stayed this way until their complete repaints into the reverse corporate grey and blue livery. Whether any of the above makes the slightest bit of difference to any potential purchaser I don't know, but I thought it worth rounding up the info we have gathered so far. What's the betting that once these beautiful models are in the shops, some new photographs or info will suddenly come to light....? An amazing bit of group deduction, well done chaps. I really like the apron style front panel. I wonder if there is a chance of Bachmann taking such information into account for the final livery of the Pullman, or is it now in too late a stage of development? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 I wonder if there is a chance of Bachmann taking such information into account for the final livery of the Pullman, or is it now in too late a stage of development? Only Bachmann can answer that question. I suspect that it is likely to be too late for this production run given that they have already circulated images of the full yellow end livery. People buying the model who are not on RMWeb (I know, crazy fools ) might be rather suprised at a sudden change in appearance. However it still might be worth mentioning to Bachmann. If the initial run sells well then future runs may be possible and I am sure they would like to know about another valid livery. the photo of the 8 car set a few posts back has one of the ex midland power cars on it just to mix things up a bit more Yes, sets got quite mixed up in the last few years of operation. I am petty sure that the set which ran the special to Plymouth in the early 70s was actually a 5 car unit. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rugd1022 Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 Local lensman Bernard Mills was on hand to capture the Plymouth special on 28/12/70 at Valley Road bridge, Plympton, the photo is in his book ''The 74 Westerns - A Personal Collection'' published by the Diesel Traction Group chaps. As you say Matt it was a five car job using one of the ex-Midland units, though from the angle Bernard took the shot it's hard to tell which vehicle was left out of the set. It was a Holiday Inn Christmas Charter from Paddington to Plymouth and back (1Z03) and had D1032 as pilot over the Devon Banks. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Delamar Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 the blue pullman film linked to earlier was heavily edited, here is the full 20 minute length film, nice shots of it running through the peak district with half white kitchen cars as could be modelled by Bachmann if so wished.. http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=b4e_1309570706 I always want a fry up when watching this film Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted July 11, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 11, 2012 the blue pullman film linked to earlier was heavily edited, here is the full 20 minute length film, nice shots of it running through the peak district with half white kitchen cars as could be modelled by Bachmann if so wished.. http://www.liveleak....=b4e_1309570706 I always want a fry up when watching this film The steak sarnies they served up as one of the high tea menu options were superb - definitely worth the supplement. (and an odd thing about the BP is that on every occasion that I travelled on it I was in the leading power car although only once in the cab). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Delamar Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 stop it im hungry was the leading power car noisy Mike? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted July 11, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 11, 2012 stop it im hungry was the leading power car noisy Mike? I can't remember it as being very noisy Michael (not even in the cab) and it was definitely no problem holding a conversation across a table. The best thing about it was that it was always said that the best riding vehicles were the power cars and it was definitely not a particularly bad ride - but then I never tried any of the other vehicle so can't compare it it with them. I used to regularly travel back up from Cardiff on it when working down there as part of a 'razor gang' in 1968 and the strange thing is how my colleague and I were always booked into the power car - so maybe somebody thought folk travelling on free passes should be exposed to it and the fare paying punters should get a ride elsewhere (we still had to pay the supplement of course). Maybe those who hadn't travelled on it thought the power cars weren't as good for some reason or maybe some passengers thought they were noisy - couldn't really say. From a cab riding viewpoint it was definitely a good ride, even at speed, and running through Swindon and the notorious 'rock & roll' spot on the Up Main at Friars Jcn were both quite o.k. I'm sure also that the good ride for the Driver encouraged them to 'have a go'. My sole footplate trip on one was also Cardiff to Paddington and with a keen Canton Driver who clearly had a brain like a computer when it came to running times because without any (noticeable) speeding he got to Wootton Bassett ideally positioned to be given a run in front of a Bristol and we ran into Paddington 10 minutes before time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Kazmierczak Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 the blue pullman film linked to earlier was heavily edited, here is the full 20 minute length film, nice shots of it running through the peak district with half white kitchen cars as could be modelled by Bachmann if so wished.. http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=b4e_1309570706 I always want a fry up when watching this film Have a look at 12m 10s into the film. Are the double seats on one side of the car red and the single seats on the other side blue? Or is this just a trick of the light? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertcwp Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 Local lensman Bernard Mills was on hand to capture the Plymouth special on 28/12/70 at Valley Road bridge, Plympton, the photo is in his book ''The 74 Westerns - A Personal Collection'' published by the Diesel Traction Group chaps. As you say Matt it was a five car job using one of the ex-Midland units, though from the angle Bernard took the shot it's hard to tell which vehicle was left out of the set. It was a Holiday Inn Christmas Charter from Paddington to Plymouth and back (1Z03) and had D1032 as pilot over the Devon Banks. Was it a 5-car set? There is a photo by D E Canning of the special on the Sea Wall at Dawlish in Classic Diesels and Electrics Number 3 and it is clearly a full 6-car set. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertcwp Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 the photo of the 8 car set a few posts back has one of the ex midland power cars on it just to mix things up a bit more The Bristol Pullman was altered to an 8-car working from October 1971 according to amendments to the carriage workings. It appears from photos and video evidence that the sets were remarshalled so as to produce four 8-car sets. In their final weeks, and possibly for quite some time prior to that, the one normally used on the Bristol Pullman was formed of four vehicles from a 6-car set coupled to four from an 8-car set and thus had three trailer firsts in the middle. The two sets normally used on the South Wales Pullmans each ran with one power car replaced by one from a 6-car set. It appears that the fourth 8-car set was formed similarly to the Bristol Pullman set and acted as spare, though latterly out of use missing one power car. There were also two other power cars and two motor kitchen firsts (from 6-car sets) spare. The 6-car sets had been the last to be given a heavy overhaul, which might explain why their power cars were spread around the operational sets. Photos of all three operational sets in their final weeks appear on my Flickr site - start here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/robertcwp/3786628328/in/set-72157603648710190 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Delamar Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 Have a look at 12m 10s into the film. Are the double seats on one side of the car red and the single seats on the other side blue? Or is this just a trick of the light? looks red to me, just darker because of the light, the seat behind looked blue at first but that was the back of the seat. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Kazmierczak Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 Yes, I think you're right Michael. Looking at the whole film again, sometimes red seats appear blue due to shadows, the movement of the camerman panning and probably my computer monitor too. Thanks, Peter Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Delamar Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 Ive always loved that film, Ive had it on tape since I was a kid, I think thats where my interest in the train and the midland line through the peak district comes from. be very greatful if anyone can point out some of the locations, what depot is it at the beginning? cab shots of it leaving the depot at 7min15 with 2 class 08s visible? Derby? the tunnel it enters at 16.25 with coaches bouncing round? Chinley/New mills area? also at 16.37 is that a Manchester bound train? and any other locations anyone would like to point out Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Ramrig Posted July 12, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 12, 2012 The film is a bit jumbled, but a few quick ones: 16:31 Monsal Head 16:43 Monsal Dale station 16:53 Monsal Head Viaduct 17:05 Ambergate Station. 18:01 Redhill Tunnels? 18:28 Loughborough station 18:30 south of Loughborough station with a quick shot of the old GCR bridge over the Midland line. The shot with the Black 08's in the Sidings is Chaddesden Sidings I believe (may be wrong) More later..................... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 I hope folks intending to buy the blue bogcart were taking notes. Pale blue eggcups, china pattern, marquetry panels, the way the bacon and eggs are presented for table service, girl with a blonde beehive who looks like she has sucked on a lemon, Capt. Mannering lookalikes everywhere... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Ramrig Posted July 12, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 12, 2012 I hope folks intending to buy the blue bogcart were taking notes. Pale blue eggcups, china pattern, marquetry panels, the way the bacon and eggs are presented for table service, girl with a blonde beehive who looks like she has sucked on a lemon, Capt. Mannering lookalikes everywhere... All on order from Bachmann.............................. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rugd1022 Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 Was it a 5-car set? There is a photo by D E Canning of the special on the Sea Wall at Dawlish in Classic Diesels and Electrics Number 3 and it is clearly a full 6-car set. I have the Bernard Mills photo here in front of me Robert and there are definitely only five BP vehicles behind D1032... granted, the shot was taken on a curve but five roofs are clearly visible against the snow on the ground. Are you sure the David Canning shot is of the same working and is the photo dated at all...? (Bearing in mind that by his own admission Canning often got the dates woefully wrong in his published material!). If it is the same working (1ZO3, 28/12/70) then is sounds all the more curious.... and I'm not aware of a second BP working over the South Devon Mainline! In answer to Ramrig's question regarding locations in the BP film, some of the panned shots on the quadrupled section of the Midland Mainline were taken at Souldrop, just north of Sharnbrook Junction, and possibly on the southern side of Sharnbrook as well, before the four tracks become level again just north of Oakley. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Kazmierczak Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 The film Blue Pullman is a very clever piece of work. The more you watch it, the more you see. Lots of subtle touches (washing dishes followed by water troughs) being one of many. To enlarge on Ramrig's locations, apart from the obvious ones of Manchester Central and St Pancras, here are some more: 2m10s - Crossing the River Trent and entering Redhill Tunnel (up) 3m 0s - Etches Park Depot, Derby 7m 15s - Chaddesden South Junction (down) 8m 40s - Duffield (up) 16m 50s - Monsal Dale Viaduct (up) 17m 5s - Ambergate (up) 17m 55s - Leaving Knighton Tunnel and passing Knighton North Jn (up) 18m 15s - Wigston North Jn (up) 18m 25s - Loughborough Midland (up) 19m 10s - Kettering (up) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertcwp Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 I have the Bernard Mills photo here in front of me Robert and there are definitely only five BP vehicles behind D1032... granted, the shot was taken on a curve but five roofs are clearly visible against the snow on the ground. Are you sure the David Canning shot is of the same working and is the photo dated at all...? (Bearing in mind that by his own admission Canning often got the dates woefully wrong in his published material!). If it is the same working (1ZO3, 28/12/70) then is sounds all the more curious.... and I'm not aware of a second BP working over the South Devon Mainline! In answer to Ramrig's question regarding locations in the BP film, some of the panned shots on the quadrupled section of the Midland Mainline were taken at Souldrop, just north of Sharnbrook Junction, and possibly on the southern side of Sharnbrook as well, before the four tracks become level again just north of Oakley. Date given is 28/12/70 but that does not guarantee it is accurate. No doubt about six vehicles or the location or the direction of travel (towards London). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Colin_McLeod Posted July 12, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 12, 2012 Could the five car set be the return working with one coach having been removed because of a failure? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Delamar Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 The film Blue Pullman is a very clever piece of work. The more you watch it, the more you see. Lots of subtle touches (washing dishes followed by water troughs) being one of many. notice the rude table manners of the person at 15min10, seems to annoy the other 3 passengers. the big gent opposite him reminds me of Ronnie Barker. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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